The Government of the United States has collapsed

[Hip octogenarian]

No. The sky is not falling.

Metaphorically speaking, with our democracy in crisis, it can be falling. I hope today's No Kings rallies across the country will help prop it up.

 

[Hip octogenarian]

It's yet to be determined if he's breaking the law or not. When challenged in court he has a ptretty good record.

Don't forget, this isn't the first time a President has sent the National Guard, or even the 101st Airborne, into Democrat run cities to enforce federal law. Democrats, evil then evil today.

The evil Democrats back then, like Strom Thurmond, and Jesse Helms, became evil Republicans. The good guys, like LBJ, remained Democrats. The difference with Eisenhower and Little Rock is that he was upholding the Constitution. Trump is shredding it.

 

[Hip octogenarian]

It collapsed when the DEM committed a Coup and the Status Quo in DC allowed the Coup to happen !
You're a day late and a dollar short....

BUT! Trump is actually fixing a lot of things that will help The Constitution be followed by people in Government.

You don't help the Constitution by trampling on peoples' rights and breaking your oath of office, as Trump does on a daily basis.

 

[Ganondagan]

The evil Democrats back then, like Strom Thurmond, and Jesse Helms, became evil Republicans. The good guys, like LBJ, remained Democrats. The difference with Eisenhower and Little Rock is that he was upholding the Constitution. Trump is shredding it.

No, you're going to have to own it, Eisenhower sent federal tropps into a Democrat run city to enforce federal law and now another Republican President is sending federal agents into another Democrat run city to enforce federal law. Democrats just never learn. Your party was blown out of the water in November and it looks like you're getting worse every day.

 

[NWRatCon]

What coup are you referring to?

What a dream he had...

 

[Mycroft]

Metaphorically speaking, with our democracy in crisis, it can be falling. I hope today's No Kings rallies across the country will help prop it up.

Our democracy isn't in crisis.

There's just a lot of people who don't like the President and the only way they know to voice their dislike is by spouting nonsense like you just did and by running around like Chicken Little like those No Kings idiots.

 

[redbeer]

That is not hyperbole or some hysterical exaggeration. It is, unfortunately, our current reality. That does not mean it is the end of the world, or a time to panic. What it does mean is that we have to seriously consider what happens next, and what we do about it.

What does the thread title mean? Obviously, some elements of "the government" are still functioning - Soldiers are still manning their positions, people are still being arrested and arraigned, Social Security checks are still being delivered - but the US government, as outlined in the Constitution of the United States, is not currently functioning.

The Constitution of the United States has a specific structure, laid out in sequence in its Articles, as clarified and modified by Amendments. Article I outlines the powers of Congress - the legislative branch - in which all of the authority of structuring and operating "The US government" resides. Section 1 specifically says, "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." That branch of the government is not operating - both literally and functionally: Congress is currently not in session, and most of the House is literally not even in town. But, more broadly, the legislature is not functioning as a body and doing its job.

Most of the "Powers" of the legislature, of the government, reside in Section 8 of Article I. Those are most of the authorities of the government itself: To lay taxes, borrow money, direct the expenditures of the US, organize the Executive branch, the military, regulate commerce, determine naturalization (citizenship), create courts, and, most significantly of all: "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." Who is the Boss? Congress.

Congress has abdicated that responsibility - entirely, at this juncture - by not making such laws that are "necessary and proper" and directing the "carrying into Execution" those Powers. Instead, it is allowing the other two branches to intrude upon that authority. The Executive branch - a subordinate branch, mind you, in the structure of the United States government (they are not "co-equal"), which is why it is Article II - is usurping powers clearly denied to it by the Constitution. The Supreme Court (Article III), is creating "doctrine" that clearly does not respect or reflect the actual structure of the government or the provisions of the Constitution itself. Both are simply ignoring the Amendments that protect rights - freedom of speech, of the press, from unreasonable searches and seizures, guarantees of due process and equal protection of the laws - you know, civil rights. And the majority of the Supreme Court is actually abetting the process of dismantling the Constitutional structure.

So, the government of the United States has collapsed. In its stead, others - most unelected - are exercising authority they simply do not possess. It cannot go on like this. Either the structure of the United States will be irrevocably changed, or we, "the people", as a nation, need to reassert our authority expressed in our Constitution and stop this misgovernance and malfeasance.

It is "No Kings Day" again. That's a good start.

Sounds more like a radical democrat's wet dream. Wow, this sure sounds like a call for insurrection......is this your proposal?

 

[Ganondagan]

The evil Democrats back then, like Strom Thurmond, and Jesse Helms, became evil Republicans. The good guys, like LBJ, remained Democrats. The difference with Eisenhower and Little Rock is that he was upholding the Constitution. Trump is shredding it.

A few political leaders like Thurmond and Helms did switch parties where they behaved themselves and were restrained by the Republican party. The overwhelming majority of southern Democrat politicians remained in the Democratic party until the day they died. Southern voters did move to the Republican party beginning well before the 1964 and 65 civil rights legislation and it took decades for the south to become majority Republican. It wasn't until the 1990s that the majority of elected southern federal leaders sent to Washington were Republican. The southern voters turned to the Republican party, not because they were racist, but because they were conservative. The south is not the same today as it was in the early 1900s. Democrat party members don't like that, they prefer their false narrative.

 

[Hip octogenarian]

No, you're going to have to own it, Eisenhower sent federal tropps into a Democrat run city to enforce federal law and now another Republican President is sending federal agents into another Democrat run city to enforce federal law. Democrats just never learn. Your party was blown out of the water in November and it looks like you're getting worse every day.

Trump is not enforcing the law. He is breaking the law. What supposed law is Chicago breaking?

 

[Hip octogenarian]

Our democracy isn't in crisis.

There's just a lot of people who don't like the President and the only way they know to voice their dislike is by spouting nonsense like you just did and by running around like Chicken Little like those No Kings idiots.

Look around and get out of your right wing bubble. Our democracy is very much in crisis.

 

[Perotista]

That is not hyperbole or some hysterical exaggeration. It is, unfortunately, our current reality. That does not mean it is the end of the world, or a time to panic. What it does mean is that we have to seriously consider what happens next, and what we do about it.



Congress has abdicated that responsibility - entirely, at this juncture - by not making such laws that are "necessary and proper" and directing the "carrying into Execution" those Powers. Instead, it is allowing the other two branches to intrude upon that authority. The Executive branch - a subordinate branch, mind you, in the structure of the United States government (they are not "co-equal"), which is why it is Article II - is usurping powers clearly denied to it by the Constitution. The Supreme Court (Article III), is creating "doctrine" that clearly does not respect or reflect the actual structure of the government or the provisions of the Constitution itself. Both are simply ignoring the Amendments that protect rights - freedom of speech, of the press, from unreasonable searches and seizures, guarantees of due process and equal protection of the laws - you know, civil rights. And the majority of the Supreme Court is actually abetting the process of dismantling the Constitutional structure.

So, the government of the United States has collapsed. In its stead, others - most unelected - are exercising authority they simply do not possess. It cannot go on like this. Either the structure of the United States will be irrevocably changed, or we, "the people", as a nation, need to reassert our authority expressed in our Constitution and stop this misgovernance and malfeasance.

It is "No Kings Day" again. That's a good start.

A lot of this is congress’s own fault. Over the years, decades, etc. Congress has ceded more and more power to the executive branch. It has become that those in congress of the president’s party have become more a part of the executive branch than of the institution of congress. Thus, giving or ceding more of congress constitutional powers to the president. Its highly doubtful congress can restore or get back the powers it has given the executive branch over the past decades to restore the proper balance and checks envision by the framers. The framers never thought or foresaw that congress itself would be giving the executive branch more and more of the powers defined in the constitution to congress.

In can be said that past congresses regardless of which party was in control have contributed to what we have today, an ever-powerful presidency where congress is or has becoming more and more irrelevant. As for the shutdown, congress has been an utter failure in passing a budget, all 12 appropriation bills on time. The last time congress accomplished this was in 1996 for FY 1997. So, congress has not only ceded much of their power over these years, congress has failed to do it constitutional duty and do that duty on time. There’s no excuse, congress has a whole year in which to accomplish this constitutional task. It has failed over the last 29 years. We see the end results of all of this today, a president ruling via executive orders like royal decrees, a government shutdown due to congress failures, troops being deployed into our cities and more. All due to congresses ceding of their powers to the executive branch over many, many decades.

 

[Hip octogenarian]

A few political leaders like Thurmond and Helms did switch parties where they behaved themselves and were restrained by the Republican party. The overwhelming majority of southern Democrat politicians remained in the Democratic party until the day they died. Southern voters did move to the Republican party beginning well before the 1964 and 65 civil rights legislation and it took decades for the south to become majority Republican. It wasn't until the 1990s that the majority of elected southern federal leaders sent to Washington were Republican. The southern voters turned to the Republican party, not because they were racist, but because they were conservative. The south is not the same today as it was in the early 1900s. Democrat party members don't like that, they prefer their false narrative.

Racist southerners felt betrayed by the Democratic Party, so they turned to Republicans. Have you noticed that the vast majority of Black office holders in the South, of which, thanks to Democrats, there are many, are Democrats? It wasn't Young Democrats who circulated those vile racist comments. Also, how were Thurmond and Helms restrained by Republicans? They both spewed their racist filth until they died. Trent Lott even praised Thurmond.

 

[Cordelier]

A lot of this is congress’s own fault. Over the years, decades, etc. Congress has ceded more and more power to the executive branch. It has become that those in congress of the president’s party have become more a part of the executive branch than of the institution of congress. Thus, giving or ceding more of congress constitutional powers to the president. Its highly doubtful congress can restore or get back the powers it has given the executive branch over the past decades to restore the proper balance and checks envision by the framers. The framers never thought or foresaw that congress itself would be giving the executive branch more and more of the powers defined in the constitution to congress.

In can be said that past congresses regardless of which party was in control have contributed to what we have today, an ever-powerful presidency where congress is or has becoming more and more irrelevant. As for the shutdown, congress has been an utter failure in passing a budget, all 12 appropriation bills on time. The last time congress accomplished this was in 1996 for FY 1997. So, congress has not only ceded much of their power over these years, congress has failed to do it constitutional duty and do that duty on time. There’s no excuse, congress has a whole year in which to accomplish this constitutional task. It has failed over the last 29 years. We see the end results of all of this today, a president ruling via executive orders like royal decrees, a government shutdown due to congress failures, troops being deployed into our cities and more. All due to congresses ceding of their powers to the executive branch over many, many decades.

In all fairness, I don't think anyone in Congress for all those years envisioned that we'd elect a moron as President.

 

[Ganondagan]

Trump is not enforcing the law. He is breaking the law. What supposed law is Chicago breaking?

Interfering with enforcement of federal law.

Next.

 

[Ganondagan]

Racist southerners felt betrayed by the Democratic Party, so they turned to Republicans. Have you noticed that the vast majority of Black office holders in the South, of which, thanks to Democrats, there are many, are Democrats? It wasn't Young Democrats who circulated those vile racist comments. Also, how were Thurmond and Helms restrained by Republicans? They both spewed their racist filth until they died. Trent Lott even praised Thurmond.

Examples?

 

[BabaVoss]

Trump is stress testing the very idea behind the United States.

 

[Perotista]

In all fairness, I don't think anyone in Congress for all those years envisioned that we'd elect a moron as President.

Regardless of the moron as you put it. It was bound to happen. Especially in today’s modern political era of polarization, the great divide, the super, mega, ultra-high partisanship. Someone would eventually recognize the additional powers congress ceded to the executive and take advantage of them, use them. We’ve been lucky so far, pre-Trump. Even Trump never realized the power he had during his first term, he does now.

 

[NWRatCon]

Regardless of the moron as you put it. It was bound to happen. Especially in today’s modern political era of polarization, the great divide, the super, mega, ultra-high partisanship. Someone would eventually recognize the additional powers congress ceded to the executive and take advantage of them, use them. We’ve been lucky so far, pre-Trump. Even Trump never realized the power he had during his first term, he does now.

I agree. As I noted in the OP:

Congress has abdicated that responsibility - entirely, at this juncture - by not making such laws that are "necessary and proper" and directing the "carrying into Execution" those Powers. Instead, it is allowing the other two branches to intrude upon that authority.

They made themselves vulnerable through their inattention to their responsibilities. But, that has been exacerbated by the ideological extremists on the Supreme Court.

There is a necessary level of deference by Congress to expertise. On many subjects it is simply impossible - or at least impractical - for legislation to be excessively specific. Thus, it is appropriate to create agencies to execute its vision by giving guidance and setting policy goals. The Court's extremists have been intruding upon that balance, arrogating to itself powers the Constitution legitimately gives to Congress.

Congress can regain some of that authority, but it must be specific and aggressive. They need to push back on that distortion.

Similarly, Congress can legitimately limit the executive when it creates agencies - a major fight with the Supreme extremists - by being clear. Both the judiciary and executive are ecological vagaries in legislation (even when they don't exist).

Finally, as you note, they've been shirking their responsibility for core powers - like "advise and consent", and the power of the purse. Much of that is the fault of excessive party-centric exercises of control. Mike Johnson, Mitch McConnell and John Roberts forgot their Constitutional responsibilities were to the nation, not the party.

 

[reflechissez]

It is true. Try protesting forever and not voting if you don't believe me.

A lot! Not unlike the voting impact Maga caused. This isn't rocket scientology.

Be sure to vote.

It is rather naive of you to believe that changes only happen after elections. Constituents pressure their currently-elected reps to take actions. You should study some history.

 

[Hip octogenarian]

Interfering with enforcement of federal law.

Next.

Please be specific. There appears to be no one who was interfering with enforcement of legitimate laws. Merely protesting government overreach is not interfering with anything. Federal law does not allow for masked agents pulling law abiding people, here legally, off the street to be disappeared. The one interfering with the law, as set by the Constitution, is Trump.

 

[Hip octogenarian]

Examples?

Are these enough?

racist quotes from Strom Thurmond and Jesse helms






Both Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms were prominent political figures known for their strong opposition to the Civil Rights Movement and the maintenance of racial segregation.

Here are some quotes attributed to them, particularly concerning race and segregation:

Strom Thurmond (Governor and U.S. Senator from South Carolina)​

Thurmond ran for president in 1948 as a Dixiecrat, advocating for "states' rights" to maintain racial segregation.

• "There's not enough troops in the army, to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the n**-** race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches." (Said in 1948, running for president.)
• "As one who was born and reared in the atmosphere of the old South... I am willing to go as far and make as great a sacrifice to preserve and insure white supremacy in the social, economic, and political life of our state as any man who lives within [South Carolina]." (Said in 1948.)
• In opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1957, Thurmond conducted the longest individual filibuster in Senate history (24 hours and 18 minutes). He described the bill as "bad proposed legislation, which never should have been introduced."

Jesse Helms (U.S. Senator from North Carolina)​

Helms was known for his staunch conservatism and opposition to civil rights legislation throughout his career.

• In 1995, during a TV appearance on CNN's Larry King Live, a caller praised Helms for "everything you have done to help keep down the n**-**," to which Helms replied: "Well, thank you."
• Helms infamously employed a controversial "white hands" advertisement in his 1990 re-election campaign against Harvey Gantt, an African American challenger. The ad showed a white man's hands crumpling a rejection letter and stated: "You needed that job, and you were the best qualified. But they had to give it to a minority because of a racial quota."
• In 1993, Helms reportedly whistled "Dixie" when sharing an elevator with Carol Moseley-Braun, the first African-American woman elected to the U.S. Senate, and later allegedly boasted he would continue to do so until she cried.
• In editorials earlier in his career (1960s), he asked, "Are civil rights only for Negroes?" and questioned the Civil Rights Act by suggesting it infringed upon the rights of white people, saying, "White women in Washington who have been raped and mugged on the streets in broad daylight have experienced

Please make note that there are quotes from 1995 and 1993.

 

[Perotista]

I agree. As I noted in the OP:

They made themselves vulnerable through their inattention to their responsibilities. But, that has been exacerbated by the ideological extremists on the Supreme Court.

There is a necessary level of deference by Congress to expertise. On many subjects it is simply impossible - or at least impractical - for legislation to be excessively specific. Thus, it is appropriate to create agencies to execute its vision by giving guidance and setting policy goals. The Court's extremists have been intruding upon that balance, arrogating to itself powers the Constitution legitimately gives to Congress.

Congress can regain some of that authority, but it must be specific and aggressive. They need to push back on that distortion.

Similarly, Congress can legitimately limit the executive when it creates agencies - a major fight with the Supreme extremists - by being clear. Both the judiciary and executive are ecological vagaries in legislation (even when they don't exist).

Finally, as you note, they've been shirking their responsibility for core powers - like "advise and consent", and the power of the purse. Much of that is the fault of excessive party-centric exercises of control. Mike Johnson, Mitch McConnell and John Roberts forgot their Constitutional responsibilities were to the nation, not the party.

I wouldn’t call it inattention. I think it was more of congress, the members of the president’s party trying to give their president everything he wanted. Even if that meant more power to the executive branch. You have to go all the way back to Sam Rayburn, Mike McCormick, Carl Albert for speakers who would tell the president no, that power rests with congress.

Pelosi at first told Biden no on his student loan forgiveness, that only congress could forgive student debt. But she quickly backtracked. The advise and consent was curtailed by the nuclear option in the senate. Again, congress did that to themselves.

As for putting party over country, certainly the republicans do this. It’s more of putting a single man over country. But for many of us we view both parties as placing party over country. Each major party governs only for their base, not for all of America. Of course, Trump has brought this to new heights and to the extreme. Republicans accused the democrats of using the power of government to eliminate a political opponent, Trump. But Trump and the GOP have also used the power of government to the extreme again to go after their political opponent, seeking revenge, Comey, Jones, Bolton as some examples. Even going after political speech.

 

[bomberfox]

I kinda hope it does collapse so these bastards wont be so protected. We can have our day….

 

[bomberfox]

Are these enough?

racist quotes from Strom Thurmond and Jesse helms






Both Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms were prominent political figures known for their strong opposition to the Civil Rights Movement and the maintenance of racial segregation.

Here are some quotes attributed to them, particularly concerning race and segregation:

Strom Thurmond (Governor and U.S. Senator from South Carolina)​

Thurmond ran for president in 1948 as a Dixiecrat, advocating for "states' rights" to maintain racial segregation.

• "There's not enough troops in the army, to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the n**-** race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches." (Said in 1948, running for president.)
• "As one who was born and reared in the atmosphere of the old South... I am willing to go as far and make as great a sacrifice to preserve and insure white supremacy in the social, economic, and political life of our state as any man who lives within [South Carolina]." (Said in 1948.)
• In opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1957, Thurmond conducted the longest individual filibuster in Senate history (24 hours and 18 minutes). He described the bill as "bad proposed legislation, which never should have been introduced."

Jesse Helms (U.S. Senator from North Carolina)​

Helms was known for his staunch conservatism and opposition to civil rights legislation throughout his career.

• In 1995, during a TV appearance on CNN's Larry King Live, a caller praised Helms for "everything you have done to help keep down the n**-**," to which Helms replied: "Well, thank you."
• Helms infamously employed a controversial "white hands" advertisement in his 1990 re-election campaign against Harvey Gantt, an African American challenger. The ad showed a white man's hands crumpling a rejection letter and stated: "You needed that job, and you were the best qualified. But they had to give it to a minority because of a racial quota."
• In 1993, Helms reportedly whistled "Dixie" when sharing an elevator with Carol Moseley-Braun, the first African-American woman elected to the U.S. Senate, and later allegedly boasted he would continue to do so until she cried.
• In editorials earlier in his career (1960s), he asked, "Are civil rights only for Negroes?" and questioned the Civil Rights Act by suggesting it infringed upon the rights of white people, saying, "White women in Washington who have been raped and mugged on the streets in broad daylight have experienced

Please make note that there are quotes from 1995 and 1993.

Hell i can name the 50+ representatives who swapped parties ever since the civil right act passed.

 

[Ganondagan]

Hell i can name the 50+ representatives who swapped parties ever since the civil right act passed.

Go ahead. Let me start you off with Elbert Guillory





Alsso tell us all the Dixicrats who stayed in the Democratic party until they died.