Democracy V Republic

[James972]

Please provide his quotes where he advocates this.

.

right out of the Communist manifesto and after he honeymooned in the USSR with his 3rd wife!!

Norman Thomas ( socialist presidential candidate)
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.

 

[Individual]

Which is why Brazil has a much higher crime rate than the USA

Because it's so much richer ?




How about comparing the USA with countries that are the most like it ?

US police kill about 70 times the number of people that the countries most like it do.

Which country is more like the USA: Brazil, Somalia, The UK, Afghanistan, The Central African Republic ?

You are talking nonsense.





So US police are forced to kill so many people ... because so many people in the USA ask for it.

And so many people ask for it in the USA because the USA is so rich....if only we were poorer....

Congratulations on the most stupid post this year.




Nope, you just believe it.

You agree then, police killings in Brazil is much worse than the U.S.? Why is that?

You feel Switzerland is most like the U.S.? Population about the same as New York City, area about the same as Massachusetts and Connecticut together, not to mention at all the form of, and how their government works.

Actually, I'm only responding to nonsense.

You seem to feel police in the U.S. are out to kill innocent people for no reason other than the sport of it. How many police are killed in those countries where you claim there are fewer police killings?

IMO much of our problems today are the result of politicians, who for their own benefit instigate division of the people in as many ways as they possibly can, rich vs poor, Black vs white, Hispanic vs white, religious vs non-religious, male vs female, homosexual vs heterosexual, liberal vs conservative, to name but a few which keep us arguing with each other perpetually, and when violent reaction occurs looking for ways to place all blame on the opposition.

I don't necessarily believe anything other than what I see with my own eyes. "Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see." Don't recall who said that, but it and "Actions speak louder than words.", I find more useful in any attempt to make rational judgments.

 

[Individual]

I had a recent discussion with someone on-line. He is an American and states that the USA is not a Democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic.

On YouTube there are a number of videos saying that Democracy is different (and usually inferior) to a Republic.

Are there any US members who actually agree with this ?


For the record I said that a Republic is a form of Democracy (though not all Republics are it is true like the USSR, DDR, PRC, Saddam's Iraq etc)


Thoughts ?

I agree, while there are some similarities, there are also some major differences.

Just some interesting facts, do you know:
The 9 largest States contain 51% of both the population, and the voting age population, but only 241 electoral votes.
The 11 largest States AND either the District of Columbia or any other State would produce a majority of electoral votes needed to win.

Were the U.S. a democracy instead of a republic, Hillary Clinton would be President today.

In a republic the majority does not always rule, the minority sometimes prevails. Sovereignty in a republic begins with the people, who through a democratic process empower their local government to apply limited control over them as a whole, and in turn choose representatives to their State government who through a democratic process empower their State government to apply limited control over them, and prior to the 17th amendment both the people and the States applied a democratic process sending representatives to the Federal government to apply limited control over them. And prior to the 16th amendment, the role of the Federal government required both the people through their representatives in the House and the States through their representatives in the Senate to agree through a democratic process in making any changes at the Federal level of government, the House primarily voting on the wants and the Senate primarily voting on their States ability to tax their citizens to provide the means of funding such changes.

Did Franklin say "A democracy, if you can keep it."? And why not?

 

[Rich2018]

Sanders wants govt to control everything....

Says who ?

Your personal opinion doesn't count

...that is pretty much the idea of communism....

Again, says who?

And again your personal opinion doesn't count.

...are you communist?

No, not that there's much evidence you actually know what a communist is.

...are you in the lessor precommunist category wherein you believe govt has a magical ability to solve problems rather than make them worse?

I guess Donald Trump is a pre-communist by that measure then.

...don't you love the way liberals attacked and destroyed our families and school and took full responsibility?

I love less the way Republicans have tried to destroy democracy in the USA and attacked liberal values and families and starved schools of funding.

...you don’t necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants when children are hungry in this country," Sanders told John Harwood

Hungry children aren't worth worrying about seemingly....or homeless people.
Hell if they're hungry or homeless it's their fault anyway...they should become Republicans and choose from 23 brands of under arm deodorant.

...almost word for word out of the communist manifesto:

"You don’t necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants when children are hungry in this country," Sanders told John Harwood

Word for word eh ???

Republicans, it seems, don't recognize any level that is too low to stoop to...

...are you comfortable that our Democrats have morphed into communists?

QED

...Democrats always had a close relationship with communists....

Norman Thomas ( socialist presidential candidate)...the American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism...

Norman Thomas was a democrat now....the lies keep mounting up.
You are Donald Trump in disguise and I claim my $5

...govt has grown far beyond anything anyone would have believed at $4.5 trillion...

8 years of Bush Jr administration and 2 years of Trump administration.

Must be closet communists....

...right out of the Communist manifesto and after he honeymooned in the USSR with his 3rd wife...

To anyone not keeping up this is a claim that Sanders advocated communism in the USA.

He did not.

James972 just made it up and repeated it to himself so many times he probably thinks it's true...

 

[Rich2018]

You agree then, police killings in Brazil is much worse than the U.S.? Why is that?

Because Brazil is a poor country with endemic poverty and consequently has a crime rate off the scale.

Brazil has responded by militarizing its police who conduct military style raids into the ghettos.

Are you seriously saying the USA is more like Brazil than it like the UK or Australia or Canada or any other Western European democracy ?

...you feel Switzerland is most like the U.S.?

No (though the USA is more like Switzerland than it is like Brazil)

...I'm only responding to nonsense....

Whatever

...you seem to feel police in the U.S. are out to kill innocent people for no reason other than the sport of it....

No, US police are trigger happy
Not that they are out to kill...but they certainly have no qualms about pulling the trigger. Since the spread of body cams and cell phones capable of taking videos we've seen more and more examples of police killing people when there was no threat.

It's as though respect or human life is drilled out of them.

...how many police are killed in those countries where you claim there are fewer police killings?

Very few, because when the police respect the people, the people respect them back.
I've yet to see an armed British policeman gun down and kill a fleeing suspect as happens in the USA

And also there are a lot less guns in those other countries...are you advocating gun control now ?

...IMO much of our problems today are the result of politicians, who for their own benefit instigate division of the people in as many ways as they possibly can, rich vs poor, Black vs white, Hispanic vs white, religious vs non-religious, male vs female, homosexual vs heterosexual, liberal vs conservative, to name but a few which keep us arguing with each other perpetually, and when violent reaction occurs looking for ways to place all blame on the opposition....

So it's all the politicians fault...the murderous US police are just a symptom?

Nice blame shifting.

 

[Rich2018]

I agree, while there are some similarities, there are also some major differences.

Just some interesting facts, do you know:
The 9 largest States contain 51% of both the population, and the voting age population, but only 241 electoral votes.
The 11 largest States AND either the District of Columbia or any other State would produce a majority of electoral votes needed to win.

Were the U.S. a democracy instead of a republic, Hillary Clinton would be President today....

That just shows the USA is a flawed democracy

The UK (which believes itself to be a democracy) once had an election where the victorious Conservative party won less votes than the defeated Labour party.

The democratic process in the USA and UK allows for circumstances where a victorious candidate/party can win with a minority of the votes.

...in a republic the majority does not always rule, the minority sometimes prevails....

UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher won two "landslide" elections in the UK in 1983 and 1987...yet more people voted against her party than for it.

The USA and UK employ a "first past the post" political process...rather than proportional representation seen in most Western European countries...there are flaws in all political processes.

...Sovereignty in a republic begins with the people, who through a democratic process empower their local government to apply limited control over them as a whole, and in turn choose representatives to their State government who through a democratic process empower their State government to apply limited control over them, and prior to the 17th amendment both the people and the States applied a democratic process sending representatives to the Federal government to apply limited control over them. And prior to the 16th amendment, the role of the Federal government required both the people through their representatives in the House and the States through their representatives in the Senate to agree through a democratic process in making any changes at the Federal level of government, the House primarily voting on the wants and the Senate primarily voting on their States ability to tax their citizens to provide the means of funding such changes....

OK

...did Franklin say "A democracy, if you can keep it."? And why not?

IDK, I wasn't alive back then....so AFAIK he may well have done.

 

[Individual]

Because Brazil is a poor country with endemic poverty and consequently has a crime rate off the scale.

Brazil has responded by militarizing its police who conduct military style raids into the ghettos.

Are you seriously saying the USA is more like Brazil than it like the UK or Australia or Canada or any other Western European democracy ?




No (though the USA is more like Switzerland than it is like Brazil)

I'm just saying the U.S. is not really comparable to other countries.

No, US police are trigger happy
Not that they are out to kill...but they certainly have no qualms about pulling the trigger. Since the spread of body cams and cell phones capable of taking videos we've seen more and more examples of police killing people when there was no threat.

It's as though respect or human life is drilled out of them.

While there may be some bad cops, I think the vast majority of them don't fit your description of them at all. Perhaps they need to be shown a little respect when they are simply trying to do their job, and go home to their families at the end of their shift?

Very few, because when the police respect the people, the people respect them back.
I've yet to see an armed British policeman gun down and kill a fleeing suspect as happens in the USA

That works both ways. I've not seen that happen unless the police have been shot at by the fleeing suspect.

And also there are a lot less guns in those other countries...are you advocating gun control now ?

No!

So it's all the politicians fault...the murderous US police are just a symptom?

Nice blame shifting.

Not shifting any blame, just saying it's not all the fault of the police.

 

[Individual]

That just shows the USA is a flawed democracy

There is no flawless form of government.

The UK (which believes itself to be a democracy) once had an election where the victorious Conservative party won less votes than the defeated Labour party.

The democratic process in the USA and UK allows for circumstances where a victorious candidate/party can win with a minority of the votes.

If you want majority rule, apply it at your local level of government. Democracy works best when applied to a small population, and even when wrong, if the majority of people are happy with it those who are not are free to go elsewhere.

UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher won two "landslide" elections in the UK in 1983 and 1987...yet more people voted against her party than for it.

The USA and UK employ a "first past the post" political process...rather than proportional representation seen in most Western European countries...there are flaws in all political processes.

Seems like a good reason to decentralize government more.



OK




IDK, I wasn't alive back then....so AFAIK he may well have done.[/QUOTE]

I'm quite sure he didn't. In fact where in our founding discussions/document do you see the word democracy used?

 

[Rich2018]

I'm just saying the U.S. is not really comparable to other countries....

Yes it is

The USA is comparable with Canada

The USA is comparable with Australia

The USA is comparable with the UK and the rest of Western Europe.

The USA has a major difference with the rest in that it is saturated with guns...there is therefore a lot of gun crime.
(The UK - certainly London - is a more violent place than most of the USA but has almost no gun crime .


The high levels of gun crime (plus higher levels of racial tensions) seeps downward into the police who use their guns more often ...way more often...than police forces from similar countries.

...while there may be some bad cops, I think the vast majority of them don't fit your description of them at all. Perhaps they need to be shown a little respect when they are simply trying to do their job, and go home to their families at the end of their shift?

All countries have their share of bad cops.

And yes their job is hazardous and stressful. But you have to admit that US police kill many more people than similar countries do.

Perhaps US police are on a downward spiral...the more people they kill, the less support they get, the more alienated they feel and the more they feel able to draw their weapons and fire.


It's also interesting that US police refer to the rest of us as "civilians" clearly differentiating themselves - it's like their a military occupying force.

Hello, the police are civilians too !!!

...I've not seen that happen unless the police have been shot at by the fleeing suspect....

You really never heard of this case ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0syS9bI9Xo


The officer got 20 years.

...no...

But you're drawing a correlation between the number of guns and the number of people killed by the police ?

...not shifting any blame, just saying it's not all the fault of the police.

No, some people decide to shoot at cops...

Was Walter Scott to blame for his death ?

 

[Rich2018]

There is no flawless form of government....

I did say that.

...if you want majority rule, apply it at your local level of government. Democracy works best when applied to a small population, and even when wrong, if the majority of people are happy with it those who are not are free to go elsewhere....

Democracy works well in all population sizes.

However, apart from single issue plebiscites like the recent BREXIT vote, direct democracy doesn't work at all in large communities much less a city or national government.
This is why we have Representative Democracy.

...seems like a good reason to decentralize government more....

Huh ?

The point is that you seem to claim that the US republic is some kind of safeguard against the majority always holding sway. It isn't.

There is nothing special about a republic or a constitution. What is special is governments respecting the law.

...I'm quite sure he didn't. In fact where in our founding discussions/document do you see the word democracy used?

Democracy comes from the Greek - the rule of the people.
What are the first three words of the Constitution of the USA ?

 

[Yes_Minister]

So you think its OK to arrest people for saying things that might be "offensive"?

How many people are in prison in Canada due to that?

Meanwhile the US has the highest prison population in the world, higher then China, mostly made up of minorities. Seems like conservatives care about helping the private prison industry then they care about freedom for all.

 

[Yes_Minister]

Govt is now far bigger than ever and what does Sanders want?? Government far bigger still. Ever see a socialist tell you he wants to stop, ever??? The more it fails the more they double down on growing govt.

Conservative small government is a lie. You guys always want to spend money on pointless wars, militarized police, mass incarceration, a stupid border wall and you do nothing relevant to stop corporate welfare.

You guys drive up the debt on purpose through upper class tax cuts and military spending, just to have an excuse to cut social service. Big debt is fine with you guys, as long as its for your pet projects.

Right wingers promote socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor and if do not think that is the end goal if you vote GOP, you are fooling yourself.

You guys just combine big government with big business.

 

[Individual]

Yes it is

The USA is comparable with Canada

The USA is comparable with Australia

The USA is comparable with the UK and the rest of Western Europe.

The USA has a major difference with the rest in that it is saturated with guns...there is therefore a lot of gun crime.
(The UK - certainly London - is a more violent place than most of the USA but has almost no gun crime .


The high levels of gun crime (plus higher levels of racial tensions) seeps downward into the police who use their guns more often ...way more often...than police forces from similar countries.




All countries have their share of bad cops.

And yes their job is hazardous and stressful. But you have to admit that US police kill many more people than similar countries do.

Perhaps US police are on a downward spiral...the more people they kill, the less support they get, the more alienated they feel and the more they feel able to draw their weapons and fire.


It's also interesting that US police refer to the rest of us as "civilians" clearly differentiating themselves - it's like their a military occupying force.

Hello, the police are civilians too !!!




You really never heard of this case ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0syS9bI9Xo


The officer got 20 years.




But you're drawing a correlation between the number of guns and the number of people killed by the police ?




No, some people decide to shoot at cops...

Was Walter Scott to blame for his death ?

The way I look at it is there are good and bad people. And those who are employed as police are people. We need to rid our societies of the bad, regardless of their being ordinary citizens, police, business persons, politicians, etc. On occasion over my life I have been stopped by the police, and the worst experience I ever had was a cop who seemed to dislike young people who drive small sport cars about to ticket me who had difficulty trying to come up with a charge. He finally claimed I made an improper lane change, and walking to the rear of the car my blinker was still flashing. I received a warning instead, and I thanked him and went on my way.

By branding police as bad in general, as you seem to do, while claiming not only instills in others a belief that police are a threat and a defensive or belligerent reaction can sometimes be seen by the police as an offensive and threatening reaction.

 

[Individual]

I did say that.

We agree on something.

Democracy works well in all population sizes.

I disagree.

However, apart from single issue plebiscites like the recent BREXIT vote, direct democracy doesn't work at all in large communities much less a city or national government.
This is why we have Representative Democracy.

Huh?

Huh ?

The point is that you seem to claim that the US republic is some kind of safeguard against the majority always holding sway. It isn't.

But it was, evident by the 10th amendment.

There is nothing special about a republic or a constitution. What is special is governments respecting the law.

Yes, I agree, Federal, State, and local.

Democracy comes from the Greek - the rule of the people.
What are the first three words of the Constitution of the USA ?

"WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

In a Democracy the minority have little voice at all. The majority, right or wrong, makes all the decisions. That is why the U.S.A. was NOT founded a a Democracy, but a Republic instead. Governments powers initiate with the people in their local communities, State Constitutions are created limiting the powers of the State to what the people of the local communities agree to and allow to be imposed upon them by their State, and the U.S. Constitution allowed for the people and States to join by accepting a limited power over them in return for their protection which until 1913 was primarily military and infrastructure.

 

[Yes_Minister]

The way I look at it is there are good and bad people. And those who are employed as police are people. We need to rid our societies of the bad, regardless of their being ordinary citizens, police, business persons, politicians, etc. On occasion over my life I have been stopped by the police, and the worst experience I ever had was a cop who seemed to dislike young people who drive small sport cars about to ticket me who had difficulty trying to come up with a charge. He finally claimed I made an improper lane change, and walking to the rear of the car my blinker was still flashing. I received a warning instead, and I thanked him and went on my way.

By branding police as bad in general, as you seem to do, while claiming not only instills in others a belief that police are a threat and a defensive or belligerent reaction can sometimes be seen by the police as an offensive and threatening reaction.

One can say that individual police officers can be good people, but that the police system is broken and protects bad apples. Maybe reducing the number of police shootings would be a good goal.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/13/17938170/us-police-shootings-gun-violence-homicides

 

[Individual]

One can say that individual police officers can be good people, but that the police system is broken and protects bad apples. Maybe reducing the number of police shootings would be a good goal.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/13/17938170/us-police-shootings-gun-violence-homicides

How would you go about doing that?

 

[Yes_Minister]

How would you go about doing that?

That's a question without an easy answer, some suggestions is better training that focuses on deescalation and the police unions should not protect any real bad actors out there. Stop militarizing the police would be my top suggestion.

 

[Rich2018]

The way I look at it is there are good and bad people....

OK, and can we agree they they are evenly distributed across races and nationalities ?

...those who are employed as police are people....

OK, are you saying that perhaps the ratio of good/bad people employed as policemen varies between countries/states ?

...we need to rid our societies of the bad, regardless of their being ordinary citizens, police, business persons, politicians, etc....

You cannot get rid of bad people.

You can police them and if necessary incarcerate them

People are born the way they are...but they develop according to their environment.

Meaning a person with less fear of the consequences of their actions will probably fear the police/law even less if raised in an unhealthy environment

How do you stop a petulant child from playing with fire? You take away the matches.

...on occasion over my life I have been stopped by the police, and the worst experience I ever had was a cop who seemed to dislike young people who drive small sport cars about to ticket me who had difficulty trying to come up with a charge. He finally claimed I made an improper lane change, and walking to the rear of the car my blinker was still flashing. I received a warning instead, and I thanked him and went on my way...

If you're young and/or non-white the cops will take a different attitude to you then if you're older and white
That is a simple and sad fact

They say a conservative is a liberal who's just been mugged...and a liberal is a conservative who's just been busted by the cops

...by branding police as bad in general, as you seem to do, while claiming not only instills in others a belief that police are a threat and a defensive or belligerent reaction can sometimes be seen by the police as an offensive and threatening reaction.

If you're in the wrong and you admit it and treat the cop with respect, chances are you'll be treated with respect back.

But what if you're not in the wrong...?

Is there a legal way you can stop a cop who is breaking the law ?
I don't think there is

When a cop oversteps his/her authority - as frequently happens - you are literally taking your life in your hands by standing up for your rights.


US cops kill about a thousand people a year...
I've shown you and anyone who's reading examples of cops killing where there is no threat to their life or the lives of others.


That little stat again (post#862): "...from 2010 through 2014, there were 4 fatal police shootings in England, which has a population of about 52 million. By contrast, Albuquerque, NM, with a population 1 percent the size of England’s, had 26 fatal police shootings in that same time period..."


So that city with a pop 1% of England, has a police kill rate over 6 times higher.


Does that not bother you at all.

Do you really not recognize that gun violence is a problem in the USA ?

 

[Rich2018]

...I disagree....

Direct democracy works only in very small groups.

Representative democracy would work in any size population

...but it was, evident by the 10th amendment...

How so ?

How does the 10th amendment protect a minority ?
What did the 10th amendment do to stop slavery for example ?

The Supreme court can, and has, twisted the words of the Constitution to meet political expediency

...WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union...

So the thrust of the Constitution was the rule of the people

The people decide

...in a Democracy the minority have little voice at all. The majority, right or wrong, makes all the decisions....

People keep saying this but in what democracy is this true ?

I have shown that in the UK, the minority often (if not usually) forms the government

Can you give ONE example of the majority passing a law to the detriment of the minority in any democracy...and if you can, can you explain how this couldn't happen in the USA.

...that is why the U.S.A. was NOT founded a a Democracy, but a Republic instead....

Are you saying that a country cannot be a democracy AND a republic ?

Because the Irish and Germans and French would disagree with you

The USA was founded as a Representative Democracy in the form of a Constitutional Republic

 

[gfm7175]

Direct democracy works only in very small groups.

Direct Democracy never works. It always dissolves and becomes a different form of government, typically an oligarchy or a dictatorship.

Representative democracy would work in any size population

Representative Democracy never works. It always dissolves and becomes a different form of government, typically an oligarchy or a dictatorship.

How so ?

How does the 10th amendment protect a minority ?
What did the 10th amendment do to stop slavery for example ?

That's not the purpose of the 10th Amendment... I suggest reading the Constitution over again...

The Supreme court can, and has, twisted the words of the Constitution to meet political expediency

SCOTUS has no such power.

So the thrust of the Constitution was the rule of the people

Incorrect. The Constitution rules, NOT the people...

The people decide

No, they don't...

People keep saying this but in what democracy is this true ?

In any Democracy... 'rule of men' is literally what a Democracy is... It is mob rule, by definition.

I have shown that in the UK, the minority often (if not usually) forms the government

The UK is NOT a Democracy.

Can you give ONE example of the majority passing a law to the detriment of the minority in any democracy...and if you can, can you explain how this couldn't happen in the USA.

An example would be any past Democracy before it's inevitable destruction... This can't happen in the USA because the USA is not a Democracy.

Are you saying that a country cannot be a democracy AND a republic ?

Correct. They are two opposing forms of government... A Democracy is 'mob rule' and a Republic is 'constitutional rule'... Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece make these two terms very clear...

Because the Irish and Germans and French would disagree with you

Those are not Democracies...

The USA was founded as a Representative Democracy in the form of a Constitutional Republic

Wrong. The USA was founded as a Federated Republic. A Republic since it is 'constitutional rule' and Federated because there are multiple layers of Republics...

Republics can be a representative form of government as well, as the USA Republic is... There is no Democracy involved here...

 

[James972]

Wrong. The USA was founded as a Federated Republic. A Republic since it is 'constitutional rule' and Federated because there are multiple layers of Republics...

Republics can be a representative form of government as well, as the USA Republic is... There is no Democracy involved here...

to be thorough, USA was founded as federated democratic constitutional republic. People vote here so obviously there is a democratic feature!

 

[Individual]

OK, and can we agree they they are evenly distributed across races and nationalities ?

Do you have numerical data, proven correct to support that?

OK, are you saying that perhaps the ratio of good/bad people employed as policemen varies between countries/states ?

I've not said that, have I?

You cannot get rid of bad people.

You can police them and if necessary incarcerate them

People are born the way they are...but they develop according to their environment.

Meaning a person with less fear of the consequences of their actions will probably fear the police/law even less if raised in an unhealthy environment

How do you stop a petulant child from playing with fire? You take away the matches.

I hope you're not going to suggest we ban matches.

If you're young and/or non-white the cops will take a different attitude to you then if you're older and white
That is a simple and sad fact

They say a conservative is a liberal who's just been mugged...and a liberal is a conservative who's just been busted by the cops

I think this is becoming nothing more than a waste of both your time and mine.

If you're in the wrong and you admit it and treat the cop with respect, chances are you'll be treated with respect back.

But what if you're not in the wrong...?

Is there a legal way you can stop a cop who is breaking the law ?
I don't think there is

When a cop oversteps his/her authority - as frequently happens - you are literally taking your life in your hands by standing up for your rights.


US cops kill about a thousand people a year...
I've shown you and anyone who's reading examples of cops killing where there is no threat to their life or the lives of others.


That little stat again (post#862): "...from 2010 through 2014, there were 4 fatal police shootings in England, which has a population of about 52 million. By contrast, Albuquerque, NM, with a population 1 percent the size of England’s, had 26 fatal police shootings in that same time period..."


So that city with a pop 1% of England, has a police kill rate over 6 times higher.


Does that not bother you at all.

Do you really not recognize that gun violence is a problem in the USA ?

As long as criminals find the reward greater than the risk in the U.S. the police will likely find their lives at risk resulting in occasional shootings of people who presented themselves in a way that appeared threatening. Sorry, but I'll side with the police in most cases, while agreeing that sometimes and innocent person gets shot that 'probably' shouldn't have been.

 

[Individual]

Direct democracy works only in very small groups.

I agree.

Representative democracy would work in any size population

I disagree.

How so ?

How does the 10th amendment protect a minority ?
What did the 10th amendment do to stop slavery for example ?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
The 10th amendment protects smaller populated States from being imposed upon by rules primarily beneficial to larger populated States.
The 10th amendment had nothing to do with slavery, and the 14th amendment resulted in ending slavery in all the States.

The Supreme court can, and has, twisted the words of the Constitution to meet political expediency

The Supreme court is but 9 persons, who can either apply the Constitution as written or by a democratic majority consisting of 5 persons in a Nation of over 325,000,000 meet the political expediency of the party under whom they were appointed.

So the thrust of the Constitution was the rule of the people

The people decide

And just above you admitted that just 5 people are able to make the ultimate decision.

People keep saying this but in what democracy is this true ?

I have shown that in the UK, the minority often (if not usually) forms the government

Can you give ONE example of the majority passing a law to the detriment of the minority in any democracy...and if you can, can you explain how this couldn't happen in the USA.

The UK government is quite different, so I don't even attempt to make comparisons with our form of government.

Are you saying that a country cannot be a democracy AND a republic ?

Because the Irish and Germans and French would disagree with you

The USA was founded as a Representative Democracy in the form of a Constitutional Republic

Our country, the U.S.A. is a republic, comprised of 50 republics (States). A democratic process is used as the means of selecting representatives to all our governments local, State, and Federal.

It matters not if Irish, Germans, and French agree or disagree with me on our government.

 

[Rich2018]

Direct Democracy never works....

You're not listening

Direct democracy works only in SMALL groups. ie: much smaller than a city - so NO government involved

...Representative Democracy never works....

It's been working well enough in the USA for over 200 years
It's worked just fine in the UK for centuries
It's working just fine in Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands....etc

...that's not the purpose of the 10th Amendment...

Oh so what part of the Constitution prevented slavery ?

How long was the USA a republic before slavery was made illegal ?

Why didn't the Constitution protect those enslaved up to that point ? I mean if the USA was a republic and if people can't be oppressed in a republic ... how did slavery exist ?
While you're at it, why was a Civil Rights movement necessary if the USA was a republic ?

I suggest you read some history of your OWN country before making assertions about what a republic does or does not do.

...SCOTUS has no such power....

Then you're clearly unaware of the Supreme Court's rulings on gun ownership and the penalty for failing to complete a census form to name but two times it has twisted the words of the Constitution - the "interpretation" of which is it's main function BTW

Again I suggest you read up on the history of your OWN country.

...incorrect. The Constitution rules, NOT the people...

Nope, the people rule

The people can change the Constitution....the people can rip up the Constitution and write a new one from scratch.

Again read the Constitution, it details exactly how the whole Constitution can be scrapped and replaced with another one.

...No, they don't...

See above

...in any Democracy... 'rule of men' is literally what a Democracy is... It is mob rule, by definition....

Nope, "demos" means "people" not "men"

The first three words of the Constitution are "WE THE PEOPLE..."

It is in the people's name that the Constitution (and any law passed in the USA) is enacted

Rule by the people is NOT mob rule. Mob rule doesn't exist in any stable government - ever.
If you claim mob rule exists, tell me where and when. Your silence will be deafening.

...the UK is NOT a Democracy...

Wrong it most definitely is

"The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy based on universal adult suffrage. It is also a constitutional monarchy..."

Government in the United Kingdom |UK Democracy


Your personal opinion is irrelevant - if you want to make some wild claim that the UK is not a democracy, then please quote a reputable source.
NB: Your opinion is NOT a reputable source

...an example would be any past Democracy...

Shouldn't be hard to name one then...
Dodge noted

Again you give YOUR worthless opinion as fact

...USA is not a Democracy....

Yes it is...and it always has been.

To be precise it has always been a Representative Democracy

...correct. They are two opposing forms of government...

A Democracy is 'mob rule' and a Republic is 'constitutional rule'... Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece make these two terms very clear...

A democracy is not mob rule.

Ireland and Germany for example state that they are republics AND democracies

You clearly do not understand basic political terms and have never studied politics at all

...those are not Democracies...

They say they are

They are right

Again you clearly don't understand political terms....

...wrong. The USA was founded as a Federated Republic. A Republic since it is 'constitutional rule' and Federated because there are multiple layers of Republics...

There are or can be multiple layers in a democracy

The USA for example is a democracy and has a multi-layered structure of mixed government

The USA was created as a Representative Democracy in the form of a Republic
The only difference was that the head of state was elected rather than chosen by birth right

...Republics can be a representative form of government as well, as the USA Republic is... There is no Democracy involved here...

When a country adopts a representative form of government - it is called a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY

Go look it up.

 

[Rich2018]

Do you have numerical data, proven correct to support that?

No, I was asking if you agree to that premise

Do you ?

...I've not said that, have I?

It sounded as if you were saying exactly that

So what are you saying with regard to explaining the different propensities for policemen to kill suspects ?

And it can't be because police in the UK are not armed - because many are.
Moreover police in most European countries are armed yet do not kill their people at anything like the rate (up to 70 times higher) than US police do

Why are US police so deadly ?

...I hope you're not going to suggest we ban matches....

Did I say that we should ban matches?

What would be your solution if your found your children (if you have any) playing with fire ?

...I think this is becoming nothing more than a waste of both your time and mine....

Arguing against logic usually promotes such thoughts

...as long as criminals find the reward greater than the risk in the U.S. the police will likely find their lives at risk resulting in occasional shootings of people who presented themselves in a way that appeared threatening. Sorry, but I'll side with the police in most cases, while agreeing that sometimes and innocent person gets shot that 'probably' shouldn't have been.

Correct

Society rules by fear.

If you do not fear the consequences of your actions, there's no motivation to stop you doing them.

Siding with the police and giving them "carte blanche" to kill anyone they want is a dangerous position to take.

As the Roman poet Juvenal wrote, "Who will guard the guards themselves?"