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defeat them abroad before they attack us at home.

vandree

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"Our mission in Iraq is clear. We're hunting down the terrorists. We're helping Iraqis build a free nation that is an ally in the war on terror. We're advancing freedom in the broader Middle East. We are removing a source of violence and instability, and laying the foundation of peace for our children and our grandchildren."
President Bush (06/28/2005)


He must be talking of a different Iraq or a different war.....

International Consensus: Bush Terrorism Strategy Failing
Increasingly, President Bush is becoming more isolated in his view that the Iraq war is stemming the progress of global terror. Three separate intelligence reports – the British intelligence agency, a Saudi intelligence analysis, and an Israeli report – contradict Bush’s view that we have to “defeat them abroad before they attack us at home.” The emerging consensus is that the occupation of Iraq is inspiring people around the world to join the ranks of the terrorists:

“A team of MI5 analysts concludes: ‘Though [terrorists] have a range of aspirations and ‘causes’, Iraq is a dominant issue for a range of extremist groups and individuals in the UK and Europe.’” [Sunday Times (London), 7/28/05]

“The findings of an investigation, to be published soon, into 300 young Saudis, caught and interrogated by Saudi intelligence on their way to Iraq to fight or blow themselves up, shows that very few had any previous contact with al-Qa’ida or any other terrorist organisation previous to 2003. It was the invasion of Iraq which prompted their decision to die.” [The Independent, 7/24/05]

“The Israeli Global Research in International Affairs Center reported earlier this year that Iraq ‘has turned into a magnet for jihadi volunteers.’ But not established terrorists. Rather, explains report author Reuven Paz, ‘the vast majority of Arabs killed in Iraq have never taken part in any terrorist activity prior to their arrival in Iraq.’” [Copley News Service, 7/26/05]

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/07/29/strategy-failing/

It looks to me that the violence has increased dramatically. This is a list of attacks that took place yesterday and today in Iraq:

BAGHDAD - A suicide car bomb exploded at a police checkpoint in Baghdad, killing at least five people and wounding 20, police said. The checkpoint was near the Iraqi National Theatre in the central Karrada district.

BASRA - A roadside bomb blew up beside a British consulate convoy in the southern city of Basra, killing two Britons working for a private security firm, a consular spokeswoman and the company said.

MOSUL - The casualty toll from a suicide bombing of Iraqi army recruits in the northern Iraq town of Rabia on Friday rose to 40 dead and 57 wounded, police said.

BAGHDAD - A prominent Sunni Arab leader escaped an assassination attempt in Baghdad and his bodyguard was wounded, said a spokesman for his group, The Iraqi National Dialogue. BAGHDAD - The bodies of three people who were blindfolded and shot were discovered in the Hay al-Amil area of Baghdad. Police said the three men were Baghdad Airport employees kidnapped by insurgents a few days earlier in the capital.

MAHMUDIYA - A roadside bomb killed an Iraqi civilian and wounded three in a car on a road south of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb targeting a U.S. military convoy killed one Iraqi civilian in the Doura district of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - An Iraqi health ministry official, Eman Naji, was kidnapped by gunmen who stormed her home in the capital's upscale district of Mansour, police said.

*BAGHDAD - A suicide bomber attacked a U.S. convoy in the western city of Hit in Anbar, wounding four Marines, the U.S. military said in a statement.

BAGHDAD, July 31 (Reuters) - Following are security incidents reported in Iraq on Sunday, July 31, as of 1640 GMT. U.S. and Iraqi forces are battling a Sunni Arab insurgency against the Shi'ite and Kurdish-led government in Baghdad.

An asterisk denotes a new or updated item.

HASWA - A car bomb exploded at an Iraqi police checkpoint south of Baghdad, killing seven civilians and wounding 12, police said.

The attack occurred about 50 km (30 miles) south of Baghdad near the town of Haswa, the police department in nearby Hilla said. The explosives-packed vehicle had been left by the side of the road, near the checkpoint, and was detonated remotely.

Three of the wounded were policemen. * MAHAWIL - Gunmen ambushed a convoy from Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress party, killing one security guard and wounding three, an aide to Chalabi said.

Entifadh Qanbar told Reuters a large convoy carrying an international delegation was attacked as it drove through the town of Mahawil on the way to the southern city of Kerbala. Chalabi was not in the convoy, Qanbar said.

BAQUBA - Gunmen opened fire on a group of cooks leaving a military base in Baquba, killing one and wounding three in the town 65 km (40 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

KIRKUK - An Iraqi translator for the U.S. military was shot dead by gunmen as he was leaving his house in Kirkuk, 250 km (150 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

BAIJI - Insurgents attacked a minibus transporting Iraqi civilians working at an American base, killing three and critically wounding three in Baiji, 180 km (110 miles) north of Baghdad, on Saturday night.

KUFA - Gunmen opened fire on the convoy of Ibrahim Issawi, senior adviser to the environment minister, killing one of his security guards and wounding three on Saturday, the Defence Ministry said in a statement.

The attack took place in the southern Shi'ite town of Kufa, about 160 km (100 miles) south of Baghdad.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/KHA024950.htm
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L31187274.htm
 

cnredd

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OK...

Now take the number of deaths & casualties and add them up to get your totals....

Now look at this webpage...

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

This is the New York State Crime Rate 1960-2000....(couldn't find a later source)

There have been 23 years in that chart that have had more viloent deaths than the number of soldiers KIA in Iraq in the last 2+ years.

This is in a state with less than 19 million people...Iraq had 22 million at the start of the war...it would have been a few hundred thousand more if their leader didn't have a thing for mass graves.

Now I know that you can point out other statistics in this webpage, or maybe even other sources, where violence is less or this page isn't including civilian or terrorists' deaths, but that is not the overall point.

The overall point is that you would expect Iraq to be hundreds of times more violent than a State that is currently not at war and doesn't have any ongoing military conflicts....That is simply not the case.

So point out all of the incidents that happen in Iraq...Now think how much hard drive space would be used up if I were to point out every incident of violent deaths in the State of New York just in the year 1993.....2420...a state NOT at war.

You're right....we shouldn't be in Iraq....We should be in New York...
 

cnredd

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vandree said:
“A team of MI5 analysts concludes: ‘Though [terrorists] have a range of aspirations and ‘causes’, Iraq is a dominant issue for a range of extremist groups and individuals in the UK and Europe.’” [Sunday Times (London), 7/28/05]
So let me get this straight...There used to be 237 reasons for terrorism, and they point out there is now 238...thanks.

vandree said:
"The findings of an investigation, to be published soon, into 300 young Saudis, caught and interrogated by Saudi intelligence on their way to Iraq to fight or blow themselves up, shows that very few had any previous contact with al-Qa’ida or any other terrorist organisation previous to 2003. It was the invasion of Iraq which prompted their decision to die.” [The Independent, 7/24/05]
Was it their decision based on their on personal views or was it their decision based on what extremist Clerics and Omars have been telling them in state-run mosques?

vandree said:
“The Israeli Global Research in International Affairs Center reported earlier this year that Iraq ‘has turned into a magnet for jihadi volunteers.’ But not established terrorists. Rather, explains report author Reuven Paz, ‘the vast majority of Arabs killed in Iraq have never taken part in any terrorist activity prior to their arrival in Iraq.’” [Copley News Service, 7/26/05]
And is the assumption here concluding that, if not for Iraq, they would have all been walking around waving the US flag and working as volunteers at the local missionary? If they've "never taken part" before Iraq, where does it mention that they would have "never taken part" in any upcoming events that may have happened?
 

Simon W. Moon

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cnredd said:
The overall point is that you would expect Iraq to be hundreds of times more violent than a State that is currently not at war and doesn't have any ongoing military conflicts....That is simply not the case.
You compared the deaths of a population of Coalition forces with the death rates of a much larger population, New York. So, even if the population of New york all wore flak jackets and travelled armed in armored humvees to better approximate the conditions of the military in Iraq, the rate of deaths would still be about fifteen times higher because the population of New York is about fifteen times that of the forces that have rotated through Iraq. Or about one hundred fifty times higher if you only count the military on the ground and thus with the potential to be killed in Iraq at any one time.
 

AliG

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Bottom line -War is ugly...we should avoid it...this didnt happen..Bush is a warmonger...1,000 of soldiers are dead and 100,000 of civilians...
 

Pacridge

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Simon W. Moon said:
You compared the deaths of a population of Coalition forces with the death rates of a much larger population, New York. So, even if the population of New york all wore flak jackets and travelled armed in armored humvees to better approximate the conditions of the military in Iraq, the rate of deaths would still be about fifteen times higher because the population of New York is about fifteen times that of the forces that have rotated through Iraq. Or about one hundred fifty times higher if you only count the military on the ground and thus with the potential to be killed in Iraq at any one time.

I was going to post something like this but then I saw your post. You say it better then I could have any way.

Brit Hume (maybe another talking head on Fox?) made this same comparison several months back. Only he used California instead of NY. Same basic problem with the logic and the stats. He ended his comments with something to the effect of "see it safer in Iraq then it is in LA." I think all those who think Iraq is so safe should head that way ASAP. Sounds like there's lots of work to be done. Don't even have too join the Marines to go either. KBR (Halliburton) hiring everyone from Truck Drivers to street sweepers. Here's a web site to get you on your way to a place safer then NY.

http://www.halliburton.com/kbr/kbrCareers/index.jsp

If you live near Houston, Charlotte or San Antonio you could even attend one of their "Recruiting Events." The pay is not bad either. And apparently a very safe place to be.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Pacridge said:
Brit Hume (maybe another talking head on Fox?) made this same comparison several months back. Only he used California instead of NY. Same basic problem with the logic and the stats. He ended his comments with something to the effect of "see it safer in Iraq then it is in LA."
That exact comparison found its way here top this board.
 

vandree

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My point was that the violence in Iraq has been escalating. It doesn't matter that the murder rate in New York is higher than in Iraq: that doesn't disprove the fact that in Iraq there is more violence now than there was 2 years ago.
Quite frankly if I lived in Iraq I wouldn't dare sticking my nose out of the door... I also think that the media shouldn't sugar coat the effects and consequences of a war. War means death and destruction and this is what Iraq looks like now:
(warning some pictures are pretty graphic on all sites)

http://crisispictures.org/
http://www.iraqvictims.com/
http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/
http://www.thenausea.com/usa-iraq.html
 

akyron

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cnredd said:
OK...

Now take the number of deaths & casualties and add them up to get your totals....

Now look at this webpage...

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

This is the New York State Crime Rate 1960-2000....(couldn't find a later source)

There have been 23 years in that chart that have had more viloent deaths than the number of soldiers KIA in Iraq in the last 2+ years.

This is in a state with less than 19 million people...Iraq had 22 million at the start of the war...it would have been a few hundred thousand more if their leader didn't have a thing for mass graves.

Now I know that you can point out other statistics in this webpage, or maybe even other sources, where violence is less or this page isn't including civilian or terrorists' deaths, but that is not the overall point.

The overall point is that you would expect Iraq to be hundreds of times more violent than a State that is currently not at war and doesn't have any ongoing military conflicts....That is simply not the case.

So point out all of the incidents that happen in Iraq...Now think how much hard drive space would be used up if I were to point out every incident of violent deaths in the State of New York just in the year 1993.....2420...a state NOT at war.

You're right....we shouldn't be in Iraq....We should be in New York...

LA and Chicago are just as bad. Call in the artillery!
 

akyron

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AliG said:
Bottom line -War is ugly...we should avoid it...this didnt happen..Bush is a warmonger...1,000 of soldiers are dead and 100,000 of civilians...


.....Troll
 

Simon W. Moon

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akyron said:
LA and Chicago are just as bad. Call in the artillery!
The death rate (deaths per 100,000) is more than one hundred times higher for our forces in Iraq than it is for the citizens of New York.

I guess you missed that.


Also, apparently the word in the American intel community's that the gist of the OP is true. Examine.


Testimony of Director of Central Intelligence Porter J. Goss Before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
16 February 2005
Islamic extremists are exploiting the Iraqi conflict to recruit new anti-US jihadists.
These jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced in and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of contacts to build transnational terrorist cells, groups, and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries.


http://www.foia.cia.gov/2020/2020.pdf
• Anti-globalization and opposition to
US policies could cement a greater
body of terrorist sympathizers,
financiers, and collaborators.
societies.
• Iraq and other possible conflicts in
the future could provide recruitment,
training grounds, technical skills and
language proficiency for a new class
of terrorists who are “professionalized”
and for whom political
violence becomes an end in itself.


Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication
Worldwide anger and discontent are directed at America’s tarnished credibility[!] and ways the U.S. pursues its goals[!].

"The information campaign — or as some still would have it, “the war of ideas,” or the struggle for “hearts and minds” — is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective ... But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists ...
Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering.

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah ... to broad public support.

What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.
'New militant threat' from Iraq
The insurgency in Iraq is creating a new type of Islamic militant who could go on to destabilise other countries, a leaked CIA report says.

The classified document says Iraqi and foreign fighters are developing a broad range of skills, from car bombings and assassinations to co-ordinated attacks.

It says these skills may make them more dangerous than fighters from Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

And the threat may grow when the Iraq insurgency ends and fighters disperse.

The broad conclusions of the report have been confirmed by an unnamed CIA official and are said to have been widely circulated in the intelligence community.

Iraq May Be Prime Place for Training of Militants, C.I.A. Report Concludes
A new classified assessment by the Central Intelligence Agency says Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda's early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat.

They said the assessment had argued that Iraq, since the American invasion of 2003, had in many ways assumed the role played by Afghanistan during the rise of Al Qaeda during the 1980's and 1990's, as a magnet and a proving ground for Islamic extremists from Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.

Iraq a site to train terrorists, CIA says
The CIA believes the Iraq insurgency poses an international threat and may produce better-trained Islamic terrorists than the 1980s Afghanistan war that gave rise to Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, officials said yesterday.
Once the insurgency ends, Islamic militants are likely to disperse as highly organized battle-hardened combatants capable of operating throughout the Arab-speaking world and in other regions including Europe.

The May report, which has been widely circulated in the intelligence community, also cites a potential threat to the United States.

Although the Afghan war against the Soviets was largely fought on a rural battlefield, the CIA report said, Iraq is providing extremists with more comprehensive skills including training in operations devised for populated urban areas.
 
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