Deconversion

[Catz Part Deux]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQJrud71gL8"]YouTube- 2.6 Deconversion: The End[/ame]

How it happens...

 

[digsbe]

I de-converted once, I realized I was wrong and came back to my faith in Christ.

 

[First Thought]

I de-converted once, I realized I was wrong and came back to my faith in Christ.

Realized you were wrong?

 

[digsbe]

Realized you were wrong?

*I hope no offense is taken by this post, I mean to offend no one*

I was a Christian and figured that God didn't exist, so therefore I became an atheist. I lived as an atheist for a couple of years and realized that atheism is wrong, I also came to an understanding that Christianity is the truth, and therefore I became a Christian. Basically, Christian (as a child) -> atheist -> Christian.

 

[First Thought]

*I hope no offense is taken by this post, I mean to offend no one*

I was a Christian and figured that God didn't exist, so therefore I became an atheist. I lived as an atheist for a couple of years and realized that atheism is wrong, I also came to an understanding that Christianity is the truth, and therefore I became a Christian. Basically, Christian (as a child) -> atheist -> Christian.

I'm glad Christianity is working out for you. I think it's a bit bold to call it "the truth," though. :shrug:

 

[digsbe]

I'm glad Christianity is working out for you. I think it's a bit bold to call it "the truth," though. :shrug:

I agree that it's a bit bold to say that (hence my mini disclaimer). I believe in absolutes though, and I do believe it's the truth (so I guess my beliefs are bold too). However I don't want to act arrogant or judgmental like some other Christians do.

 

[First Thought]

I agree that it's a bit bold to say that (hence my mini disclaimer). I believe in absolutes though, and I do believe it's the truth (so I guess my beliefs are bold too).

Fair enough. I've never felt it necessary to proclaim my beliefs as "the truth," simply because I think that human beings lack the ability to fully grasp our existence and the meaning(or lack thereof) of it.

However I don't want to act arrogant or judgmental like some other Christians do.

Good. Nominal Christians are a joke!

 

[John Doe]

*I hope no offense is taken by this post, I mean to offend no one*

I was a Christian and figured that God didn't exist, so therefore I became an atheist. I lived as an atheist for a couple of years and realized that atheism is wrong, I also came to an understanding that Christianity is the truth, and therefore I became a Christian. Basically, Christian (as a child) -> atheist -> Christian.

How did you come to your understanding?

Also, I'm curious why you believe in absolutes. I don't believe knowledge is possible, so I'm curious.

 

[digsbe]

How did you come to your understanding?

Also, I'm curious why you believe in absolutes. I don't believe knowledge is possible, so I'm curious.

Well, I based my atheism firmly on science and philosophical arguments against the existence of God. I realized that science demands a creator, that there must be a metaphysical and something beyond the laws of science. The universe is too orderly to have been chaotically and randomly spawned from a nothingness. What we live in is a creation, and like all creations it needs a creator. This helped me understand and believe that a higher power exists. More specifically I believed in Christianity because the Bible is proven true through archeology and other areas of science and history (which can be argued, but looking at the facts presented I do strongly believe that science and history support the Bible). Also, the Holy Spirit led my heart to Christ through a series of events. I came to the belief that there is a God, and that because there is a God there must be a truth about God, and I believe that truth is Christianity. If you want I can explain more through PMs (I don't want to change the focus of the thread or hijack it).

Also, I believe in absolutes mainly because of my faith, but also because philosophically it makes sense. There are some things that are absolutes, we can have opinions and perceptions, but there is only 1 ultimate truth that we have an opinion about and perceive. I don't think truth is relative nor is truth dictated by humanity, I believe truth was set down by God. One reason I don't think truth is relative though is because there are some paradoxes to that statement. If truth is relative then all truths should be equal. If truth is based on what we believe it to be, then one person's truth is equal to another person's truth. They both base their truth on experience, perceptions, and things they already know and believe. If all truth is equal though, then what happens when one person's truth contradicts another? What if someone believes when we die we are re-incarnated while another believes in a personal afterlife? Who is right? They can't both be right, because for one person to be right the other must be wrong. Reality doesn't operate based on how we want it to, reality is unchanging regardless of what our opinions of truth are. One can believe that the sky is green, and it may be his truth, but reality will always remain absolute regardless of what this person believes. We can hold an opinion about something, but our opinion doesn't alter or shape what reality and truth really are. In essence, they are absolutes independent of our opinions or beliefs.

 

[John Doe]

Well, I based my atheism firmly on science and philosophical arguments against the existence of God. I realized that science demands a creator, that there must be a metaphysical and something beyond the laws of science. The universe is too orderly to have been chaotically and randomly spawned from a nothingness. What we live in is a creation, and like all creations it needs a creator. This helped me understand and believe that a higher power exists. More specifically I believed in Christianity because the Bible is proven true through archeology and other areas of science and history (which can be argued, but looking at the facts presented I do strongly believe that science and history support the Bible). Also, the Holy Spirit led my heart to Christ through a series of events. I came to the belief that there is a God, and that because there is a God there must be a truth about God, and I believe that truth is Christianity. If you want I can explain more through PMs (I don't want to change the focus of the thread or hijack it).

Also, I believe in absolutes mainly because of my faith, but also because philosophically it makes sense. There are some things that are absolutes, we can have opinions and perceptions, but there is only 1 ultimate truth that we have an opinion about and perceive. I don't think truth is relative nor is truth dictated by humanity, I believe truth was set down by God. One reason I don't think truth is relative though is because there are some paradoxes to that statement. If truth is relative then all truths should be equal. If truth is based on what we believe it to be, then one person's truth is equal to another person's truth. They both base their truth on experience, perceptions, and things they already know and believe. If all truth is equal though, then what happens when one person's truth contradicts another? What if someone believes when we die we are re-incarnated while another believes in a personal afterlife? Who is right? They can't both be right, because for one person to be right the other must be wrong. Reality doesn't operate based on how we want it to, reality is unchanging regardless of what our opinions of truth are. One can believe that the sky is green, and it may be his truth, but reality will always remain absolute regardless of what this person believes. We can hold an opinion about something, but our opinion doesn't alter or shape what reality and truth really are. In essence, they are absolutes independent of our opinions or beliefs.

Concerning God, your logic contains at least one non sequitur. Specifically, one cannot conclude we were created by the state the universe is in. You call the universe orderly, but compared to what other universe? It's a comparative term.

About knowledge. your logic is fairly worded, but makes some assumptions. For example, "They can't both be right". How do we know things cannot both be true and not true at the same time, logically.

And be careful: science doesn't prove anything, nor has archeology proved the Bible. I wouldn't mind you expanding on that.

 

[DarkWizard12]

YouTube- 2.6 Deconversion: The End

How it happens...

sweet, is there any point you are trying to make with this? I do not follow christianity for the same reason the person in the video does, so I do not know how this applies to me or any other convert or non-convert, or even that this is "how it happens". The man made his own choice, no one told him otherwise.

Conversions and deconversions happen all the time. Both for stupid reasons, both for good reasons, in my opinion. It "happened" this way for him, and I've seen it happen under completely different circumstances.

Other than that, I do not see any reasoning here...perhaps if you put in more personal input into your OP...

 

[DarkWizard12]

sweet, is there any point you are trying to make with this? I do not follow christianity for the same reason the person in the video does, so I do not know how this applies to me or any other convert or non-convert, or even that this is "how it happens". The man made his own choice, no one told him otherwise.

Conversions and deconversions happen all the time. Both for stupid reasons, both for good reasons, in my opinion. It "happened" this way for him, and I've seen it happen under completely different circumstances.

Other than that, I do not see any reasoning here...perhaps if you put in more personal input into your OP...

Hello?

(10 char)

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Other than that, I do not see any reasoning here...perhaps if you put in more personal input into your OP...

I thought it provided a good perspective on why people leave that resonated with me.

 

[DarkWizard12]

I thought it provided a good perspective on why people leave that resonated with me.

now we're onto something.

why does this specifically resonate with you?

 

[CriticalThought]

I guess these videos are proof that you can reason yourself out of something that you never reasoned yourself into in the first place.

 

[John Doe]

now we're onto something.

why does this specifically resonate with you?

It does with me too. Different circumstances than in the video, but I pretty much understood personally all the things he said about losing prayer, other people, etc.

 

[FreshlyMinted]

Excellent, excellent video. I have been through very similar circumstances, myself.

The three things I disagree with though are

1- He took the "right" horn of the Euthyphro dilemma by saying that morality is independent from God, whereas I believe that morality is dependent on God's arbitrarily defined choice of what is to be moral. However, the world and universe are constructed in such a way that those actions are promoted. If rape were considered morally good then the universe and universal laws would be constructed in such a way that it "would" be good

2- As I have argued before, it is necessary to either have a first causeless cause (this could be the universe itself) or infinite regress of causes. Using Occam's razor, a causeless cause is more simple than assuming infinite entities causing one another (especially since we know that time is not infinite and that cause and effect take on new meaning when without time). This implies that cause and effect do not necessarily happen all of the time since they haven't happened 100% of the time given any one event/effect. *This does not necessitate that the first causeless cause be intelligent, immortal, or benevolent*

3- The natural world does have evidence for spirituality and a universal morality as seen in the multitude of spiritual experiences had by those even of atheistic nature. While I understand that those are *merely* chemicals in the brain producing a subjective experience- so are every other subjective experience including sight, touch, smell, and hearing. All senses have a cause and mere evolution does not account for spirituality.