Debunking MMT

[JohnfrmClevelan]

so govt prints money to pay for deficit of $1 trillion and creates $1 trillion in new demand rather than $1 trillion in inflation with no new demand? How is that possible?

The government creates dollars without taxation. Those dollars enter the economy when either the government spends directly on goods and services, or when they give money to people who then spend on goods and services. Production grows to meet the new demand. Viola!

 

[Mach]

You are correct, the idea of deficit spending is to make up for lost demand, or to simply increase aggregate demand, if that is what is called for.
Most MMTers tend to lean to the left because once you understand that it doesn't cost anything for the government to spend, the obvious policy prescription is to spend for the benefit of the economy (or the people, depending on your outlook). Most on the right are still of the mind that debt and deficits are bad in and of themselves.

Yeah, our two party winner take all system makes this one big cluster**** doesn't it?
I want some deficit spending in a downturn, therefore I support teachers unions, taxing more, etc. Argh.

I don't think that corporations are demonized by MMTers, but we do lament the particular circumstances that reduce aggregate demand by reducing labor's income.

Many liberals do, and some MMTers on the board have ventured over there. But I hear ya.

Yes, I worked from poor to independent and financially secure by working hard and being smart with finances and being a good boss. Then I'm lambasted by the left for being a greedy capitalist that hires slave labor and hurts the economy. The reasons offered of course bearing no resemblance to the reality I experienced. It's hard to lean left for me. I dislike a lot of both parties, disenfranchised by the lack of competitive options in the political marketplace...and since they control the market, that seems unlikely to change.

 

[Moderate Right]

ever see a conservative or libertarian have to run from a debate??
What does that teach us?

It teaches us that you are right oh mighty one. Sorry, but I have devoted my life to debunking MMT, which is, admittedly, pretty easy since only a hand full of left wing wackos believe in it as an excuse to spend, spend, spend without having to worry about any consequences. But, if you want to live in your delusional world that the rich aren't getting richer and the poor aren't getting poorer then feel free. I'm not going to stand in your way. Carry on.

 

[Moderate Right]

Have you ever heard of the middle ground fallacy ?

Yes. The far right and the far left tell me about it all the time. I guess it must be true then. If the middle ground is fallacy then what do you call the right and what do they call you?

 

[Moderate Right]

What do think "deficit" means? It means that the government spends more than they take in in taxes. People never pay for it. Governments have that power, you know.

Could have sworn that part of the budget (and therefore the deficit) includes making interest payments on the national debt, therefore it IS real debt. If I remember economics 101, the 20 trillions dollars we owe is principal but how can there be both principal and interest we pay on that principal, if there is no debt and why do we even say that we have a 20 trillion dollar national debt if the debt is not real and we are making interest payments on it? It's stupid to make interest payments on 20 trillion dollars if it isn't real debt. Time to start printing more money I guess.

 

[Moderate Right]

Most on the right are still of the mind that debt and deficits are bad in and of themselves.

I don't think that is an accurate representation. Most on the right realize that there are times when debt and deficits are needed, just not as a regular ongoing policy.

 

[Critter7r]

It teaches us that you are right oh mighty one. Sorry, but I have devoted my life to debunking MMT, which is, admittedly, pretty easy since only a hand full of left wing wackos believe in it as an excuse to spend, spend, spend without having to worry about any consequences. But, if you want to live in your delusional world that the rich aren't getting richer and the poor aren't getting poorer then feel free. I'm not going to stand in your way. Carry on.

Devoted your life??? Puh-leeeze. You can't even explain it. How can you disprove something of which you cannot explain the workings??

You haven't offered up a single post that would point even in the direction of "devotion".

 

[Absentglare]

Yes. The far right and the far left tell me about it all the time. I guess it must be true then. If the middle ground is fallacy then what do you call the right and what do they call you?

The existence of the political gradient doesn't disprove the reality of the middle ground fallacy being a fallacy.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I don't think that is an accurate representation. Most on the right realize that there are times when debt and deficits are needed, just not as a regular ongoing policy.

Really!

So here we have been in a period of negative REAL interest rates, with millions of folks out of work....and what was the mantra from the House GOP since 2008? DEBTDEBTDEBT...AUSTERITYAUSTERITYAUSTERITY.

 

[Moderate Right]

Devoted your life??? Puh-leeeze. You can't even explain it. How can you disprove something of which you cannot explain the workings??

You haven't offered up a single post that would point even in the direction of "devotion".

I offered up several links, including an MMT expert who wrote a 74 page paper explaining in articulate detail how MMT was flawed. Why should a novice here on DP try convincing other novices here on DP that something is flawed when many sources with much more knowledge than I have already clearly and convincingly debunked MMT? Only one reason, those die hard MMT believers would rather debate a novice like me to try proving their point than accept the true hard reality presented by the experts. Those novices here put up post after post after post of graphs, stats, figures, charts, etc. to try backing up their beliefs about MMT but refuse to accept the links I provide, from experts in the field, nonetheless, one an ex-MMT that eventually saw the light.

 

[Moderate Right]

The existence of the political gradient doesn't disprove the reality of the middle ground fallacy being a fallacy.

Doesn't prove it either.

 

[Critter7r]

I offered up several links ....

I stopped reading

 

[Moderate Right]

I stopped reading

Of course you stopped reading. You guys want everyone to look at MMT with open minds while at the very same time your minds are closed.

 

[Critter7r]

Doesn't prove it either.

Right, because there are things like definitions of fallacies to prove that the middle ground fallacy is a fallacy. So your "come-back" makes no sense.

You're becoming more troll-like the more you post. You oppose stuff just to oppose something.

 

[Critter7r]

Of course you stopped reading. You guys want everyone to look at MMT with open minds while at the very same time your minds are closed.

I've opened my mind to your points as much as you've opened yours to mine.

 

[Moderate Right]

Right, because there are things like definitions of fallacies to prove that the middle ground fallacy is a fallacy. So your "come-back" makes no sense.

You're becoming more troll-like the more you post. You oppose stuff just to oppose something.

Just like you and the others oppose people who do not believe in the MMT bunk. Like it or not, there is the left, there is the right, and there is the middle. Which ones are fallacy may never be known. For all we know we are all computer programs living out our "lives" on a holodeck, which actually is a real theory by the way.

 

[Moderate Right]

I've opened my mind to your points as much as you've opened yours to mine.

Oh wow. Now you are admitting that I actually had points.

 

[Critter7r]

Oh wow. Now you are admitting that I actually had points.

Meh ... you're right, I should've used the word "posts".

 

[Moderate Right]

Really!

So here we have been in a period of negative REAL interest rates, with millions of folks out of work....and what was the mantra from the House GOP since 2008? DEBTDEBTDEBT...AUSTERITYAUSTERITYAUSTERITY.

Most experts would say that we are close to "full employment". There will always be millions of people out of work. Always. Is this the excuse for ALWAYS running deficits?

 

[Critter7r]

Just like you and the others oppose people who do not believe in the MMT bunk. Like it or not, there is the left, there is the right, and there is the middle. Which ones are fallacy may never be known.

Except when I oppose someone's viewpoint, I offer up an explanation as to why I oppose it, instead of going off on some Matrix tangent to avoid explaining anything.

For all we know we are all computer programs living out our "lives" on a holodeck, which actually is a real theory by the way.

And no, it's not a theory, it's pure conjecture.

 

[Moderate Right]

Except when I oppose someone's viewpoint, I offer up an explanation as to why I oppose it, instead of going off on some Matrix tangent to avoid explaining anything.

And no, it's not a theory, it's pure conjecture.

Well, we finally agree that MMT is pure conjecture.

 

[Critter7r]

Well, we finally agree that MMT is pure conjecture.

you're really going to make me go edit that post? #smfh

 

[Moderate Right]

you're really going to make me go edit that post? #smfh

You can edit whatever you like but I do want to thank you for giving me a new talking point. See, my mind is open to your suggestions after all.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Most experts would say that we are close to "full employment". There will always be millions of people out of work. Always. Is this the excuse for ALWAYS running deficits?

Oh...I understand, those on the right get to have amnesia on the huge levels of UE 2008-2015, get to ignore that output is way below historical levels (because of depressed demand), that much of the new employment is part-time.....while they get to say that they can see the need for deficit spending...just not during the the worst recession since 29....oh and now look!...UE is at 5%, we don't need stimulation now!....but Obummer was turrible....he caused us to have such a long recession!.......hurr durr.

 

[Moderate Right]

Oh...I understand, those on the right get to have amnesia on the huge levels of UE 2008-2015, get to ignore that output is way below historical levels (because of depressed demand), that much of the new employment is part-time.....while they get to say that they can see the need for deficit spending...just not during the the worst recession since 29....oh and now look!...UE is at 5%, we don't need stimulation now!....but Obummer was turrible....he caused us to have such a long recession!.......hurr durr.

Some of the troubles with a forum such as this is one side tends to be accused by the other of rubber stamping their particular side's policies all the way down the line. I actually agree with much of what you wrote, this time.