• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
70,355
Reaction score
70,749
Location
USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
This is a claim typically put forth by gun rights supporters in favor of looser gun restrictions. Essentially, the argument goes like this: Law-abiding citizens will, by definition, respect the law, so if some or all guns are illegal, they will not purchase them. By contrast, many criminals will, by definition, ignore gun laws, acquiring guns illegally. This would shift the balance of power in favor of criminals. So to level the playing field, there should be fewer restrictions on firearms.

If this statement is mostly false, then many gun rights supporters have a lot of explaining to do. It would mean that the claim is, for all intents and purposes, a lie and an instance of fear-mongering. And it would need to stop right away. Because suddenly, gun control supporters would have a much stronger case for restricting who can buy firearms and what kind of firearms can be purchased.

However, if this statement is mostly true, then that can mean only one thing: There is a large underground market for guns in the US, possibly on the same scale as the drug market. If so, I ask the question: What does it look like? How are all these guns getting onto the black market? Are they smuggled from abroad, are they made right here in the US--legally or illegally--or is it a little bit of both? All of these questions would have to be thoroughly answered before we can discuss remedies.

What do you think about this, and what is the evidence for your claim?
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

This is a claim typically put forth by gun rights supporters in favor of looser gun restrictions. Essentially, the argument goes like this: Law-abiding citizens will, by definition, respect the law, so if some or all guns are illegal, they will not purchase them. By contrast, many criminals will, by definition, ignore gun laws, acquiring guns illegally. This would shift the balance of power in favor of criminals. So to level the playing field, there should be fewer restrictions on firearms.

If this statement is mostly false, then many gun rights supporters have a lot of explaining to do. It would mean that the claim is, for all intents and purposes, a lie and an instance of fear-mongering. And it would need to stop right away. Because suddenly, gun control supporters would have a much stronger case for restricting who can buy firearms and what kind of firearms can be purchased.

However, if this statement is mostly true, then that can mean only one thing: There is a large underground market for guns in the US, possibly on the same scale as the drug market. If so, I ask the question: What does it look like? How are all these guns getting onto the black market? Are they smuggled from abroad, are they made right here in the US--legally or illegally--or is it a little bit of both? All of these questions would have to be thoroughly answered before we can discuss remedies.

What do you think about this, and what is the evidence for your claim?

Of course, the first paragraph is true. Criminals can get their hands on guns in MANY different ways, ranging from buying them illegally off the internet to stealing them. Restrictions on second amendment rights would put citizens at the mercy of criminals who will ALWAYS be able to get guns.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

This is a claim typically put forth by gun rights supporters in favor of looser gun restrictions. Essentially, the argument goes like this: Law-abiding citizens will, by definition, respect the law, so if some or all guns are illegal, they will not purchase them. By contrast, many criminals will, by definition, ignore gun laws, acquiring guns illegally. This would shift the balance of power in favor of criminals. So to level the playing field, there should be fewer restrictions on firearms.

If this statement is mostly false, then many gun rights supporters have a lot of explaining to do. It would mean that the claim is, for all intents and purposes, a lie and an instance of fear-mongering. And it would need to stop right away. Because suddenly, gun control supporters would have a much stronger case for restricting who can buy firearms and what kind of firearms can be purchased.

However, if this statement is mostly true, then that can mean only one thing: There is a large underground market for guns in the US, possibly on the same scale as the drug market. If so, I ask the question: What does it look like? How are all these guns getting onto the black market? Are they smuggled from abroad, are they made right here in the US--legally or illegally--or is it a little bit of both? All of these questions would have to be thoroughly answered before we can discuss remedies.

What do you think about this, and what is the evidence for your claim?


Yes, there's a huge black market in guns. Many are stolen, some are bought using straw purchases. Illegally acquired guns may change hands many times and be used in multiple crimes over the course of decades in some cases.

I'm an ex-cop. I've known lots of criminals. On top of that, when I was young I ran with a rough crowd, what some call the "Fringe" crowd (as in on the fringe of outlaw and associate with outlaws). I have never known criminals to have any serious problem acquiring guns. I know of a felon who, upon being released from prison, re-armed himself within 24 hours with a pistol and a sawn-off shotgun. He wasn't even a big time criminal, just a petty thief and druggie.

Places like DC and Chicago that have draconian gun control still have high rates of gun crime. Some say this is because high-level gun control is not universal in all states... well buddy, there's something like 270 million guns in circulation in America already, most of which are not "registered" to start with, so unless you've got a magic wand they are not going to disappear anytime soon.

Gun control in America has never shown any success at disarming criminals in any area.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

This is a claim typically put forth by gun rights supporters in favor of looser gun restrictions. Essentially, the argument goes like this: Law-abiding citizens will, by definition, respect the law, so if some or all guns are illegal, they will not purchase them. By contrast, many criminals will, by definition, ignore gun laws, acquiring guns illegally. This would shift the balance of power in favor of criminals. So to level the playing field, there should be fewer restrictions on firearms.

The argument isn't because it puts the "balance" in favor of criminals.

The argument is because the ONLY -- that is, ONLY -- justification for restricting gun ownership is to keep them out of criminal hands.

If a law can't do that, then the law is not justified.

It's a fundamental right.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

This is a claim typically put forth by gun rights supporters in favor of looser gun restrictions. Essentially, the argument goes like this: Law-abiding citizens will, by definition, respect the law, so if some or all guns are illegal, they will not purchase them. By contrast, many criminals will, by definition, ignore gun laws, acquiring guns illegally. This would shift the balance of power in favor of criminals. So to level the playing field, there should be fewer restrictions on firearms.

If this statement is mostly false, then many gun rights supporters have a lot of explaining to do. It would mean that the claim is, for all intents and purposes, a lie and an instance of fear-mongering. And it would need to stop right away. Because suddenly, gun control supporters would have a much stronger case for restricting who can buy firearms and what kind of firearms can be purchased.

However, if this statement is mostly true, then that can mean only one thing: There is a large underground market for guns in the US, possibly on the same scale as the drug market. If so, I ask the question: What does it look like? How are all these guns getting onto the black market? Are they smuggled from abroad, are they made right here in the US--legally or illegally--or is it a little bit of both? All of these questions would have to be thoroughly answered before we can discuss remedies.

What do you think about this, and what is the evidence for your claim?

we have nothing to explain. YOur only valid argument for the idiotic gun laws liberals often propose is PROVING THAT SUCH laws make society much safer and so far the evidence for that is zero to none.

we have no duty to prove why freedom is good.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Of course, the first paragraph is true. Criminals can get their hands on guns in MANY different ways, ranging from buying them illegally off the internet to stealing them. Restrictions on second amendment rights would put citizens at the mercy of criminals who will ALWAYS be able to get guns.

Explain how criminals don't get guns, as often as they do in the United States, in other countries with extremely strict gun laws.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Explain how criminals don't get guns, as often as they do in the United States, in other countries with extremely strict gun laws.

What do you mean "how they don't get guns"? They do.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

What do you mean "how they don't get guns"? They do.

Do they? In other countries with much stricter gun laws the amount of gun crime is also drastically smaller as well. Look at every single European country if you need an example. The issue isn't that simple, hell its not even as simple as I'm making it, but I only need that simple fact to debunk the common belief that the looser the gun laws the less gun crime there will be.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Yes, there's a huge black market in guns. Many are stolen, some are bought using straw purchases. Illegally acquired guns may change hands many times and be used in multiple crimes over the course of decades in some cases.

I'm an ex-cop. I've known lots of criminals. On top of that, when I was young I ran with a rough crowd, what some call the "Fringe" crowd (as in on the fringe of outlaw and associate with outlaws). I have never known criminals to have any serious problem acquiring guns. I know of a felon who, upon being released from prison, re-armed himself within 24 hours with a pistol and a sawn-off shotgun. He wasn't even a big time criminal, just a petty thief and druggie.

Places like DC and Chicago that have draconian gun control still have high rates of gun crime. Some say this is because high-level gun control is not universal in all states... well buddy, there's something like 270 million guns in circulation in America already, most of which are not "registered" to start with, so unless you've got a magic wand they are not going to disappear anytime soon.

Gun control in America has never shown any success at disarming criminals in any area.

Wow. That's just scary. Are illegally-purchased guns typically used, or are some new?
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Do they? In other countries with much stricter gun laws the amount of gun crime is also drastically smaller as well. Look at every single European country if you need an example. The issue isn't that simple, hell its not even as simple as I'm making it, but I only need that simple fact to debunk the common belief that the looser the gun laws the less gun crime there will be.


Mexico has draconian gun laws, South africa has extremely strict gun laws, and Columbia does too. I know, as a world class shooter and a world traveled hunter I have been to numerous countries where we had to get permission months in advance to take 6000 dollar Perazzi Mirage or Krieghoff K-80 target guns (Zero criminal use history) with TEAM USA and olympic rings on them into those nations. Gun crime in those three nations is far far higher than the USA
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Yes, there's a huge black market in guns. Many are stolen, some are bought using straw purchases. Illegally acquired guns may change hands many times and be used in multiple crimes over the course of decades in some cases.

I'm an ex-cop. I've known lots of criminals. On top of that, when I was young I ran with a rough crowd, what some call the "Fringe" crowd (as in on the fringe of outlaw and associate with outlaws). I have never known criminals to have any serious problem acquiring guns. I know of a felon who, upon being released from prison, re-armed himself within 24 hours with a pistol and a sawn-off shotgun. He wasn't even a big time criminal, just a petty thief and druggie.

Places like DC and Chicago that have draconian gun control still have high rates of gun crime. Some say this is because high-level gun control is not universal in all states... well buddy, there's something like 270 million guns in circulation in America already, most of which are not "registered" to start with, so unless you've got a magic wand they are not going to disappear anytime soon.

Gun control in America has never shown any success at disarming criminals in any area.

Never registered guns and guns that create no record bring a premium, such as firearms that are modern but too old to require background checks and recording the sale. A 38 special that is old enough to predate filing out the forms is worth 3 to 5 times more than the identical model made after the threshold.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Mexico has draconian gun laws, South africa has extremely strict gun laws, and Columbia does too. I know, as a world class shooter and a world traveled hunter I have been to numerous countries where we had to get permission months in advance to take 6000 dollar Perazzi Mirage or Krieghoff K-80 target guns (Zero criminal use history) with TEAM USA and olympic rings on them into those nations. Gun crime in those three nations is far far higher than the USA

So let me get this straight, you're a world class shooter and world traveled hunter who's traveled with Team USA to places that have never hosted an Olympics? I believe you made several other claims on these boards as to how exotic and exciting your life style is but somehow I don't believe any of them.

Anyway, of course the finest guns in sport shootings aren't used in gun crimes, I assume they are the finest because you wouldn't settle for less, and trying to apply the history of those types of guns to gun crime is ridiculous. They are two completely different things. Secondly, you and I both know that if a country cannot enforce its laws then of course they aren't going to be effective. Using Mexico, Columbia, or South Africa is completely off the mark, those nations have such poor governing ability due to numerous factors that laws don't carry the same meaning as they do in the United States. If you want to compare countries than look at countries that have a similar ability to enforce laws they make, laws are only as effective as the ability the state has to enforce them.

According to the ATF most pistols used in crimes in the United States come from licensed gun dealers, guns which are initially perfect legal are made illegal by the way some of these stores sell them to criminals or sell them in illegal ways. frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF.

The myth that criminals will always be able to buy guns illegally exists because people ignore the original source of the gun. A gun sold by a guy in a hoodie for cash in an alley is an illegal gun sale and if the buyer commits a gun crime people will say "See, he was able to get a gun away." But few people ask the question of where the guy in the hoodie got the gun to begin with, according to the ATF the majority of pistols sold in the United States illegally start off as perfectly legal weapons being bought by licensed firearms dealers, some of these licensed firearms dealers will then illegal sell their weapons where they make their way to the street. I'll say that again, the majority of guns used in crimes ultimately come from licensed firearms dealers, places you yourself can walk into and purchase a weapon perfectly legally, are also the bigger supplier of weapons to criminals.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Never registered guns and guns that create no record bring a premium, such as firearms that are modern but too old to require background checks and recording the sale. A 38 special that is old enough to predate filing out the forms is worth 3 to 5 times more than the identical model made after the threshold.

I have an old 22 that belonged to my wife's late grandfather that didn't even have a serial number
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Wow. That's just scary. Are illegally-purchased guns typically used, or are some new?



It's a mix.

Most career criminals have a long rap sheet by the time they get around to using a gun in crimes. If they are a former felon they can't buy legally, so a lot of them are stolen or black market guns, or else guns bought under false pretences.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Only people who have no clue about competitive shooters would think competitive shooters would only go to countries that hosted the olympics. Many of us who made the final USOT trials had the rings on our guns.

its like saying a tennis player probably didn't go to a country to play tennis that does not host a grand slam event
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

It's a mix.

Most career criminals have a long rap sheet by the time they get around to using a gun in crimes. If they are a former felon they can't buy legally, so a lot of them are stolen or black market guns, or else guns bought under false pretences.

In 1989 the US military "lost" over 15,000 M16 or M4 rifles

I remember talking to a Naval investigator (NCIS) who was investigating some M79 "Demilled" launchers a client of mine bought to fix up to sell for movie props (the investigation was over who sold these junked launchers)

he told me a common scam was for a supply sergeant to record a weapon as being lost in war games or destroyed in combat when it was not. The weapon no longer existed officially and could easily be stolen.

there was a big bust in one of the bases in Germany-the inspectors went in a week before the official inventory and they found dozens of machine guns and hundreds of rifles that had been listed as destroyed, lost or junked. that led to a major bust
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

In 1989 the US military "lost" over 15,000 M16 or M4 rifles

I remember talking to a Naval investigator (NCIS) who was investigating some M79 "Demilled" launchers a client of mine bought to fix up to sell for movie props (the investigation was over who sold these junked launchers)

he told me a common scam was for a supply sergeant to record a weapon as being lost in war games or destroyed in combat when it was not. The weapon no longer existed officially and could easily be stolen.

there was a big bust in one of the bases in Germany-the inspectors went in a week before the official inventory and they found dozens of machine guns and hundreds of rifles that had been listed as destroyed, lost or junked. that led to a major bust

So now you're not only a world class hunter/traveler who hangs out with the US shooting team at exotic locations all over the world, but you also we're involved in an investigation into the illegal sale of Vietnam era grenade launchers?

Also was the correction of the US Olympic team's venues the only response you had to my post?
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

It's a mix.

Most career criminals have a long rap sheet by the time they get around to using a gun in crimes. If they are a former felon they can't buy legally, so a lot of them are stolen or black market guns, or else guns bought under false pretences.

Wow. I'd like to read up on this. Any good sources you can recommend (that aren't some kind of conspiracy-theory crap)?
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

The myth that criminals will always be able to buy guns illegally exists because people ignore the original source of the gun. A gun sold by a guy in a hoodie for cash in an alley is an illegal gun sale and if the buyer commits a gun crime people will say "See, he was able to get a gun away." But few people ask the question of where the guy in the hoodie got the gun to begin with, according to the ATF the majority of pistols sold in the United States illegally start off as perfectly legal weapons being bought by licensed firearms dealers, some of these licensed firearms dealers will then illegal sell their weapons where they make their way to the street. I'll say that again, the majority of guns used in crimes ultimately come from licensed firearms dealers, places you yourself can walk into and purchase a weapon perfectly legally, are also the bigger supplier of weapons to criminals.

And see, if that turns out to be true, then that would score a point in favor of gun control. *shrug*

I've always wondered whether gun restrictions should be made more at the point of manufacture and less at the point of sale. After all, it's hard to smuggle a sub-machine gun that doesn't yet exist.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

It's funny that folks think there is an argument here.

Making drugs illegal and spending billions on that has sure worked out well for us. Thank God our government is so efficient and capable.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

So now you're not only a world class hunter/traveler who hangs out with the US shooting team at exotic locations all over the world, but you also we're involved in an investigation into the illegal sale of Vietnam era grenade launchers?

Also was the correction of the US Olympic team's venues the only response you had to my post?

You seem obsessed with me-I am a trial attorney who was called and retained by a TITLE II Manufacturer when a Naval investigator showed up at his door in the Western Hills neighborhood of Cincinnati over 20 years ago after he had bought 6 Scrapped M 79 grenade launchers.

Your posts seem to suggest that you being a left winger you don't like my arguments and you think the way to undermine arguments you don't have the learning or information to dispute is to pretend to quibble with my qualifications which you cannot possibly do

in the 79-80 year I was one of the top college age ISU shooters in the country. I was selected to train at the USOTC to train for the 1980 games which were cancelled before the team could be assembled. The year of an Olympic games, the NRA US national championship was the trials for the team (that was true through 1988-then it became a multi venue series of selection shoots rather than a 400 target single venue event) I did not place high enough that year to have gone if the team had gone to Moscow but I finished rather well. Same was true in 1988 but that year you had to have a Minimum Qualifying Score (188/200) shot the prior year in a sanctioned event with at least 5 countries participating and I did not so I couldn't have made the team even if I had finished higher than my approximate 10th place or so.

those of us at the USOTC had USA shooting team or olympic rings on our Perazzis or other similar shotguns or Anschutz rifles

I hunted in Boliva, Columbia, Kenya, the UK among other places.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Fair enough, you got me, I can't prove any of it is made up and you can't prove it isn't so lets move on. Do you have a response to my post, the part actually about guns
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

Fair enough, you got me, I can't prove any of it is made up and you can't prove it isn't so lets move on. Do you have a response to my post, the part actually about guns

there is no argument in favor of gun control that has merit because the only argument that has merit is that gun control makes society safer and that is unproven

there are no other legitimate arguments for gun control

there are many arguments against gun control that are NOT DEFEATED even if the gun controllers can prove their desired laws increase safety
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

there is no argument in favor of gun control that has merit because the only argument that has merit is that gun control makes society safer and that is unproven

there are no other legitimate arguments for gun control

there are many arguments against gun control that are NOT DEFEATED even if the gun controllers can prove their desired laws increase safety

I'm not arguing gun control, Im just stating facts.

You still haven't addressed my post.
 
re: "Criminals can get guns regardless of the law"[W:684]

I'm not arguing gun control, Im just stating facts.

You still haven't addressed my post.

remind me why I ought to after your comments that had no basis in fact directed to me
 
Back
Top Bottom