Creating Terrorists, Why do we continue to do it?

[ScummyD]

A lot of the things you all are citing as reasons people become terrorists or insurgents are things that have existed for much longer than the current problems we face in the Middle East. Democracy for example has existed much longer than these problems.

That is because democracy has existed much longer than the religion of Islam.

 

[justabubba]

That is because democracy has existed much longer than the religion of Islam.

i am confident you intended to make a point there
but it escaped me
please hone your point so that i might be able to understand it

 

[ScummyD]

i am confident you intended to make a point there
but it escaped me
please hone your point so that i might be able to understand it

Uh, Wiseone said: "A lot of the things you all are citing as reasons people become terrorists or insurgents are things that have existed for much longer than the current problems we face in the Middle East. Democracy for example has existed much longer than these problems."

Well, democracy has existed longer than the religion of Islam. Therefore, it should be readily apparent that just because consensual governance has existed longer than Islam doesn't mean that today democracy isn't a motivating factor driving the violence and destruction perpetrated by radical Islamists. Naturally Islamists weren't pissed at democracy during the times when democracy existed but Islam didn't.

 

[GI Joe]

Through our invasion and occupation we now have contracts for one of the largest reserves of oil left on the planet for the first time since Saddam kicked us out 35 years ago.

And our Middle East military occupation ensures that no one can cut off our Middle East oil in the future.

Most of our oil comes from Canada, Mexico and Venezuala and not from the ME, either then or now.



btw what happened to all those oil pipelines that were also given as the so called "real reasons" for the invasions. I think there was an afganistan one, an Iraq one and one that was to go from one of those places to Israel.

 

[Wiseone]

Uh, Wiseone said: "A lot of the things you all are citing as reasons people become terrorists or insurgents are things that have existed for much longer than the current problems we face in the Middle East. Democracy for example has existed much longer than these problems."

Well, democracy has existed longer than the religion of Islam. Therefore, it should be readily apparent that just because consensual governance has existed longer than Islam doesn't mean that today democracy isn't a motivating factor driving the violence and destruction perpetrated by radical Islamists. Naturally Islamists weren't pissed at democracy during the times when democracy existed but Islam didn't.

What I meant was that democracy and Islam have both existed for a long time in the world without fringe Muslims believing it was their mission to destroy democracy. So while it may be a factor today for some of these individuals, it obviously isn't the only factor needed to be present to create these current conditions.

 

[Z3n]

What I meant was that democracy and Islam have both existed for a long time in the world without fringe Muslims believing it was their mission to destroy democracy. So while it may be a factor today for some of these individuals, it obviously isn't the only factor needed to be present to create these current conditions.

Muslim fundamentalists don't want to destroy democracy. They want democracy to leave them the hell alone in their promoting of Islamicization of state.

 

[ScummyD]

Muslim fundamentalists don't want to destroy democracy. They want democracy to leave them the hell alone in their promoting of Islamicization of state.

There is no difference. And, their own words prove you wrong. Funny you step into this thread on the 51st page and make this unsubstantiated claim while ignoring the long list of evidence posted throughout.

 

[ScummyD]

What I meant was that democracy and Islam have both existed for a long time in the world without fringe Muslims believing it was their mission to destroy democracy. So while it may be a factor today for some of these individuals, it obviously isn't the only factor needed to be present to create these current conditions.

Certainly no one factor explains "these current conditions," but just as assuredly democracy is the antithesis of Islam.

 

[GI Joe]

Yes I am aware of that, and I am also aware that the Zionist movement located the Jews in Arab holy lands, displacing local natives, and expanding their occupation further and into Arab land.

"A part of the religious Zionist movement grafted itself on to the temporary realities created after the 6 day war, and evolved a radical messianic ideology. They insisted that they, and only they, represent the "real" Zionism. A quiet coup had transformed Zionism. Unfortunately, a considerable part of the world took them at their word. The image of Zionism in the world was transformed from that of a progressive movement of liberation to a movement of fanatics who wanted to create a religious state and disenfranchise a native population. "
Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

How does this link prove your point? Did you actually read it? It actually says the opposite of your claim if you read the rest of its context. It even says this "was never the ideology of mainstream Zionism ".


All your claims are false


I suggest you read this

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/63558-palestinians-cheer-carnage-18.html#post1058475211

and
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...-illegal-even-occupied-28.html#post1058369438

 

[GI Joe]

And no doubt he was one the whiners screaming about a supposed loss of civil rights when Bush did improve national security.

"Had Mr. Atta and his fellow killers been arrested on probable cause, their Islamic haunts raided, and assorted charities and fundraisers shut down on September 10, 2001 — cries of racism, profiling, and McCarthyism would have drowned out the purportedly farfetched excuses that such preemptory FBI raids had in fact saved thousands in Manhattan." -- Victor Davis Hanson

 

[GI Joe]

Wrong, they did not possess the will to depose him.



An election during a foreign military occupation is not what I call legitimate.
And apparently, neither do the Iraqis, as we still have 100,000 troops there to protect the government we helped set up from its own people.




Go back and check the link I provided previously in this thread to document this.

Are you saying you are against helping people who are being brutaly oppressed gain freedom?


Elections and implementing democracy worked in Germany, Japan, Italy, Panama and various other occupied countries in the past. Are you saying Arabs/Muslims dont have the ability to maintain a democratic society like others do?

 

[Z3n]

Are you saying you are against helping people who are being brutaly oppressed gain freedom?


Elections and implementing democracy worked in Germany, Japan, Italy, Panama and various other occupied countries in the past. Are you saying Arabs/Muslims dont have the ability to maintain a democratic society like others do?

That's correct! Western nation building doesn't work in Sharia states or other Islamic states like most of the middle east!

Who gives the conservative war hawks the right to juxtapose a western style of government on failed states, prebendal regions, and non-"liberal" governments in general? U.S. intervention causes nothing but trouble

 

[Tom Jones]

Muslim fundamentalists don't want to destroy democracy. They want democracy to leave them the hell alone in their promoting of Islamicization of state.

LOL - you must be on drugs - nobody ever says anything about Muslim fundamentalists - the only concern is with Islamic extremists who are hell bent on a whole lot of retardedness - maybe you drink from the same water hole.

 

[Z3n]

LOL - you must be on drugs - nobody ever says anything about Muslim fundamentalists - the only concern is with Islamic extremists who are hell bent on a whole lot of retardedness - maybe you drink from the same water hole.

Muslim fundamentalists/ Islamic extremists, more or less the same thing. Nice ad hominem though, really shows the quality in argument.

 

[Tom Jones]

That's correct! Western nation building doesn't work in Sharia states or other Islamic states like most of the middle east!

Who gives the conservative war hawks the right to juxtapose a western style of government on failed states, prebendal regions, and non-"liberal" governments in general? U.S. intervention causes nothing but trouble

Nobody is "Western nation building" - smart folks are trying to make a better place for everyone to live in - we are tired of the retardedness - something has to be done, and we are doing it - too bad if it bothers you - it will be done regardless.

 

[Tom Jones]

Muslim fundamentalists/ Islamic extremists, more or less the same thing. Nice ad hominem though, really shows the quality in argument.

Wrong - and quit insulting good Muslims.

 

[Z3n]

Wrong - and quit insulting good Muslims.

Nope, not wrong. I'm not insulting muslims at all. Get your head in a textbook and out of your cousins pants you redneck

 

[Z3n]

Nobody is "Western nation building" - smart folks are trying to make a better place for everyone to live in - we are tired of the retardedness - something has to be done, and we are doing it - too bad if it bothers you - it will be done regardless.

WRONG. I will be active against this sophomoric attempt to be imperialists.

 

[Tom Jones]

Nope, not wrong. I'm not insulting muslims at all. Get your head in a textbook and out of your cousins pants you redneck

I'm a Black person, and I have White friends - I resent your racists remark.

 

[Z3n]

I'm a Black person, and I have White friends - I resent your racists remark.

Ugh, I dont care. Wise up or ship out. I dont want to here your rehashed chauvanism

 

[ScummyD]

From:

Nice ad hominem though, really shows the quality in argument.

To:

Get your head in a textbook and out of your cousins pants you redneck

And all in only four minutes.

 

[Z3n]

Aww mom! he started it!

 

[Tom Jones]

Ugh, I dont care. Wise up or ship out. I dont want to here your rehashed chauvanism

Too bad, you racist, uncivilized....................

LOL - no wonder you have it all wrong - bad upbringing.

 

[GI Joe]

Since the AF knew the effect that it would have on the civilian population, logically speaking, that would be intentional.

They knowingly made the choice that the ends justified the means. No different than the terrorists.

It also means since we all know civillians will die in any war then anyone in a war is no different than a terrorist

That is such twisted morally skewed crap it leaves me speachless. So I will post some Victor Davis Hanson quotes that deals with the views of you and others like you.


"Hitler, like bin Laden and his epigones, was the problem, not us. The only difference is that our grandparents knew that and we don't."



"Finally, on this Thanksgiving let us remember that, for all their snarls and snipes, the now-freed peoples of France, Germany, Japan, Eastern Europe, Korea, the Balkans, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq owe a great deal to thousands of dead Americans, too often forgotten, who in awful places like the Hürtgen Forest, Tarawa, Monte Casino, Chosun, Hue, Panama City, Mazar-e-Sharif — and Fallujah — battled and defeated Nazis, militarists, Fascists, Communists, and Dark-Age Islamists so that millions of others might have the freedom that the rest of us lesser folk too often take for granted as our birthright."

"Appeasement of (Islamic) fundamentalists is not appreciated as magnanimity, but ridiculed as weakness — and, in fact, encourages further killing."

"At its richest, most populous stage in its history, the United States, after reeling from a devastating blow to its financial and military nerve centers, in less than three years toppled the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, implemented elections in Afghanistan and scheduled them in Iraq, prevented another 9/11-like attack — and so far has tragically lost about 1,100 in combat in a war against a virulent fascism that is antithetical to every aspect of Western liberty. Our grandfathers would have considered all this a miraculous military achievement. We call it a quagmire, deride our leaders as liars and traitors, and often doubted that our Marines — the greatest street-fighting besiegers in the history of warfare, who stormed Manila, Seoul, Hue, and Panama City — could take Fallujah last April."

"Our parents were terrified that, should America resort to military force abroad, they would be nuked; we are even more scared that our lethality will earn us the parlor disdain of the French and Germans. The terrorists are assured that the Western press is obsessed with Abu Ghraib, but not at all with Saddam's necropolis or their own slaughter of innocents. They suspect that those who endured Omaha and Utah or scaled Suribachi are long sleeping in their graves, and that a few thousand creeps in Fallujah scare us more than a quarter million in the Bulge did our parents."

"...There is no secret way to pacify Iraq other than to kill the killers, humiliate their cause through defeat, and give the credit of the victory, along with material aid and the promise of autonomous freedom, to moderate Iraqis. Victory on the battlefield — not the mysterious diplomacy of "wise men," or German and French sanction, or Arab League support — alone will allow Iraq an opportunity for humane government."

"We can no more reason with the Islamic fascists than we could sympathize with the Nazis' demands over supposedly exploited Germans in Czechoslovakia or the problem of Tojo's Japan's not getting its timely scrap-metal shipments from Roosevelt's America. Their pouts and gripes are not intended to be adjudicated as much as to weaken the resolve of many in the United States who find the entire "war against terror" too big, or the wrong kind, of a nuisance."

"There is no legitimate complaint of the Arab world against the United States — any more than Hitler had a right to Czechoslovakia or the Japanese to Manchuria. Just because the Japanese whined that the cutting-off of U.S. petroleum forced them to bomb Pearl Harbor didn't make it true."


"Western societies from ancient Athens to imperial Rome to the French republic rarely collapsed because of a shortage of resources or because foreign enemies proved too numerous or formidable in arms — even when those enemies were grim Macedonians or Germans. Rather, in times of peace and prosperity there arose an unreal view of the world beyond their borders, one that was the product of insularity brought about by success, and an intellectual arrogance that for some can be the unfortunate byproduct of an enlightened society." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"This bloody past suggests to us that enemies cease hostilities only when they are battered enough to acknowledge that there is no hope in victory — and thus that further resistance means only useless sacrifice." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"(I)t is necessary in a free society to audit and question the government. But such self-critique does not mean that we must apply an unreal standard of judgment against the United States that is as one-sided as it is unfair. Let us retain our sense of balance and history. We must be vigilant about our civil liberties, but it is only because we have acted both lawfully and promptly to detain terrorist killers on our shores that so far we have avoided a repeat of September 11. That we have saved American lives and preserved our constitutional freedoms is the real story of our domestic-security efforts. We must worry about collateral damage in war and will always strive to prevent civilian deaths, but should keep in mind that the United States seeks to protect the innocent, while al Qaeda, the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein murder thousands of civilians indiscriminately. Indeed, they seek to kill from the sanctuaries of hospitals, mosques, and schools precisely because they know — sometimes more so that our own critics — that we will not strike the homes of their own innocents, however cynically they are used. America's burden is not just to fight to save Americans from Saddam Hussein, but to do so in such a way as to save his own people from him as well. That it is our duty to take up these moral responsibilities should not blind us to the fact that others do not." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"Who would have believed 60 years ago that the great critics of democracy in the Middle East would now be American novelists and European utopians, while Indians, Poles, and Japanese were supporting those who just wanted the chance to vote? Who would have thought that a young Marine from the suburbs of Topeka battling the Dark Ages in Fallujah — the real humanist — was doing more to aid the planet than all the billions of the U.N.?"




"Despite the current vogue of questionable and therapeutic ideas like "zero tolerance" and "moral equivalence" that punish all who use force — whether in kindergarten or in the Middle East — striking first is a morally neutral concept. It takes on its ethical character from the landscape in which it takes place — the Israelis bombing the Iraqi reactor to avoid being blackmailed by a soon-to-be nuclear Saddam Hussein, or the French going into the Ivory Coast last year, despite the fact that that chaotic country posed no immediate danger to Paris. The thing to keep in mind is that the real aggressor, by his past acts, has already invited war and will do so again — should he be allowed to choose his own time and place of assault."

"Instead, the elite Westerner talks about “occupied lands” from which Israel has been attacked four times in the last 60 years — in a manner that Germans do not talk about an occupied West they coughed up to France or an occupied East annexed by Poland. Russia lectures about Jenin, but rarely its grab of Japanese islands. Turkey is worried about the West Bank, but not its swallowing much of Cyprus. China weighs in about Palestinian sovereignty but not the entire culture of Tibet; some British aristocrats bemoan Sharon’s supposed land grab, but not Gibraltar. All these foreign territories that were acquired through blood and iron and held on to by reasons of “national security” are somehow different matters when Jews are not involved."

"The Arab street knows full well that we give billions to Jordan, Egypt, and the Palestinians — and are probably baffled that we don't cut it out. They also know we have just as frequently fought Christians on their behalf as Muslims; they know — if their voting feet tell them anything — that no place is more tolerant of their religion or more open to immigration than the United States. Yes, (Radical) Islamists all know that opening a mosque in Detroit is one thing, and opening a church in Saudi Arabia is quite another. Hitler wasn't interested in Wilson's 14 Points or how nicely Germans lived in the U.S. — he cared only that we "cowboys" would not or could not stop what he was up to."

"Sadly, prosperous Westerners never seem to learn of the folly of honoring appeasement and naiveté — the awarding of Nobel Peace Prizes to the likes of a Le Duc Tho and Yasser Arafat, as if global praise might make them statesmen rather than murderers, to a Kim Dae Jung as if his demonstrable kindness would pacify rather than embolden North Korea, or to ex-President Carter as if his well-meaning parleys with tyrants could bring peace. As chief executive emeritus, his saintliness now plays well; but we forget in the rough and tumble of his presidency that Mr. Carter's brag that he had no "inordinate fear of Communism" was followed by the brutal Russian invasion of Afghanistan, that sending Ramsay Clark to apologize to the Iranians did not win the release of the American hostages in 1980, and that U.N. Ambassador Andrew Young's praise of Cuban troops in Africa and his clenched-fist, black-power salutes to African leaders did not stop Communist intervention and bloodletting abroad." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"True, most of the Arab street may curse infidels in Baghdad, but a sizable minority will acknowledge the freedom there and ask, "If there, why not here?" Or: "Don't our own kleptocrats have lavish, glittery palaces of extortion just like Saddam did?" Nothing has been more pathetic in the last few days than listening to in-house Arab "intellectuals" damning the United States, ridiculing the "liberation" of Iraq, and railing at the old bogeyman of "colonialism" — even as they watch demonstrations and a freedom in Baghdad impossible in their own police states. What a burden they must carry: supporting the old Arab nationalist status quo ensures the continual absence of their own independence." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"Once the world sobers up and the frenzy subsides, nations will still want someone to be worried about Iran and North Korea. The Bekka Valley will not disappear. China will still scare its neighbors. Japan will still look to the United States military. The NATO partners won't wish us to leave; Russians will remember that we will never attack them, but always find a way to forgive them for almost everything they do. Egyptians and Jordanians will appreciate that they have slandered Americans and been paid in the process. And despite, or perhaps because of, past appeasement, Islamic terrorists will still hate the defenseless Europeans as much as they do the United States. Meanwhile the American public is tiring of them all — and that will be the real challenge for any president in the years ahead." -- Victor Davis Hanson

"There may well be even more terrible things to come in Iraq than what we have seen already, but there will also be far better things than were there before. And there will come a time, when all those who slandered the efforts — the Germans, the French, the American radical Left, the vicious Michael "Minutemen" Moore, the pampered and coddled Hollywood elite, the Arab League, and the U.N. will assume that Iraq is a "good thing" like Afghanistan, and that democracy there really was preferable — after they had so bravely weighed in with their requisite "ifs" and "buts" — to the mass murders of Saddam Hussein. Yes, they will say all this, but it will be for the rest of us to remember how it all came about and what those forgotten soldiers and people of Iraq went through to get it — lest we forget, lest we forget...."

 

[Z3n]

Too bad, you racist, uncivilized....................

LOL - no wonder you have it all wrong - bad upbringing.

im a collegiate student...