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Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra[W:181:281]

Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Already did. And thank you for continuing to provide verifiable evidence for one of my earlier claims that you took issue with - people with guns trying to spread the idea that police will not protect them so they need their own guns to take to the street to protect themselves. And to think you asked for evidence from me only to provide it yourself.

You make a good witness for my case. Thanks. :2wave:

The reality is that the police protect people and serve people and do their job everyday of the week in over 12,000 communities all over the nation and in all fifty states serving millions of people.

Not one thing you have said negates that basic reality.

Yes - the police are not perfect. Yes, sometimes they do not do a very good job in specific cases. Yes, some bad apples wear badges and do bad things.

Unless we are talking about angels sent from above to serve us in ideal perfection, most adults realize this..... and have for some time now.

Ummm no. you replied to this "There is no duty of the police to protect anyone." and said it was wrong. Again the courts and evidence say you are not correct and that statement is.

This is over. Unless you want to argue with the courts anyway.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Oh I know what myth you mean now. It's the myth that gun control serves any useful purpose to citizens as discussed here

 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

At Sandy Hook, the shooter went unchallenged for over 12 minutes waiting for cops to respond.

Seems to me the premise of this article is just ****ing goofy beyond words. Oh noes...what if a teacher had been armed and plugged that little **** after the first 5 shots. The cops would only have about 10 minutes before they arrived on site to learn that the initial shooter was down and to proceed with caution.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

But yet they do.

"they do" has what to do with a duty?

Argument refuted.

Case closed.

On that you are absolutely correct. Dead.

Any other stunts are simply death throws to be ignored.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

At Sandy Hook, the shooter went unchallenged for over 12 minutes waiting for cops to respond.

Seems to me the premise of this article is just ****ing goofy beyond words. Oh noes...what if a teacher had been armed and plugged that little **** after the first 5 shots. The cops would only have about 10 minutes before they arrived on site to learn that the initial shooter was down and to proceed with caution.

Do note that when the cops arrive they do not rush in to save the day. They are going to "assess" the situation and if shots are being fired they are definitely not going in before that assessment.

The idea these movie and gun control educated fanatics have that the cops will save the day is the biggest myth since gun control.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

But yet they do.

Argument refuted.

Case closed.

You forgot this which completely destroys your claim. Conveniently left out so you could TROLL this thread and continue your false claim in order to annoy people and no more. Why not go play with the kids who probably don't know what you are trying to do.

"It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection."

Sources:

7/15/05 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES No. 04-278 TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, PETITIONER v. JESSICA GONZALES, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS NEXT BEST FRIEND OF HER DECEASED MINOR CHILDREN, REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, AND LESLIE GONZALES
On June 27, in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court found that Jessica Gonzales did not have a constitutional right to individual police protection even in the presence of a restraining order. Mrs. Gonzales' husband with a track record of violence, stabbing Mrs. Gonzales to death, Mrs. Gonzales' family could not get the Supreme Court to change their unanimous decision for one's individual protection. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN FOLKS AND GOVERNMENT BODIES ARE REFUSING TO PASS THE Safety Ordinance.

(1) Richard W. Stevens. 1999. Dial 911 and Die. Hartford, Wisconsin: Mazel Freedom Press.

(2) Barillari v. City of Milwaukee, 533 N.W.2d 759 (Wis. 1995).

(3) Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982).

(4) DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189 (1989).

(5) Ford v. Town of Grafton, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998).

(6) Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. 1981).
"...a government and its agencies are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981)

(7) "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of NY which now denies all responsibility to her."
Riss v. New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579,293 N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 806 (1958).

(8) "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."
Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 (N.C. App. 1989)

New York Times, Washington DC
Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone By LINDA GREENHOUSE Published: June 28, 2005
The ruling applies even for a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

Police have no responsibility to protect individuals (reference)

Is it dead now?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

So in other words...

You still can't refute what I said.

Already did. See the previous posts from me which did just that.

And with this I am done.

So you keep saying but like one of those dead people at the end of bad monster movies you keep coming back anyways.

Banging your head against a wall of ignorance is no fun.

Then start learning and stop banging.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

You forgot this which completely destroys your claim. Conveniently left out so you could TROLL this thread and continue your false claim in order to annoy people and no more. Why not go play with the kids who probably don't know what you are trying to do.

"It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection."

Sources:

7/15/05 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES No. 04-278 TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, PETITIONER v. JESSICA GONZALES, INDIVIDUALLY AND AS NEXT BEST FRIEND OF HER DECEASED MINOR CHILDREN, REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, AND LESLIE GONZALES
On June 27, in the case of Castle Rock v. Gonzales, the Supreme Court found that Jessica Gonzales did not have a constitutional right to individual police protection even in the presence of a restraining order. Mrs. Gonzales' husband with a track record of violence, stabbing Mrs. Gonzales to death, Mrs. Gonzales' family could not get the Supreme Court to change their unanimous decision for one's individual protection. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN FOLKS AND GOVERNMENT BODIES ARE REFUSING TO PASS THE Safety Ordinance.

(1) Richard W. Stevens. 1999. Dial 911 and Die. Hartford, Wisconsin: Mazel Freedom Press.

(2) Barillari v. City of Milwaukee, 533 N.W.2d 759 (Wis. 1995).

(3) Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982).

(4) DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189 (1989).

(5) Ford v. Town of Grafton, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998).

(6) Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. 1981).
"...a government and its agencies are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981)

(7) "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of NY which now denies all responsibility to her."
Riss v. New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579,293 N.Y.S.2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 806 (1958).

(8) "Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the general public."
Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 (N.C. App. 1989)

New York Times, Washington DC
Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone By LINDA GREENHOUSE Published: June 28, 2005
The ruling applies even for a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

Police have no responsibility to protect individuals (reference)

Is it dead now?

But they do serve and protect anyways. They do every day in every state of this great nation despite no legal obligation to do so. That simple reality of the 12,000 different police departments in America shows your citations are irrelevant.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Ummm no. you replied to this "There is no duty of the police to protect anyone." and said it was wrong. Again the courts and evidence say you are not correct and that statement is.

This is over. Unless you want to argue with the courts anyway.

Because the police do serve and protect the American public every day. That simple reality is what makes your statement wrong.

You see sir , you are talking legal theory and I am talking reality. And reality bites theory in the ass every single time taking a huge chunk out of it rendering it but a curious oddity.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

"they do" has what to do with a duty?

THEY DO ... on a daily basis all over this great nation ....is a practical reality that defeats your claim of legal duty or obligation. That is what it has to do with it.

most of the people who sit at the adults table a week from today know that those decisions are to limit legal liability so as to protect municipalities from lawsuits which could bankrupt them from a claim that "I called the cops and they did not come in time".
 
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Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Consider this: You do not manage to shoot the bad guy. Instead, you've missed and unknowingly hit a couple of civilians.

Consider this: While you are attempting to shoot a bad guy, the police arrive. Since you appear to be shooting at people, they shoot you.

Consider this: You are attempting to shoot the bad guy. Out of your field of vision, a couple cops are creeping in on him. They can't get close enough because your line of fire is preventing them. They can't tell you to stop without revealing their position. The bad guy gets away.

Consider this: You are attempting to shoot the bad guy. The bad guy shoots you instead.

Consider this: You are attempting to shoot the bad guy. So are two other people. One of them concludes you're another bad guy and shoots you.

Consider this: You are attempting to shoot the bad guy. So are two other people. You conclude that one of them is also a bad guy and you shoot him. Now you face murder charges.




The "good guy with a gun" twaddle is a myth based on good intentions and a deluded understanding of combat situations, as well as a massive dose of assuming the best possible conditions for yourself.

Essentially all of those points there apply to the police in this scenario ad well.

Disarm the police?

What-ifs tend to fail as an argument.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Because the police do serve and protect the American public every day. That simple reality is what makes your statement wrong.

You see sir , you are talking legal theory and I am talking reality. And reality bites theory in the ass every single time taking a huge chunk out of it rendering it but a curious oddity.

No. What makes you wrong and still wrong is they have no duty under the law to do so. This is an undeniable fact. So you can keep making excuses and trying desperately to make it about something other than what you responded to but you can't.

So stop with the fallacies and just admit you are wrong.

This statement is true... "There is no duty of the police to protect anyone."

End of story.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

No. What makes you wrong and still wrong is they have no duty under the law to do so.

And still they do so regardless. That simple reality takes you big fancy legal statement and renders it a curious but irrelevant oddity in everyday life and how the 12,000 police departments perform their job.

And most of the people who sit at the adults table a week from today understand completely the basis behind those rulings - to limit local units of government from being bankrupted by lawsuits from people claiming the cops did not come soon enough or protect them from a crime.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Essentially all of those points there apply to the police in this scenario ad well.

Disarm the police?

What-ifs tend to fail as an argument.

Yes - the professionals trained to enforce the law and protect and serve the American people as opposed to some civilian hoping he hits his target so he can tell his Dirty Harry stories to his buddies.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Yes - the professionals trained to enforce the law and protect and serve the American people as opposed to some civilian hoping he hits his target so he can tell his Dirty Harry stories to his buddies.

Civilians can have just as much, if not more training than police.

And that still doesnt refute the fact that mr person's post was the epitome of ignorance since those what ifs can apply to police, fully.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Essentially all of those points there apply to the police in this scenario ad well.

Disarm the police?

What-ifs tend to fail as an argument.

the fact is-something the statists refuse to admit, is that we have lots of data about police shootings and private citizens shootings involving criminals.

we have no cases of private civilians wrongfully shooting someone they
perceived to be a criminal say 42 times as was the case of two NYC cops shooting an unarmed individual reaching for his wallet.

the fact is-cops are MORE LIKELY to miss the intended bad guy than private citizens
the fact is-COPS are more likely to shoot an innocent person than a private citizen is


the fact is-MOST COPS don't shoot all that much in terms of practice
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

And still they do so regardless. That simple reality takes you big fancy legal statement and renders it a curious but irrelevant oddity in everyday life and how the 12,000 police departments perform their job.

And most of the people who sit at the adults table a week from today understand completely the basis behind those rulings - to limit local units of government from being bankrupted by lawsuits from people claiming the cops did not come soon enough or protect them from a crime.

Has nothing at all to do with the statement and your reply saying it's not true when it is.

So keep trying to deflect, I will keep pointing out what was actually said.

this is true...

"There is no duty of the police to protect anyone."

You saying it's not is false.

End of argument.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Civilians can have just as much, if not more training than police.

And that still doesnt refute the fact that mr person's post was the epitome of ignorance since those what ifs can apply to police, fully.

I am sure that some do. No doubt there are people who can do some of the things that doctors do on occasion also. You can say the same for many professions.

However, If I have to put my trust in a trained professional having to shoot a gun in a crowded public area or a civilian doing the same - the vast majority of the time I will put my trust in the trained professional.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Has nothing at all to do with the statement and your reply saying it's not true when it is.

So keep trying to deflect, I will keep pointing out what was actually said.

this is true...

"There is no duty of the police to protect anyone."

You saying it's not is false.

End of argument.

The reality that police protect the public every day despite the law saying they are not obligated to (because of legal liability and financial considerations) trumps that legal fiction as in reality the police protect people as part of their job as professionals.

Please tell me that you understand the difference between reality and theory.

Right?
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

But they do serve and protect anyways. They do every day in every state of this great nation despite no legal obligation to do so. That simple reality of the 12,000 different police departments in America shows your citations are irrelevant.

And that is not what you claimed is it. So why not just say your claim was false instead of this crap? Or is this a Haymarket (TM) admission of being wrong?

The citations show that the liars of gun control are of the worst kind in that they will happily advocate people rely on the police for protection and get them killed.
 
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Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

And that is not what you claimed is it. So why not just say your claim was false instead of this crap? Or is this a Haymarket (TM) admission of being wrong?

Please quote my claim so I can read what you claimed is false.

I will then be happy to speak directly to it.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

The reality that police protect the public every day despite the law saying they are not obligated to (because of legal liability and financial considerations) trumps that legal fiction as in reality the police protect people as part of their job as professionals.

The job of the police is to investigate crime. It is not to protect people and is not even in the job description. Nor is there any legal obligation for the police to protect anyone even if requested and mandated by law. The police cannot be held accountable for not doing so. Nor is it possible for the police to protect anyone as there are insufficient to do so.

Please tell me that you understand the difference between reality and theory.

You just got another lesson. This one in reality. The theory the police can protect anyone is a myth created by gun control in order to have more deaths to use for propaganda purposes and convince people they will be safe with the police protecting them.


Has never applied to anything you have claimed. :shock:

Please give me another opportunity to hammer gun control
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

Please quote my claim so I can read what you claimed is false.

I will then be happy to speak directly to it.

You want me to quote your claim? What can't you remember? Go back and read it then.

You claimed gun control was a lie :2wave:
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

The job of the police is to investigate crime. It is not to protect people and is not even in the job description.

So you are unfamiliar with the concept of TO SERVE AND PROTECT?

The theory the police can protect anyone is a myth created by gun control in order to have more deaths to use for propaganda purposes and convince people they will be safe with the police protecting them.

So when the 12,000 different police departments stop people driving dangerously on our roads and highways, it is your claim that no American is being protected?

So when the 12,000 different police departments arrest people for the commission of crimes, is is your claim that no American is being protected?

That is a very interesting outlook that has nothing to do with everyday reality in America.
 
Re: Counter Argument on NRA's "Good Guy with a gun" mantra

You want me to quote your claim? What can't you remember? Go back and read it then.

Yes, quote me and tell me why you believe it is factually incorrect.
 
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