Conflicting Goals on Tariff application

[anatta]

Trump actually used to be a vocal supporter for legalizing all drugs. I used to think it was evidence of perhaps a small libertarian streak in him but I was wrong.

his brother was a stone cold alcoholic . Trump became a crusader against dope

 

[Gozaburo]

rather the private sector should duke it out.

You won't believe what they've been doing for the last 60 years.

 

[aociswundumho]

Were you born in 2009? You won't believe what happened the year prior.

The private sector lost 19 trillion in wealth from 07 to 09.

I'll note that while you can easily point out outliers, public sector investment does work. China does a shitload of it and they're eating our breakfast. All things in moderation, as they say.

What is the metric you are using to determine success?

Well sure but Hitler did that through massive amounts of subsidization via the central government. If anything this is a shout in favor of state investment lmao.

No, it's the opposite. There are enormous opportunity costs when you rob the population of its money to build what politicians want.

The broader point is that the financialization of the economy is a problem that needs addressing in a multipolar world. You either have solutions or you'e part of the problem.

What specifically is the problem you are referring to.

 

[Ishm]

Think how much better off we'd all be if the previous administration had enacted the following plan, securing let's say $4B in government funds to:

1. Build an alternate "fake" White House and staff it with actors playing government officials and cabinet leaders.

2. Rebadge a Trump Force One jet to whisk him between the White House and various golf courses.

3. Hire a media company to construct "news" content praising Donald's work, singing his praises and expressing positive voter reaction to each of his executive orders. Needs to be staffed to create roughly ~6 hours of video media and perhaps 30-40 "headline and summary" print articles each day. Obviously, any news about what is actually going on or who is actually President would need to be filtered out, but Donald is fairly gullible so this should not be a tall ask to keep him in the dark.

Then, tell him that Joe Biden, SCOTUS and America decided to appoint him as President for Life because he is so Strong and Tremendous (he'll buy it), fly him to the fake White House after a fake inauguration ceremony (offer Americans $200 to attend so he can feel good about the largest ever crowd) and let him play President for the rest of his days.

Heck, rather than a cost we could even Truman Show it and perhaps make some money!

Would have been a heck of lot cheaper than letting Trump play his mindless games with the nations economy.

 

[Gozaburo]

The private sector lost 19 trillion in wealth from 07 to 09.

Right.

What is the metric you are using to determine success?

How about roads?

No, it's the opposite. There are enormous opportunity costs when you rob the population of its money to build what politicians want.

And there aren't opportunity costs when you allow the capitalist to do the same? I don't think Blackrock is making property any cheaper.

What specifically is the problem you are referring to.

The burgeoning service industry (which includes tons of low wage jobs) is one significant problem. Speculation and venture capital also drives a lot of the escalation in demand in the housing market, making property more expensive and potentially driving recessions.

 

[Captain Adverse]

But he has put no actual singular goal for tariffs. He says he wants those element (fair trade) but then he says he wants long term revenues by keeping tariffs in place. those goals conflict.

First, you asked what his goals were with tariffs. My response listed the various reasons for placing tariffs, and why some were so high.

If the goal to reduce trade barriers and deficits as well as equivalent tariff rates.- then it's relying too much on tariffs instead of trade talks/agreements.

That's not the only goal. Among the other goals I listed was to have foreign businesses build factories in the USA to employ American citizens, and in THAT way avoid tariffs on those products.

Tariffs can even be onerous to get the other party to negotiate (Like the Phase 1 China deal by 45)
but other then using tariffs to reduce trade barriers, it requires bilateral/negotiated trade agreements. Think Robert Lighthizer and his ability to forge agreements

Okay.

absolutely. They will come about with favorable trade conditions, and incentives to build here. Not just tariffs.
Over reliance on just tariffs is not using all your leverage//tools

Supply chain security as well has to be long terms goals powered by more then just tariffs

Correct.

 

[Captain Adverse]

The private sector is driven off the profit motive. Trump is trying to lower taxes and remove unnecessary regulations. He's laying off unneeded goverment workers and closing goverment divisions to help staff new private sector factories. He's attracting billions in foreign investments and capital. That said, Trump's not a Biden clone who arbitrarily picks the hot topic of the week spraying money out like a fire hose. Use the Chip Act as an example. Industries winners and losers should not be picked by the goverment, rather the private sector should duke it out.

Yep. Competition usually benefits the consumer as the businesses compete for customers.

 

[bongsaway]

Does Trump want to negotiate more then he wants to use tariffs?? another conflict. They gotta clarify this

Trump wants other countries to bend the knee and kiss the ring. He wants power over others. I once watched a movie when the good guy asked the bad guy, you have all the money in the world why are you being such a monster, don't you have enough money. The bad guys says, yes, I have plenty and it's not about money, it's about making people do things they don't want to do, it's about power, not money.

 

[bongsaway]

Yep. Competition usually benefits the consumer as the businesses compete for customers.

You believe that in today's world? The big swallow up the little preventing competition not enhancing it.

 

[eohrnberger]

"The "newz" media and Democrats are fear mongering over the dip in the Dow, but they ignored the 2+ year long Dow slump under Biden."

This typical and unsurprising.

We've witnessed how the 'newz' gave the Biden administration and their radical leftists cover time and time again during that administration, up to and including covering up for Ol' Joe's infirmities, covering up that Ol' Joe was unfit for office, something they've never done nor would never do, for any non-Democrat nor non-Democrat administration.

No, for non-Democrat administration they fabricate smears and hoaxes out of whole cloth, gin up fauxrage over some non-issue.

The only thing which has changed over the last decade is that they no longer care that they've become obvious at it, hence their falling, and continuing to fall, trust and credibility polling results, all of which have been self-inflicted.

 

[eohrnberger]

It's not a matter of trust, it's about POTUS trying to use tariffs for more then reciprocal equality of trade ( so called fair trade)
at the same time his advisors are putting out conflicting statements of use. It happens with all administrations.

Trump problem in particular is not messaging a clear goal. Thats important as the uncertainty is driving the markets as much as the actual tariffs.

I'd agree that the administration is giving mixed messages, and this isn't helping calm anyone nor Wall Street nor the private sector.

Like I mentioned tariff should be used to level the playing field, not as an instrument of long terms re-shoring.
Trade agreements and tax policy are for those goals

You are just confused, and not seeing the picture even though it has already been pointed out.

Trump has SEVERAL goals when it comes to trade issues.

Agreed.

1. In certain areas when it comes to actual trade and dealing with tariffs and VATs, he want's low to no tariffs and no VAT's at all.

This can be done quickly, in most cases.

2. In other areas, like Steel production, Mineral mining, oil production, and rare earths development he wants fair trade while also developing those resources at home.

Agreed, but this is going to take a number of years.

3. In the area of production of trade and use goods he wants to bring production home too. He wants autos, computers, and chips made in the USA, the latter for security purposes.

Agreed, but this, again, is going to take a number of years, perhaps beyond his administration.

I disagree. He has always been very clear on the above listed items. He wants America to be less and less dependent on foreign sources for critical production and electronic systems. He also wants good-paying jobs here at home for American citizens.

Those are his trade goals.

 

[Greenbeard]

The end goal is zero-tariffs between the USA and other countries AND roughly zero trade deficit.

No, it isn’t, Trump has said many times he wants tariff revenue to replace income tax revenue. He waxes poetic about how much richer we were in the 1890s thanks to tariffs every time he talks about them. The goal is a return to 19th century economics, not zero tariffs.

 

[Callen]

Does Trump want to negotiate more then he wants to use tariffs?? another conflict. They gotta clarify this

Totally agree . The messaging has been very confusing. One minute he says the tarrifs are permanent and designed to bring manufacturing back , the next minute it is because America is being ripped off by other countries and the tarriffs are a negotiation tool to remove trade barriers.

Quite frankly, the States has moved strongly into a world leadership role in high tech and busihess services. Seems to me growing those sectors rather than new factories for textiles, toys, kitchen ware and the rest of the stuff you see in Wal-Mart is what would really make America great.

 

[anatta]

Totally agree . The messaging has been very confusing. One minute he says the tarrifs are permanent and designed to bring manufacturing back , the next minute it is because America is being ripped off by other countries and the tarriffs are a negotiation tool to remove trade barriers.

Quite frankly, the States has moved strongly into a world leadership role in high tech and busihess services. Seems to me growing those sectors rather than new factories for textiles, toys, kitchen ware and the rest of the stuff you see in Wal-Mart is what would really make America great.

we need more manufacturing too though. if for no reason then to secure critical supply chains.
And Trump is getting commitments. This idea of long term tariffs for tariffs sake though has got to go. Navarro has got to go

 

[anatta]

"The "newz" media and Democrats are fear mongering over the dip in the Dow, but they ignored the 2+ year long Dow slump under Biden."

This typical and unsurprising.

We've witnessed how the 'newz' gave the Biden administration and their radical leftists cover time and time again during that administration, up to and including covering up for Ol' Joe's infirmities, covering up that Ol' Joe was unfit for office, something they've never done nor would never do, for any non-Democrat nor non-Democrat administration.

No, for non-Democrat administration they fabricate smears and hoaxes out of whole cloth, gin up fauxrage over some non-issue.

The only thing which has changed over the last decade is that they no longer care that they've become obvious at it, hence their falling, and continuing to fall, trust and credibility polling results, all of which have been self-inflicted.

forget the Dems. Now the problem is the House is balking at Senate spending cuts.
Gotta get that done

 

[eohrnberger]

forget the Dems. Now the problem is the House is balking at Senate spending cuts.
Gotta get that done

Between the reduction in fraud, waste and abuse, and spending cuts (i.e. return to a pre-COVID spending level or there abouts), might even have some sort of semblance of a reasonable level of spending.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

we need more manufacturing too though. if for no reason then to secure critical supply chains.
And Trump is getting commitments. This idea of long term tariffs for tariffs sake though has got to go. Navarro has got to go

This is so dumb, the reason for long term tariffs...is.....wait for it......to cause re-shoring of your mfg jerbs. You can't counter lower labor costs elsewhere unless you keep the tariffs in place, to cause the jobs to pop-up here.

How do you think you get reshoring with temporary tariffs? Temp tariffs might work to cause the other to lower theirs, but that will not result in any significant reshoring so long as the labor cost advantage remains.