Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

HowardBThiname · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

shrubnose said:
Ignoring racism won't make it go away. We need to shine a bright light on it every time that it rears its ugly head.

I believe you have a good heart - you just don't realize the racism this kind of thing stirs up. If you care to research, you will find many blacks who identify with the Confederate flag because their ancestors fought. Now, you've got this thing going where you're going to whip up a feeding frenzy of black people who never really gave the flag a second thought - or - the liked it. You've got them convinced they're supposed to hate a symbol, and along with hating the symbol, you're going to create hatred of the people who still identify with it. Not the racists - they're a drop in the bucket. You're going to drive a wedge between people of color and people who loved the old flag because it represented survival and rebuilding.

What good is that? It's a giant step backwards in race relations.

Paperview · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
Just because Lincoln wanted to maintain the union does not mean he is against state rights.... just because he advocated against slavery as a moral wrong does Not mean he is against state rights...

dood.

You called Southern Dems liberals/Federalists -- then you said the republicans were the part of States rights. Then "the foundations of the Republican party never changed, nor the democratic party." So, so wrong.

Lincoln actually advocated for a amendment to the constitution for slavery to be legal and up to the states....Corwin Amendment

Jezuz H. on a pogo stick: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/227177-confederate-flag-6.html#post1064746982

Paperview · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

tech30528 said:
Great username. But you need to look in to some history.

I do.

It's what I do for a living.

For decades.

Just ad homing me doesn't make much of a case.

BTW: The reason for my user name is because I work with original documents, letters from the Revolution Era to Civil War - some that are now in museums and Institutions. Some have been written about in books.

Thousands of original Civil war soldiers letters have passed through my hands, as well as original items signed by near every CW General and near every Founder and President...

Letters and docs actually signed by Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln . Yes. I've touched the exact same paper they touched.

It's pretty humbling.

ALiberalModerate · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
Only?

I guess that's where we disagree... I can show you so many different things on what the common confederate soldier was concerned about, why the war happened, etc... it's become a cultural symbol, slavery used to be a cultural issue, now it's not in southern culture... that has changed, and that was never the only cultural issue and it wasn't debatably the most important cultural issue to the common southern soldier in the civil war.

Similarly, the typical Nazi soldier was not fighting specifically because he personally wanted to exterminate all the Jews and other minorities. Nevertheless, their cause was an evil one. The typical confederate soldier was not a slave owner, but their cause was an evil one just the same.

I am sure a burning cross has different meanings to some people, but we all know what a burning cross really means, and the same is true for the confederate battle flag.

shrubnose · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HowardBThiname said:
I believe you have a good heart -

you just don't realize the racism this kind of thing stirs up

Click to expand...

. If you care to research, you will find many blacks who identify with the Confederate flag because their ancestors fought. Now, you've got this thing going where you're going to whip up a feeding frenzy of black people who never really gave the flag a second thought - or - the liked it. You've got them convinced they're supposed to hate a symbol, and along with hating the symbol, you're going to create hatred of the people who still identify with it. Not the racists - they're a drop in the bucket. You're going to drive a wedge between people of color and people who loved the old flag because it represented survival and rebuilding.

What good is that? It's a giant step backwards in race relations.

The Confederate flag is a racist symbol and no state should require it to be displayed.

It will be gone from every state display in the near future.

Wait and see.

Of course that won't stop you or anyone else from having it tattooed on your forehead.

:lol:

tech30528 · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Paperview said:
I do.

It's what I do for a living.

For decades.

Just ad homing me doesn't make much of a case.

BTW: The reason for my user name is because I work with original documents, letters from the Revolution Era to Civil War - some that are now in museums and Institutions. Some have been written about in books.

Thousands of original Civil war soldiers letters have passed through my hands, as well as original items signed by near every CW General and near every Founder and President...

Letters and docs actually signed by Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln . Yes. I've touched the exact same paper they touched.

It's pretty humbling.

That... is incredibly cool. Appreciate any perspective you can add. I'm really tired of being labelled a redneck because I moved to Georgia 13 years ago after 22 years in the Chicago burbs and like the study of ballistics. Never owned a slave.

ALiberalModerate · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

sawdust said:
To keep the union whole Lincoln offered to let the south keep their slaves. He would not allow the new territories who would later become states the right to slavery however. While the south had an issue with that, there were other issues. Pro slavery Democrats were upset with Republican abolitionists in the north. To gain control of the federal legislature, the south wanted slaves counted in the census for the purpose of counting legislators. The abolitionists only allowed slaves to be counted as 3/5th of a person for the census thus taking votes away in the house of representatives for the south and decreasing their impact in Federal government.

The south succeeded. Two years after succession Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation hoping to create a slave rebellion in the south and further taxing confederate troops. He allowed some northern states to keep their slaves and the institution of slavery lasted until after the war was over and congress ratified the thirteenth amendment.

To say that the civil war was about slavery isn't quite true. It was a large issue but Lincoln was willing to let the south keep their slaves and there were many more issues that contributed to the south's unhappiness with the union. In the end it's more accurate to say that the war was fought over states rights and federal power.

Some of this I knew. Some I garnered from my participation in these discussions and independent reading I did as a result. Thank you.

Thank you, but I am aware of the history leading up to the Civil War. The questions are:

Why was the South so concerned about the territories being allowed to have slavery? Why was the south trying to inflate their numbers in the House? Because the South wanted to preserve the institution of slavery at all costs. That is the only "states right" they were concerned with and the fact is the whole thing was ultimately about slavery. The South left the Union in an attempt to preserve the evil institution of slavery. I am from the south, I love the south, but the civil war is a shame upon it.

Linc · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Do you give any creedence to the conclusion that the Tariff of 1828, aka Tariff of Abominations, lit the fuse to what would happen 33 years later ?

SouthernDemocrat said:
Thank you, but I am aware of the history leading up to the Civil War. The questions are:

Why was the South so concerned about the territories being allowed to have slavery? Why was the south trying to inflate their numbers in the House? Because the South wanted to preserve the institution of slavery at all costs. That is the only "states right" they were concerned with and the fact is the whole thing was ultimately about slavery. The South left the Union in an attempt to preserve the evil institution of slavery. I am from the south, I love the south, but the civil war is a shame upon it.

ALiberalModerate · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

NIMBY said:
Do you give any creedence to the conclusion that the Tariff of 1828, aka Tariff of Abominations, lit the fuse to what would happen 33 years later ?

Only in so far as it gave British Abolitionists an economic tool to use against slavery in the Southern United States (refusing to buy southern cotton). Anyway you slice it, the whole thing revolved around the issue of slavery.

sawdust · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

SouthernDemocrat said:
Thank you, but I am aware of the history leading up to the Civil War. The questions are:

Why was the South so concerned about the territories being allowed to have slavery? Why was the south trying to inflate their numbers in the House? Because the South wanted to preserve the institution of slavery at all costs. That is the only "states right" they were concerned with and the fact is the whole thing was ultimately about slavery. The South left the Union in an attempt to preserve the evil institution of slavery. I am from the south, I love the south, but the civil war is a shame upon it.

After doing some additional research I've determined that there are many disagreements about the true start of the Civil War and that the southern states didn't even agree on their issues. I'm not going to go any further than I've gone because if historians don't agree, I'm not finding agreement either. Here's some reading if you are interested. The Reasons for Secession

Objective Voice · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

People need to stop pretending that slavery wasn't a BIG reason why the south seceded from the Union, as well as, stop hiding being "state's rights" or that "old southern way of life" mantra. Yes, economics played a role back then but the fact remains that many White southerns whether rich and influential or dirt poor and racist didn't want Negros to be seen as anything more than property. And, hence, the leading reason for the Civil War. Pretend if you want that the South didn't want "them damn Yankees telling them how to run their lives" if you wish, but the fact remains there were racist, segregationist, bigoted and hateful Whites back then who only wanted to see Blacks either behind them or in front of a whip.

Harsh, but true.

Now, about the Confederate Flag...abolished, no. In a museum, yes, or flow only over Confederate War Memorial sites. It should never be flown above state capital buildings or other such facilities. That's why each (southern) state has its own state flag. If you wish to wave it to show your southern pride, do so WITH the understanding that some people - both Black and White - may look at you sideways and project a deserved pre-conceived notion towards you.

Cryptic · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Objective Voice said:
People need to stop pretending that slavery wasn't a BIG reason why the south seceded from the Union, as well as, stop hiding being "state's rights" or that "old southern way of life" mantra. Yes, economics played a role back then but the fact remains that many White southerns whether rich and influential or dirt poor and racist didn't want Negros to be seen as anything more than property. And, hence, the leading reason for the Civil War. .

The sentence: "many whites" whether rich or dirt poor and whether resding in the north or the south didn't want Negros to be seen as anything more than property" would be far more accurate.

That aside, the basis for the civil war seems to be:

CSA: We are leaving to preserve slavery
USA: Leaving is an act of war. BTW, we have no intention of banning slavery. In fact, slave ownership by loyal citizens is welcome.
CSA: We dont trust you, we are leaving anyways.
USA: The war is on.

I fail to see how the this fact pattern should glorify the union that was willing to expend hundreds of thousands of lives making a political point.

Objective Voice said:
but the fact remains there were racist, segregationist, bigoted and hateful Whites back then who only wanted to see Blacks either behind them or in front of a whip.

Harsh, but true.

Very true and very harsh. Of course, not all people with that view lived in the south.

Wiggen · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Thrilla said:
too many babies crying about a flag.:roll:

it's a cool flag... keep it.

Just like the Swastika, eh? Cool?:lamo

Wiggen · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Cryptic said:
The sentence: "many whites" whether rich or dirt poor and whether resding in the north or the south didn't want Negros to be seen as anything more than property" would be far more accurate.

That aside, the basis for the civil war seems to be:

CSA: We are leaving to preserve slavery
USA: Leaving is an act of war. BTW, we have no intention of banning slavery. In fact, slave ownership by loyal citizens is welcome.
CSA: We dont trust you, we are leaving anyways.
USA: The war is on.

I fail to see how the this fact pattern should glorify the union that was willing to expend hundreds of thousands of lives making a political point.

Very true and very harsh. Of course, not all people with that view lived in the south.

No, but they were the only ones willing to destroy the country to preserve that right. And your simplistic summation of the causes of the Civil War is ludicrous.

matchlight · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

shrubnose said:
The Confederate flag is a racist symbol and no state should require it to be displayed.

It will be gone from every state display in the near future.

Wait and see.

Of course that won't stop you or anyone else from having it tattooed on your forehead.

:lol:

Any state that chooses to can display the Stars and Bars just as long as it damned well pleases. What authority do you imagine you have, or anyone else not resident in a state has, to tell that state it cannot fly that flag? I know it's a constant source of vexation for statists, but we have a federal government in this country--not a national one.

Glen Contrarian · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

matchlight said:
Any state that chooses to can display the Stars and Bars just as long as it damned well pleases. What authority do you imagine you have, or anyone else not resident in a state has, to tell that state it cannot fly that flag? I know it's a constant source of vexation for statists, but we have a federal government in this country--not a national one.

Sure - let that state do so...and as the rest of the nation slowly comes to realize that the "stars and bars" should be seen in the same light as the Nazi flag, there will be fewer and fewer corporations that want to be based there. More and more people will see it as a symbol of shame for that state, and fewer educated people will want to live there. But then, looking at the map below, the state's-rights crowd has never cared much for education or financial independence for their people:

matchlight · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Objective Voice said:
Now, about the Confederate Flag...abolished, no. In a museum, yes, or flow only over Confederate War Memorial sites. It should never be flown above state capital buildings or other such facilities. That's why each (southern) state has its own state flag. If you wish to wave it to show your southern pride, do so WITH the understanding that some people - both Black and White - may look at you sideways and project a deserved pre-conceived notion towards you.

Seems like you've got it all worked out how other people should live--"should" this, and "should" that. Any state is free to fly the Stars and Bars over its capitol building, or any other damned place it sees fit. And if the un-American liar currently disgracing the White House doesn't like that, he can stuff it right up his jack. If I lived in one of the former Confederate states, I would not give a moment's thought to how anyone looked at me for displaying that flag, or what notion of me they had because of it. They could take their looks and notions and go straight to Hell.

Cryptic · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Wiggen said:
No, but they were the only ones willing to destroy the country to preserve that right. And your simplistic summation of the causes of the Civil War is ludicrous.

You guys cant have it both ways:

First arguments are presented that contend that the south's desire to maintain slavery was the only cause of the civil war. The fact is that the north had no intention of banning slavery and readily accepted loyal citiznes who owned slaves.

Then you contend that this description is too "simplified". Which is it?

matchlight · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Glen Contrarian said:
Sure - let that state do so...and as the rest of the nation slowly comes to realize that the "stars and bars" should be seen in the same light as the Nazi flag, there will be fewer and fewer corporations that want to be based there. More and more people will see it as a symbol of shame for that state, and fewer educated people will want to live there. But then, looking at the map below, the state's-rights crowd has never cared much for education or financial independence for their people:

By "the state's-rights crowd," I assume you mean true Americans who respect the federalist system designed into our Constitution, and expressed in the Tenth Amendment. The Framers viewed the concentration of power in a national government as an invitation to tyranny and a threat to individual liberties, just as I do, and they carefully structured the Constitution to prevent it. That structure thwarts the centralized control statists so dearly want, and it is an important reason why they, with their taste for totalitarian government, loathe the Constitution and most things American.

Thrilla · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Wiggen said:
Just like the Swastika, eh? Cool?:lamo

yes.. exactly.

Bodi · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

American said:
Yeah, whatever.

You don't like sarcasm?

Bodi · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

calamity said:
A culture of whips, chains and raping African women. Gee lets waive a flag and celebrate.

The American Flag represents all of that too, as does the Union Jack of England, the Aussie flag and Southern State Flags... so?

Bodi · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

calamity said:
It's an odd sense of patriotism when someone waives a flag representing a failed rebellion.

So had the colonies lost waving the American Flag would be wrong too? That's interesting...

American · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
You don't like sarcasm?

,

Bodi · Jun 23, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

shrubnose said:
How about murdering innocent Black people in a church?

Do you think that anyone should be proud of that?

Fill us in.

:lol:

Are Southerners proud of that because from what I have seen the grief and love being displayed by Southerners is ASTOUNDING.

Some people on this planet see racism for what it is.

Others will ignore it until the end of time.

But the racist Confederate flags that some states display will come down.

Wait and see.

It might but we will have to wait and see... declaring it done before it happens is silly though.

No one can stop time and/or change.

The clock is ticking.

How do you know? Maybe time stops all the time and we just don't know it happens.

What power does a dead man have over anything?

Fill us in.

:lol:

He died a few years ago, so what? Show some respect.

That said, what ridiculous logic shrub, unlike you from what I remember... dead people have all sorts of power from martyrs to teachers to lessons, etc. Gandhi, Hitler, Jesus.

Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

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