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Concerned about that 20 trillion in debt?

Dittohead not!

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Here's some fuel to add to that fire.

It seems that (1) the deficit is only a part of the borrowing that is adding to that pile of debt, and
that the deficit is projected to go up this year, and
That is before any tax cuts, trillion dollar expenditures on infrastructure, or multi billion dollar walls:

Deficit: The amount by which the government’s total budget outlays exceeds its total receipts for a fiscal year. —US Senate Budget Committee
In FY 2016 the federal deficit was $585 billion. But the gross federal debt increased by $1400 billion. Here is why.
This year, FY 2017, the federal government in its latest budget has estimated that the deficit will be $603 billion.
I hadn't heard a lot about the federal deficit or the debt (yes! I know the difference! Let's not beat that dead horse again!) since the election, and got to wondering. I found this site, with a link to yet another site. Check it out.
 
Concerned about that 20 trillion in debt?

i doubt it. Republicans are only concerned about it when the other side is in charge, and even then, they aren't willing to give up tax cuts to help pay it down. Democrats don't seem concerned about it at all. it's like being 20, living in a party house, and wondering about who's paying the electric bill. everyone living there only cares about it in an abstract sense.
 
Here's some fuel to add to that fire.

It seems that (1) the deficit is only a part of the borrowing that is adding to that pile of debt, and
that the deficit is projected to go up this year, and
That is before any tax cuts, trillion dollar expenditures on infrastructure, or multi billion dollar walls:


I hadn't heard a lot about the federal deficit or the debt (yes! I know the difference! Let's not beat that dead horse again!) since the election, and got to wondering. I found this site, with a link to yet another site. Check it out.

I have found that the only time a politcian cares how much something costs is when it is something they are against. Those who oppose Obama-care and social security will scream bloody murder on how it will bankrupt us. But those same people seem to think we should use are hard earned tax dollars to but into the affairs of other countries. Those who lick the testicles of illegals will claim how we can't afford a wall while voting for Obama-care, foreign aid and other **** that makes the "huge" one time cost of the wall pale in comparison to what it costs use to be giving away money to other countries and free health care..
 
i doubt it. Republicans are only concerned about it when the other side is in charge, and even then, they aren't willing to give up tax cuts to help pay it down. Democrats don't seem concerned about it at all. it's like being 20, living in a party house, and wondering about who's paying the electric bill. everyone living there only cares about it in an abstract sense.

Exactly. When the Republicans are in charge, the Democrats are concerned about spending. . When the Democrats are in charge, the Republicans are concerned about spending. Neither party is pro fiscal responsibility. Tax cuts are popular, after all, but spending cuts are not.
 
i doubt it. Republicans are only concerned about it when the other side is in charge, and even then, they aren't willing to give up tax cuts to help pay it down. Democrats don't seem concerned about it at all. it's like being 20, living in a party house, and wondering about who's paying the electric bill. everyone living there only cares about it in an abstract sense.

Republican politicians maybe, but not republican voters. We want a balanced budget and there is a movement to call a constitutional convention to put in an amendment requiring a balanced budget. That is still going on and states are signing on fairly regularly. Twelve states have signed on. Twenty two more are needed. If it happens, there will be term limits and budget constraints.

BTW, when Obama ran against McCain I said we had a choice between going bankrupt in 5 years or 10. The problem with the Republican establishment is that they are democrats pretending to be conservative.
 
Here's some fuel to add to that fire.

It seems that (1) the deficit is only a part of the borrowing that is adding to that pile of debt, and
that the deficit is projected to go up this year, and
That is before any tax cuts, trillion dollar expenditures on infrastructure, or multi billion dollar walls:


I hadn't heard a lot about the federal deficit or the debt (yes! I know the difference! Let's not beat that dead horse again!) since the election, and got to wondering. I found this site, with a link to yet another site. Check it out.
That site is very good for summoning up custom charts. Anyone who reads my posts may know that I like to use three main sources of charts, usgovernmentspending.com, usgovernmentrevenue.com and Fred.

Onto the importance of the deficit and debt: I stated here why deficits and debt are not imported under the condition that deficits are smaller than economic growth.

The rub comes when politicians rollout budget and tax-cut plans that exaggerate the economic growth effect in order to justify their tax-cut. These are extensively lies (Paul Krugman noted the different lies) and was evident in Paul Ryan's, RYAN PLAN, that made unsubstantiated assumptions about growth and is abundant in Trump's tax-plan.

Before elections, Republicans bemoan the '$20 trillion debt' and then when they are elected propose huge tax-cuts that will extend that debt.
 
Here's some fuel to add to that fire.

It seems that (1) the deficit is only a part of the borrowing that is adding to that pile of debt, and
that the deficit is projected to go up this year, and
That is before any tax cuts, trillion dollar expenditures on infrastructure, or multi billion dollar walls:


I hadn't heard a lot about the federal deficit or the debt (yes! I know the difference! Let's not beat that dead horse again!) since the election, and got to wondering. I found this site, with a link to yet another site. Check it out.

I'm concerned about it. I've been concerned about it for years and will continue to be concerned about it. I keep having liberals tell me it doesn't matter and that it's actually good for the economy but that's just silly.
 
i doubt it. Republicans are only concerned about it when the other side is in charge, and even then, they aren't willing to give up tax cuts to help pay it down. Democrats don't seem concerned about it at all. it's like being 20, living in a party house, and wondering about who's paying the electric bill. everyone living there only cares about it in an abstract sense.

Wait a minute!

Are you saying that a political party criticizes the actions and outcomes of the other party, but then produces exactly the same actions and outcomes?

Seems like maybe you have stumbled onto something in your post.
 
Republican politicians maybe, but not republican voters. We want a balanced budget and there is a movement to call a constitutional convention to put in an amendment requiring a balanced budget. That is still going on and states are signing on fairly regularly. Twelve states have signed on. Twenty two more are needed. If it happens, there will be term limits and budget constraints.

BTW, when Obama ran against McCain I said we had a choice between going bankrupt in 5 years or 10. The problem with the Republican establishment is that they are democrats pretending to be conservative.
A balanced budget requirement for the federal government, which can create money out of thin air at near zero cost, is an unwise constraint on the government's ability to use fiscal policy to manage the economy.

We are only a few years after the biggest economic upheaval since the Great Depression. Can you imagine if we had a balanced budget amendment then? The deficit was over a trillion dollars (see below) and unemployment was over 10%. If we had such an amendment, instead of extending unemployment benefits and spending more to stimulate the economy, we would have had no choice but the cut spending severely in the middle of a huge recession. That would have been a splendid prescription to turn the Great Recession into the Great Depression Vol. II.

usgs_line.php
 
Republican politicians maybe, but not republican voters. We want a balanced budget and there is a movement to call a constitutional convention to put in an amendment requiring a balanced budget. That is still going on and states are signing on fairly regularly. Twelve states have signed on. Twenty two more are needed. If it happens, there will be term limits and budget constraints.

BTW, when Obama ran against McCain I said we had a choice between going bankrupt in 5 years or 10. The problem with the Republican establishment is that they are democrats pretending to be conservative.

neither of the Fisher Price My First Political Parties[sup]TM[/sup] cares about the debt except as a wedge issue, and almost no one would voluntarily pay more taxes to address it. the issue is going nowhere until it's an immediate crisis.
 
neither of the Fisher Price My First Political Parties[sup]TM[/sup] cares about the debt except as a wedge issue, and almost no one would voluntarily pay more taxes to address it. the issue is going nowhere until it's an immediate crisis.

A balanced budget requirement for the federal government, which can create money out of thin air at near zero cost, is an unwise constraint on the government's ability to use fiscal policy to manage the economy.

We are only a few years after the biggest economic upheaval since the Great Depression. Can you imagine if we had a balanced budget amendment then? The deficit was over a trillion dollars (see below) and unemployment was over 10%. If we had such an amendment, instead of extending unemployment benefits and spending more to stimulate the economy, we would have had no choice but the cut spending severely in the middle of a huge recession. That would have been a splendid prescription to turn the Great Recession into the Great Depression Vol. II.

usgs_line.php

First, we don't have to pay a higher rate of taxes to increase the tax revenue. Growing the economy works as well. Some of what Trump is doing will address that. The concept of incentivizing repatriation can generate short and long term revenue increases, removing the incentive (kind of part and parcel with repatriation) of moving over seas will help keep jobs and money with in our borders and simplifying the tax code will increase revenue without changing rates. All of that helps. But that won't solve the problem. Every time revenues increase, congress increases spending. Creating a constitutional requirement to restrain spending is part of the solution. Another part, and part of the call to convention, is limiting terms. If congress is limited, then the addition of riders (pork) that increase spending as a way of buying votes will not be as prevalent. We need congress to debate spending rather than making a cattle call for riders to get votes. I also think it is a good idea to set limits on "quantitative easing" as it has been termed of late. How those limits would work is a good question. We shouldn't, necessarily, return to the gold standard, but there shouldn't be a free money standard either.
 
ksu_aviator said:
First, we don't have to pay a higher rate of taxes to increase the tax revenue.
Nobody's talking about raising taxes, although a millionaires tax is a good idea. Trump is planning to lower taxes -- primarily on the rich, which the result will be ballooning the deficit and higher income income inequality.
ksu_aviator; said:
Growing the economy works as well. Some of what Trump is doing will address that.
No Trump policy so far will grow the economy. He focused on gutting the environmental, under the false premise that regulations are a drag on the economy. That's malarkey. 75% of coal jobs disappeared before the EPA was created. Trump's immigration policy is a drag on the economy.
ksu_aviator said:
The concept of incentivizing repatriation can generate short and long term revenue increases, removing the incentive (kind of part and parcel with repatriation) of moving over seas will help keep jobs and money with in our borders and simplifying the tax code will increase revenue without changing rates.
False.
Lie #5: Repatriating overseas profits will create jobs
For tax reasons, corporations hold a lot of money in overseas tax shelters. Tax cutters always claim that lower rates and/or an amnesty will bring that money home and create a lot of jobs.

So, first of all, there isn’t really a Scrooge McDuck-type pile of cash hidden overseas, ready to be put to work if the taxman will let it. Those overseas accounts are just an accounting device, which have very little real effect. Many of the companies with big overseas hoards also have plenty of idle cash at home; what’s holding them back is a lack of perceived opportunities, not cash flow. And even those who don’t have surplus cash can easily borrow at near-record low interest rates; remember, they can always use the overseas cash to secure their loans.
And we have solid empirical evidence here. In 2004 the U.S. enacted the Homeland Investment Act, which offered a tax holiday for repatriation of foreign earnings by U.S. multinationals. Careful study of its effects tells us that
Repatriations did not lead to an increase in domestic investment, employment or R&D — even for the firms that lobbied for the tax holiday stating these intentions and for firms that appeared to be financially constrained. Instead, a $1 increase in repatriations was associated with an increase of almost $1 in payouts to shareholders.
ksu_aviator said:
Every time revenues increase, congress increases spending.
I warn people that before one makes a statement about numbers, they look at the numbers.
Spending, as a p% of GDP, is relatively constant and changes mainly due to the denominator, GDP.

usgs_line.php

Creating a constitutional requirement to restrain spending is part of the solution.
I answered in post #11 why the balanced budget amendment doesn't work. I stand by that.
Another part, and part of the call to convention, is limiting terms. If congress is limited, then the addition of riders (pork) that increase spending as a way of buying votes will not be as prevalent.
We already have term limit, they're called elections.
We need congress to debate spending rather than making a cattle call for riders to get votes.
They do that every time they vote on a budget or appropriation.
I also think it is a good idea to set limits on "quantitative easing" as it has been termed of late. How those limits would work is a good question. We shouldn't, necessarily, return to the gold standard, but there shouldn't be a free money standard either.
QE, is a tool used to change money supply and is a powerful tool for monetary policy.
Going back to the gold standard is plain stupid. There is no reason why a yellow metal, whose price changes when there is a mining discovery or a change in dentistry, should be the standard of the price of currency. Besides, if the U.S. does it and no other country does, what happens then?
 
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I'm concerned about it. I've been concerned about it for years and will continue to be concerned about it. I keep having liberals tell me it doesn't matter and that it's actually good for the economy but that's just silly.

mmmm, sorry FK, liberals don't tell you it doesn't matter. We mock Cheney for saying deficits don't matter and then whipping the conservative base into a paranoid frenzy about debt and deficits. What we said was deficits were secondary to getting the economy growing again during the Great Bush Recession. FK, help me understand why you are mad at democrats for imaginary deficit hypocrisy but don't get mad at republicans for being flaming lying hypocrites concerning deficits? At some point you should clean up your own house.
 
Exactly. When the Republicans are in charge, the Democrats are concerned about spending. . When the Democrats are in charge, the Republicans are concerned about spending. Neither party is pro fiscal responsibility. Tax cuts are popular, after all, but spending cuts are not.

I don't know ditto, democrats are not overly concerned with spending. They had no problem voting for Bush's 2008 stimulus and TARP. They did that because they thought it was the best thing for the country. If they think its right, they spend. They voted for Reagan's tax cuts. But they don't vote for tax cuts that go mainly to the rich anymore because they don't do anything promised. Reagan and Bush promised to balance the budget. Reagan tripled the debt and Bush doubled it. But when President Obama was dealing with the Great Bush Recession suddenly republicans became deficit hawks. I'm just not seeing anything from democrats that comes close to the flaming lying hypocrisy of republicans concerning deficits.

How funny is that the party that doesn't run around screaming about deficits is the party that reduces the massive deficits left by republicans.
 
Here's some fuel to add to that fire.

It seems that (1) the deficit is only a part of the borrowing that is adding to that pile of debt, and
that the deficit is projected to go up this year, and
That is before any tax cuts, trillion dollar expenditures on infrastructure, or multi billion dollar walls:


I hadn't heard a lot about the federal deficit or the debt (yes! I know the difference! Let's not beat that dead horse again!) since the election, and got to wondering. I found this site, with a link to yet another site. Check it out.

concerned? yes
alarmed? no
but every citizen should be attuned to the national deficit and how it affects us

we even had a recent report commissioned to tell us what to do - Simpson-Bowles
and their conclusions (tax more/spend less) were highly regarded - from both sides of the aisle - and then promptly ignored
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Fiscal_Responsibility_and_Reform

when the economy is thriving, as it is now, there is no fiscally responsible reason why there should be a current year deficit, where we are spending more than we are taking in. we should be stashing away a federal surplus to be available when the next recession occurs - a time when fiscal stimulus would be appropriate to jump start a lagging economy

my fear is that our congressional stupidity will undermine THE economic advantage our nation holds when compared to all other nations. the ability to generate equity in the form of dollar bills desired by the international community
i doubt there is anyone on this board who would prefer to hold their liquid assets is something other than US dollar$. that is also true for the rest of the world. and as a result, for pennies, we can print a one-hundred dollar bill that adds $99 and change to our nation's perceived wealth
that unique advantage will end and the world will prefer euros or the yuan or something else down the road IF we aggregate such a large accumulated national deficit that it adversely impacts the desirability to hold one's assets in dollars
 
Nobody's talking about raising taxes, although a millionaires tax is a good idea.

Did you even read my post? Because everything you replied with was in response to an argument I did not make. Helix suggested higher taxes. I replied to him and you because some of what I said applied to both of you, so I optimized my time.

Trump is planning to lower taxes -- primarily on the rich, which the result will be ballooning the deficit and higher income income inequality.
No Trump policy so far will grow the economy. He focused on gutting the environmental, under the false premise that regulations are a drag on the economy. That's malarkey. 75% of coal jobs disappeared before the EPA was created. Trump's immigration policy is a drag on the economy.

I never said everything Trump is doing would help the economy. I said some of it would help the economy. Just because you found a couple of things you don't like (none of which actually had anything to do with the economy) doesn't mean that my statement is not accurate. I stand by my statement.


Again, you are debating an argument I didn't make. I said that repatriation would return money and generate tax revenue. I then said that eliminating tax incentives to move companies out of the country would generate jobs. Don't conflate the two.

I warn people that before one makes a statement about numbers, they look at the numbers.
Spending, as a p% of GDP, is relatively constant and changes mainly due to the denominator, GDP.

That actually proves my point. When the GDP increases (and thus tax returns), so does spending. My statement was that spending increases everytime revenue increases. You proved that point. I don't talk in percentages because we don't budget by percentages. If you want to budget by percentages, I'd be all for it. 100% of tax revenue is the budget. 30% to defense, 10% to operational, etc.

usgs_line.php

I answered in post #11 why the balanced budget amendment doesn't work. I stand by that.

You can stand by it, but your assumption that the federal government and only the federal government is responsible for social spending is beyond ludicrous. First, nothing in the constitution gives the federal government the power to make social programs. You can't find it. It isn't there. Don't even try. Second, the states are fully capable of raising revenue and creating their own social programs. The federal government being hamstrung wouldn't end the possibility of unemployment. Third, even if we accept that the federal government has the power and should create social programs, there is no reason a balanced budget would prevent emergency spending. Emergency spending would just have to come at the expense of other programs.

We already have term limit, they're called elections.

Hahaha. Rrrrriiiiiiggghhhhhtttt. That's the problem. We allow politicians to buy our votes with new roads or parks. If the politician loses the incentive of becoming reelected, they are free to constrain the budget appropriately.

They do that every time they vote on a budget or appropriation.

They really don't, that's the problem. Every budget is loaded with riders that extend spending to the constituencies of "moderate" ruling party members as a bribe for their vote. There is no debate. There is a budget (well, except for the last 10 years or so...) and a bunch of bribes. There is no debate.
QE, is a tool used to change money supply and is a powerful tool for monetary policy.
Going back to the gold standard is plain stupid. There is no reason why a yellow metal, whose price changes when there is a mining discovery or a change in dentistry, should be the standard of the price of currency. Besides, if the U.S. does it and no other country does, what happens then?

I said we should go back to gold standard, did I? Find it. Show us where I said that!
 
What is China and Russia been doing lately? Oh right. Developing a monetary system so they are not shackled by the US dollar. And backing it with... gold.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
What is China and Russia been doing lately? Oh right. Developing a monetary system so they are not shackled by the US dollar. And backing it with... gold.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Really?

I hadn't heard that.

Could be bad news for our fiat currency, no?
 
First, we don't have to pay a higher rate of taxes to increase the tax revenue. Growing the economy works as well. Some of what Trump is doing will address that. The concept of incentivizing repatriation can generate short and long term revenue increases, removing the incentive (kind of part and parcel with repatriation) of moving over seas will help keep jobs and money with in our borders and simplifying the tax code will increase revenue without changing rates. All of that helps. But that won't solve the problem. Every time revenues increase, congress increases spending. Creating a constitutional requirement to restrain spending is part of the solution. Another part, and part of the call to convention, is limiting terms. If congress is limited, then the addition of riders (pork) that increase spending as a way of buying votes will not be as prevalent. We need congress to debate spending rather than making a cattle call for riders to get votes. I also think it is a good idea to set limits on "quantitative easing" as it has been termed of late. How those limits would work is a good question. We shouldn't, necessarily, return to the gold standard, but there shouldn't be a free money standard either.

are you personally willing to pay more in taxes in order to pay down the debt?
 
are you personally willing to pay more in taxes in order to pay down the debt?

You didn't read the post did you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
mmmm, sorry FK, liberals don't tell you it doesn't matter. We mock Cheney for saying deficits don't matter and then whipping the conservative base into a paranoid frenzy about debt and deficits. What we said was deficits were secondary to getting the economy growing again during the Great Bush Recession. FK, help me understand why you are mad at democrats for imaginary deficit hypocrisy but don't get mad at republicans for being flaming lying hypocrites concerning deficits? At some point you should clean up your own house.

Most Republicans aren't conservative.
 
Hahaha. Rrrrriiiiiiggghhhhhtttt. That's the problem. We allow politicians to buy our votes with new roads or parks. If the politician loses the incentive of becoming reelected, they are free to constrain the budget appropriately.

Or ... it would allow them to spend like drunken sailors at every turn, because " ... **** it!! I'm not coming back anyhow!! Woot woot!! Spend away!!"

Lowering term limits essentially creates lame duck sessions for every election, which means either nothing gets done, or crazy **** gets done. I don't like either of those options.
 
Here's some fuel to add to that fire.

It seems that (1) the deficit is only a part of the borrowing that is adding to that pile of debt, and
that the deficit is projected to go up this year, and
That is before any tax cuts, trillion dollar expenditures on infrastructure, or multi billion dollar walls:


I hadn't heard a lot about the federal deficit or the debt (yes! I know the difference! Let's not beat that dead horse again!) since the election, and got to wondering. I found this site, with a link to yet another site. Check it out.

While democrats and republicans say different things, they do the same things when they are in power. I hope that isn't news to you.
 
Most Republicans aren't conservative.

that does not address my point or your false conservative narrative. I understand your agenda though. You don't want to hold republicans accountable for being flaming lying hypocrites where deficits are concerned. If you pretend "both sides do it" you can continue to vote republican. But FK, help me understand how you rationalize the party that constantly promises to balance the budget then doubles or triples the debt and ignore that deficits go down with democrats. Sure, democrats have no interest in balancing the budget but that's still way better than republicans' complete lack of concern for deficits when they are in power. Yes, zero concern, not a little, zero.
 
mmmm, sorry FK, liberals don't tell you it doesn't matter. We mock Cheney for saying deficits don't matter and then whipping the conservative base into a paranoid frenzy about debt and deficits. What we said was deficits were secondary to getting the economy growing again during the Great Bush Recession. FK, help me understand why you are mad at democrats for imaginary deficit hypocrisy but don't get mad at republicans for being flaming lying hypocrites concerning deficits? At some point you should clean up your own house.

The MMT believers (who are liberals) say it all the time.
 
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