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Collins, Manchin suggest they were misled by Kavanaugh and Gorsuch on Roe v. Wade

Gorsuch and these other nominees did not say that they would uphold Roe v. Wade. Not once. All they said was that Roe v. Wade was "precedent." That was an obvious fact that has no bearing on whether these judges would vote to overrule that precedent if confirmed. If you ask someone "will you murder Bob" and they respond "there is a statute banning murder" but don't deny they will murder Bob, then guess what? Bob's toast.

I don't understand how Collins can be surprised. She is either a fool (not understanding the basic logical difference difference between saying something is precedent vs. agreeing not to overrule a precedent) or a liar (knowing exactly what was going to happen and now just feigning being deceived for political reasons).
 
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It was obvious the day Kavanaugh and Gorsuch spoke about abortion the day of their confirmation hearing that they were lying.
Not sure why that is a sudden revelation to Collins, and Manchin.
 

Kavanaugh told the Senate at his 2018 confirmation hearing that the Roe decision "is important precedent of the Supreme Court that has been reaffirmed many times." Gorsuch, at his 2017 hearing, said of Roe that "a good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court."


Did they really think that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't jump at the chance to overturn Roe? :rolleyes: And why is Coney-Barrett exempt from their ire? What's the point? Are they trying to satisfy as many constituents as possible by straddling the fence?
I mean it really doesn’t matter what they thought. I don’t understand why they expected that they could have an enforceable promise to vote a certain way in a court case.
 
Gorsuch and these other nominees did not say that they would uphold Roe v. Wade. Not once. All they said was that Roe v. Wade was "precedent." That was an obvious fact that has no bearing on whether these judges would vote to overrule that precedent if confirmed. If you ask someone "will you murder Bob" and they respond "there is a statute banning murder" but don't deny they will murder Bob, then guess what? Bob's toast.

I don't understand how Collins can be surprised. She is either a fool (not understanding the basic logical difference difference between saying something is precedent vs. agreeing not to overrule a precedent) or a liar (knowing exactly what was going to happen and now just feigning being deceived for political reasons).
Very well put. Been saying the exact same thing.

Even a liberal could understand it, maybe.
 
What is "settled law"? Because, as far as I know, there is no case that can't be overturned.
The ones you should be asking are sitting on the Supreme Court. They were willing to deceive the judiciary panel into believing the overturning of RvW was not their intention, just so their nominations would be confirmed. About as cowardly a thing to do as anything the budding crypto-theocrats have done.

As we can tell by Clarence Thomas's comments, they won't be happy until they turn the USA into their idea of a "christian" Iran!
 
They were willing to deceive the judiciary panel into believing the overturning of RvW was not their intention, just so their nominations would be confirmed. About as cowardly a thing to do as anything the budding crypto-theocrats have done.
How would they even know what cases would come before them?
 
How would they even know what cases would come before them?
?? Look at the record. They don't need to. Various state abortion laws have come up repeatedly ever since RvW was adjudicated. Over the past 5 decades, few things were more certain, more predictable, than yet another challenge to abortion rights finding its way up the ladder to the SCOTUS. It was a sure thing, and those justices occupy the bench for life!
 
How would they even know what cases would come before them?
LOL, are you serious? Do you really think Kavanaugh was so stupid, so ill-informed and so cavalier about his appointment that he hadn't reviewed Roe before his hearings?
 

Kavanaugh told the Senate at his 2018 confirmation hearing that the Roe decision "is important precedent of the Supreme Court that has been reaffirmed many times." Gorsuch, at his 2017 hearing, said of Roe that "a good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court."


Did they really think that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't jump at the chance to overturn Roe? :rolleyes: And why is Coney-Barrett exempt from their ire? What's the point? Are they trying to satisfy as many constituents as possible by straddling the fence?
Roe v Wade was an important precedent, and the reasoning of Roe v Wade had already been overturned by Planned Parenthood v Casey. So.... yes, you know, lots of cases are "important precedent" which were overturned.

And, when a good judge considers a case as precedent, that's not the end of the analysis and never has been.

If the judges meant to say "I would not overrule under any circumstances," then they would say so. The statements you just posted clearly are, literally, that the judge would properly consider them as important precedent in analyzing any case.

U.S. Supreme Court in Seminole Tribe v Florida explained that the rule regarding following precedent is not an “inexorable command.” When prior decisions are “unworkable or are badly reasoned,” then the Supreme Court may not follow precedent, and this is “particularly true in constitutional cases.” For example, in deciding Brown v Board of Education, the U.S. Supreme Court explicitly renounced Plessy v Ferguson thereby refusing to apply clear past precedent.

So, the reality is that this "Kavanaugh and Gorsuch lied" bit is complete and utter bullshit. They didn't lie. They said exactly the legal standard used for Supreme Court precedent and everyone knows it. Everyone knows that precedents are guides for the Supreme Court. They are important, and they are generally to be followed, but the Court's hands are not tied behind its back, required to always follow precedent no matter what. And that has always been the case, Democrats know it, and Democrats are AGAIN lying about what people say in order to control a propaganda narrative.

Don't let them fool you. This is like their bullshit that "Trump said Nazis are very fine people!!!" - he never did, and that has been proven incontrovertably. He's on video and the text of is speech is there for all to see, but Democrats lie all the time about it. Same here - Gorsuch and Kavanaugh simply did not say what Democrats are trying to convince the country they said. And, the Democrats will shamelessly do it even though the transcripts are there, and even though the statements like the ones above clearly do NOT say what the Democrats want us to think they say. Master gaslighters and hoodwinkers.
 
LOL, are you serious? Do you really think Kavanaugh was so stupid, so ill-informed and so cavalier about his appointment that he hadn't reviewed Roe before his hearings?
He would have studied Roe and Planned Parenthood v Casey in law school. They are, as he said, "important precedent," as is true of every precedent which the SCOTUS has overturned whenever it has overturned precedent. Saying "it's important precedent," is not saying it can't or won't be overruled. I mean, when Brown v Board of Education was decided, it absolutely was the case that "Plessy v Ferguson" was the most important precedent in the area of education law and equal protection law. It was literally one of the most important SCOTUS precedents in place at the time. Yet, it was overruled. Do you think Thurgood Marshall would have said Plessy was not important precedent? In fact, unimportant precedent is rarely overruled because if it's not important, then hardly anyone cares about it. Important precedent is precedent that significantly effects the law and therefore many people are interested in it.
 
?? Did the Justices who voted in favor of segregation LIE about their inclinations during their nomination hearings?
Where did Kavanaugh and Gorsuch lie?

Are you under the impression that ovrruling Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey means the Justices who joined the majority opinion didn't think it was important precedent? You think that when someone thinks precedent is important, that means they are telling you they won't overrule it? Why in the world would you think that?
 
?? Look at the record. They don't need to. Various state abortion laws have come up repeatedly ever since RvW was adjudicated. Over the past 5 decades, few things were more certain, more predictable, than yet another challenge to abortion rights finding its way up the ladder to the SCOTUS. It was a sure thing, and those justices occupy the bench for life!
Yes that is true, but each case is unique. I mean seriously, would you want a prospective justice to declare how they would rule on a case? It makes no sense.
 
He would have studied Roe and Planned Parenthood v Casey in law school. They are, as he said, "important precedent," as is true of every precedent which the SCOTUS has overturned whenever it has overturned precedent. Saying "it's important precedent," is not saying it can't or won't be overruled. I mean, when Brown v Board of Education was decided, it absolutely was the case that "Plessy v Ferguson" was the most important precedent in the area of education law and equal protection law. It was literally one of the most important SCOTUS precedents in place at the time. Yet, it was overruled. Do you think Thurgood Marshall would have said Plessy was not important precedent? In fact, unimportant precedent is rarely overruled because if it's not important, then hardly anyone cares about it. Important precedent is precedent that significantly effects the law and therefore many people are interested in it.
Why would you reply to my comment to another person but ignore the content of the posts?
 
That is every branch of the government that lies to get into office, lies about what they're going to do in office, and lies about the obligations and limitations of their offices.

We cannot count on any branch or any level of our government to protect our rights or protect our welfare. We cannot count on any of our political parties to do so.

The social contract is broken and our government is illegitimate.
What, exactly, was the lie here? I mean, overruling a case doesn't mean the case wasn't important precedent, does it?
 

Kavanaugh told the Senate at his 2018 confirmation hearing that the Roe decision "is important precedent of the Supreme Court that has been reaffirmed many times." Gorsuch, at his 2017 hearing, said of Roe that "a good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court."


Did they really think that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't jump at the chance to overturn Roe? :rolleyes: And why is Coney-Barrett exempt from their ire? What's the point? Are they trying to satisfy as many constituents as possible by straddling the fence?

Well, they are pretty dumb. Neither Justice stated they would uphold Roe.
 
Why would you reply to my comment to another person but ignore the content of the posts?
Your question was "Do you really think Kavanaugh was so stupid, so ill-informed and so cavalier about his appointment that he hadn't reviewed Roe before his hearings?" My answer was, of course he had reviewed Roe before his hearings. He likely studied it very hard for a long time, particularly in law school. If that's ignoring your content, then sorry.
 
Anyone who was misled by these justices wanted to be misled or is exceptionally dull. I'm guessing that it's the former.
Nobody was misled. This is a propaganda narrative. By pointing this finger at Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, the Senators get political gain from lining up their base behind them. They're creating the enemy they can point at and say - Yeah! It's those Justices who lied and fooled us! They said they'd never overrule Roe and Casey! They hoodwinked us! That way, they don't have to answer for why they don't already have a bill before Congress to make legalized abortion available federally. They can introduce a bill under the Commerce Clause which says that no state will eliminate abortion in the first X weeks of pregnancy, for example, and that all restrictions must otherwise take into account the life and health of the mother, etc. But, they interestingly aren't doing that. Can anyone guess why?
 
the right wing TOP JUDGES in our country are massive liars.

does that surprise anyone?
Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, and the rest of the leading Democrats are massive liars. Does that surprise anyone?
 
Everyone knew they were lying. They're still lying.
 
Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, and the rest of the leading Democrats are massive liars. Does that surprise anyone?

Thank you for pointing out that these justices are nothing more than political hacks.
 
They weren't dumb; they knew. We're talking about Senators who've been in office for decades. They're not naive, not the kind of people who get misled. Their careers depend on them being able to read people and knowing the difference between shit and sugar. These justices were part of the Federalist all-star team. They were picked for a reason, and there's no way they didn't know this would be the outcome.
More importantly, neither justice stated or implied that they would not overrule Roe or Casey, or that either of those cases were immune from the same rules of stare decisis that apply to all other cases, which are that bad precedent, ESPECIALLY IN CONSTITUTIONAL CASES, per Seminole Tribe of Florida v State of Florida, can be overruled. The "importance" of precedent is not the same thing as it being not subject to being overruled. Dred Scott v Sanford, probably the worst/saddest most horrible Supreme Court decision ever certainly is "important" Supreme Court precedent.
 
Your question was "Do you really think Kavanaugh was so stupid, so ill-informed and so cavalier about his appointment that he hadn't reviewed Roe before his hearings?" My answer was, of course he had reviewed Roe before his hearings. He likely studied it very hard for a long time, particularly in law school. If that's ignoring your content, then sorry.
Again, the question was not directed to you. I was replying to this comment. You are, of course, free to jump into a conversation and state the obvious.

How would they even know what cases would come before them?

LOL, are you serious? Do you really think Kavanaugh was so stupid, so ill-informed and so cavalier about his appointment that he hadn't reviewed Roe before his hearings?
 

Kavanaugh told the Senate at his 2018 confirmation hearing that the Roe decision "is important precedent of the Supreme Court that has been reaffirmed many times." Gorsuch, at his 2017 hearing, said of Roe that "a good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court."


Did they really think that Kavanaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't jump at the chance to overturn Roe? :rolleyes: And why is Coney-Barrett exempt from their ire? What's the point? Are they trying to satisfy as many constituents as possible by straddling the fence?

Yeah right. They got angry fan mail
 
Yes that is true, but each case is unique. I mean seriously, would you want a prospective justice to declare how they would rule on a case?
No. I'd be content with a prospective justice to be willing to candidly, honestly, offer their views on whether RvW was properly adjudicated. They wouldn't have to "declare how they would rule on a case" - I'd settle for a simple declaration of "the Roe decision was a wrong one, and should be overturned at the earliest opportunity". At least that would have been honest.
 
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