Classroom “Nazi Salute” controversy at Mountain Brook High School

[snakestretcher]

Question, isn't that YOUR issue though? In all seriousness, YOU are the one allowing the Nazi's to "own it"

If something is done for 1000 years one way...and some absolute idiot comes along, and does that same thing, and commits atrocities, does that mean the group of people who have done it this way for 1000 years HAS to stop?

Doesn't matter. It's wrong, irresponsible, insulting and culturally obnoxious to any normal, decent person who understands the association.

 

[sjmay]

Doesn't matter. It's wrong, irresponsible, insulting and culturally obnoxious to any normal, decent person who understands the association.

But shouldn't it matter? I'm not trying to speak on specifics, but generalities,

If something is done for hundreds of years, and is normally accepted as fine....does ONE group distorting the action, symbol etc, automatically make that one thing, evil incarnate, unacceptable etc?

This is probably part of the lesson on how symbols change throughout years etc, but I was never really big on symbols, symbology, etc, which is why I am asking.

 

[Ikari]

I see the salute. I don't get why it's "damning." The school openly admits that this lesson is in the curriculum, and to talk about the bellamy salute one would think that the students have to see it - either by someone doing it, or by showing images of people doing it. And, I think the delicate flowers can withstand seeing the image. It's all over the History Channel and other such channels that have World War 2 documentaries all the time, and I've seen documentaries about the pledge of allegiance in the US and how the salute was used until the 1940s, and they show it. We can't and shouldn't sanitize the world.

So you're cool with teaching CRT in schools then?

 

[snakestretcher]

But shouldn't it matter? I'm not trying to speak on specifics, but generalities,

If something is done for hundreds of years, and is normally accepted as fine....does ONE group distorting the action, symbol etc, automatically make that one thing, evil incarnate, unacceptable etc?

This is probably part of the lesson on how symbols change throughout years etc, but I was never really big on symbols, symbology, etc, which is why I am asking.

In the same way that the Confederate flag is culturally associated with human rights abuses and deemed unacceptable to the majority? Some apologists will argue that the swastika symbol appropriated by the Nazis from Sanskrit mythology is still symbolic of 'well-being', and we got it wrong about Hitler...

 

[sjmay]

In the same way that the Confederate flag is culturally associated with human rights abuses and deemed unacceptable to the majority? Some apologists will argue that the swastika symbol appropriated by the Nazis from Sanskrit mythology is still symbolic of 'well-being', and we got it wrong about Hitler...

Maybe I'm not explaining my thought process....or maybe you are being obtuse...or both, I'm saying we....societally....should not let idiotic/evil/ shit disturbers, take over what was once.....benign symbols......

 

[RAMOSS]

Question, isn't that YOUR issue though? In all seriousness, YOU are the one allowing the Nazi's to "own it"

If something is done for 1000 years one way...and some absolute idiot comes along, and does that same thing, and commits atrocities, does that mean the group of people who have done it this way for 1000 years HAS to stop?

Yes. Yes it does. As long as you got neo-nazi's who use it, and support genocide. Until the neo-nazi's that use it and target Jews and Blacks, Roma and Asians, then yes.

 

[sjmay]

Yes. Yes it does. As long as you got neo-nazi's who use it, and support genocide. Until the neo-nazi's that use it and target Jews and Blacks, Roma and Asians, then yes.

So essentially, you believe one person/one group, should have the ability to dictate to everyone else, what is acceptable and not? Interesting.

 

[RAMOSS]

So essentially, you believe one person/one group, should have the ability to dictate to everyone else, what is acceptable and not? Interesting.

Yep.. when it comes to people who use that to try to kill me as an identifier, yes.

 

[sjmay]

Yep.. when it comes to people who use that to try to kill me as an identifier, yes.

Interesting.....not that I really care about symbols, like I said, I just find it strange how you would allow one person to dictate to you, what is acceptable or not, I do not understand that mind frame.

 

[RAMOSS]

Interesting.....not that I really care about symbols, like I said, I just find it strange how you would allow one person to dictate to you, what is acceptable or not, I do not understand that mind frame.

That is a very irratoinal spin you are putting on things.

 

[sjmay]

That is a very irratoinal spin you are putting on things.

How do you figure? By not allowing ****ing morons to dictate what is acceptable or not?

I mean, literally...by your logic, the Beatles and the Beach boys should be censured and banned from everywhere, because you can make an association with Charles Manson.....

Clearly not on the same level as Hitler, Stalin, etc, but nevertheless, I still maintain that society as a whole, should not be accommodating to those idiots to begin with, and giving in to their symbolism, is absolutely part of it.

 

[RAMOSS]

How do you figure? By not allowing ****ing morons to dictate what is acceptable or not?

I mean, literally...by your logic, the Beatles and the Beach boys should be censured and banned from everywhere, because you can make an association with Charles Manson.....

Clearly not on the same level as Hitler, Stalin, etc, but nevertheless, I still maintain that society as a whole, should not be accommodating to those idiots to begin with, and giving in to their symbolism, is absolutely part of it.

How many of your family were murdered in the concentration camps?

 

[justabubba]

That is a very irratoinal spin you are putting on things.

i find it a very rational spin on the concept of cultural appropriation
where a long established tradition/image is mimicked, but is then used as a cultural identifier in a different manner than was the original
in effect counterfeiting that image which had a long-standing but very different meaning

for example, the swastika
for thousands of years it was recognized as a symbol of well being/good fortune in the near east. the rest of the world adopted its imagry, as is revealed on this US Army airplane:


the problem begins once that formerly positive image becomes inbued with a negative connotation

How the world loved the swastika - until Hitler stole it

In the Western world the swastika is synonymous with fascism, but historically it was used as a symbol of good fortune in almost every culture in the world.

www.bbc.com

 

[sjmay]

How many of your family were murdered in the concentration camps?

No idea, but you say that like it would change my mind.....why?

 

[prometeus]

How do you figure? By not allowing ****ing morons to dictate what is acceptable or not?

No, by not imitating what is known to be bad.

I mean, literally...by your logic, the Beatles and the Beach boys should be censured and banned from everywhere, because you can make an association with Charles Manson....

That is a stupid reasoning. Was that before or after the murders?

 

[sjmay]

No, by not imitating what is known to be bad.

That is a stupid reasoning. Was that before or after the murders?

Before....

Wait for it...just like BEFORE Hitler....the Swatiska was a good symbol of well-being and love.....

 

[prometeus]

Before....

Wait for it...just like BEFORE Hitler....the Swatiska was a good symbol of well-being and love.....

More stupid reasoning. Once the "bad" was established only morons and neo-nazis keep suning the symbol.

 

[sjmay]

More stupid reasoning. Once the "bad" was established only morons and neo-nazis keep suning the symbol.

Which again, is letting morons.....dictate to you, what is good or bad.....why would you let anyone do that?

 

[dcsports]

If all of that is factual then there should be some (figurative) heads rolling at that school!

For one thing it is absolutely wrong to try and force students to participate in the so called pledge of allegiance and two it is so very, very wrong to try to force or coerce via intimidation, anyone, especially students, to give the flag a salute or state a false allegiance via oath!

Enough already! Stick to banning books fer criminy sake!

I would definitely recommend people read the OP.

The lesson was about symbols and how they change, with the Bellamy salute as an example. Students weren't forced to do it - the one that's the subject said that he and several other student's didn't participate, and weren't disciplined. Several are even in the picture standing with their hands in their pockets. The school confirmed that the salute was a part of the planned lesson, and their feedback to the teacher was that it wasn't necessary to model the salute when a picture could have conveyed the point.

IMHO, the teacher was trying to be creative, and it wasn't a bad way to show the lesson. They probably could have gone another step though and talked about why it made some students uncomfortable.

The student could have - and if he felt it was a problem, should have - taken his concerns to school administration. There's no indication that this would have been a problem.

What the student got in trouble for was posting a picture and video of the class on social media and telling people the school was forcing students to do the Nazi salute. That was the wrong thing to do, and the student should be in trouble for this.

 

[dcsports]

Is that standard practise in the US?

It used to be, until 1942.

 

[Rumpel]

What the student got in trouble for was posting a picture and video of the class on social media and telling people the school was forcing students to do the Nazi salute. That was the wrong thing to do, and the student should be in trouble for this.

That really was a wrong thing to do.

 

[justabubba]

That really was a wrong thing to do.

IF
the student's account is accurate
then, yes it was

 

[dcsports]

IF
the student's account is accurate
then, yes it was

Regardless, it was the wrong thing to do. If a student or parent has concerns, the first stop toward a productive solution should be the school administration.

 

[prometeus]

Which again, is letting morons.....dictate to you, what is good or bad.....why would you let anyone do that?

Nobody is dictating anything, but it certainly brings into question the intellect and integrity of someone who purposely uses or defends the use of a symbol that everyone associates with something bad.

 

[sjmay]

Nobody is dictating anything, but it certainly brings into question the intellect and integrity of someone who purposely uses or defends the use of a symbol that everyone associates with something bad.

Of course they are......you are letting evil people, dictate the meaning of a symbol that had always been previously deemed as a well-being, symbol of love, you are letting them dictate to you that now, that symbol is BAD and EVIL....

If you can't see that, you have more problems than anyone thought.