Civilized war or WAR?

Jack Hays · May 16, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
Lets go to a galaxy far far away....Yeah, geeky and cheesy I know but hey, its going to get cheesier. :shrug: :mrgreen:

In this galaxy you have two factions that are warring against each other. The Light side and the Dark side. But don't let the names fool you. On both sides there are normal, every day people that essentially believe the exact same things and believe in doing what is Right and True. Neither side is religious. Both sides have equal rights for everyone. There is no racial discrimination. The only reason for the war is resources. Lets say....water. That particular galaxy is low on water. Which they of course need to survive. In between these two factions territories is a band of worlds that is chalk full of fresh water. Both sides have mutually agreed, before the war started, to not even come with in 50 light years of those planets until there is a victor in their war to see who gets the water. (for those that love semantics, they travel to different planets via directed wormhole technology which gets them from point A to point B of their choosing in a matter of seconds..but it only works inside their galaxy due to a highly radiation and magnetic bubble that wraps their entire galaxy and collapses worm holes that attempt to go beyond it)

If you were in charge of one of these factions how would you conduct your war?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible?

or

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way?

Remember, the survival of your faction means winning the war in order to get that precious water. If you lose, your faction gets none of that water. The poll choices are your only options. There is no middle ground. No haggling. No diplomacy available as both factions refuse to come to the negotiation table, or even talk to each other for that matter as the war has started. In fact any attempt to contact or talk to the other side will get you summarily executed right on the spot. Cameras which you have no control over and cannot destroy as it would mean instant death for you are always on you...even in the bathroom, no privacy what so ever. You agreed to it when you became the leader as you want your people to trust you. Only a select group of people are able to watch and see what is going on via those cameras. People you will never have contact with as you know not who they are or how to get ahold of them. This is of course to preserve military tactics. IE: cameras are not broadcast to the public, only those select people. You also have no idea where the leader of the other faction is, just like they have no idea where you are at. You are both as secure as secure can be from any type of spying.

Hopefully I've covered all the bases here. What is your choice?

You do whatever is necessary to win. This might include sparing innocent civilians. Or it might not.

LaylaWindu · May 16, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
Lets go to a galaxy far far away....Yeah, geeky and cheesy I know but hey, its going to get cheesier. :shrug: :mrgreen:

In this galaxy you have two factions that are warring against each other. The Light side and the Dark side. But don't let the names fool you. On both sides there are normal, every day people that essentially believe the exact same things and believe in doing what is Right and True. Neither side is religious. Both sides have equal rights for everyone. There is no racial discrimination. The only reason for the war is resources. Lets say....water. That particular galaxy is low on water. Which they of course need to survive. In between these two factions territories is a band of worlds that is chalk full of fresh water. Both sides have mutually agreed, before the war started, to not even come with in 50 light years of those planets until there is a victor in their war to see who gets the water. (for those that love semantics, they travel to different planets via directed wormhole technology which gets them from point A to point B of their choosing in a matter of seconds..but it only works inside their galaxy due to a highly radiation and magnetic bubble that wraps their entire galaxy and collapses worm holes that attempt to go beyond it)

If you were in charge of one of these factions how would you conduct your war?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible?

or

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way?

Remember, the survival of your faction means winning the war in order to get that precious water. If you lose, your faction gets none of that water. The poll choices are your only options. There is no middle ground. No haggling. No diplomacy available as both factions refuse to come to the negotiation table, or even talk to each other for that matter as the war has started. In fact any attempt to contact or talk to the other side will get you summarily executed right on the spot. Cameras which you have no control over and cannot destroy as it would mean instant death for you are always on you...even in the bathroom, no privacy what so ever. You agreed to it when you became the leader as you want your people to trust you. Only a select group of people are able to watch and see what is going on via those cameras. People you will never have contact with as you know not who they are or how to get ahold of them. This is of course to preserve military tactics. IE: cameras are not broadcast to the public, only those select people. You also have no idea where the leader of the other faction is, just like they have no idea where you are at. You are both as secure as secure can be from any type of spying.

Hopefully I've covered all the bases here. What is your choice?

IMO there is no such thing as civilized war.
You go to war or you don't.

If you want cheese lets go with Mr Miyagi!

"Walk on road, Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later (squish) like grape "

War is like that and like karate

"Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so," (squish) just like grape

fight or no fight, fight a little bit and SQUISH IMO

Kal'Stang · May 16, 2015

Phys251 said:
Why is war the only option here? What about diplomacy? Even your OP suggests that antebellum diplomacy has occurred, so why not extend it to the next logical step and avoid mass killings?

The diplomacy that happened was just enough to make sure that what they were fighting over didn't get ruined. Beyond that its simply about survival. There simply isn't enough water for both sides to survive. Neither side was willing to do it any other way.

Phys251 said:
Also, you said there are multiple planets with water. Would the war occur between the two water-poor factions, or the water-poor factions vs. the civilizations with water?

Between the two water poor factions. There is no civilization (or any other civilization/faction in the entire galaxy for that matter) on the water planets.

Not directed at you Phys251: You know, just once I'd like to have a conversation or see a conversation where someone puts up a scenario and people actually stick to that scenario instead of arguing and saying "But but but!" and ignoring the restrictions put with in that scenario.

Kal'Stang · May 16, 2015

LaylaWindu said:
IMO there is no such thing as civilized war.
You go to war or you don't.

If you want cheese lets go with Mr Miyagi!

"Walk on road, Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later (squish) like grape "

War is like that and like karate

"Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so," (squish) just like grape

fight or no fight, fight a little bit and SQUISH IMO

lol Always did like Pat Morita.

Phys251 · May 16, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
The diplomacy that happened was just enough to make sure that what they were fighting over didn't get ruined. Beyond that its simply about survival. There simply isn't enough water for both sides to survive. Neither side was willing to do it any other way.

Then, to paraphrase old westerns, that galaxy ain't big enough for the two of them.

Look, they are struggling together, so they should solve the problem together. Fighting is not going to get the job done. Period. War always leaves behind a trail of blood and tears. One side is going to be subjugated to a living hell for a long time to come or exterminated. The other side will have a huge mess to clean up.

Between the two water poor factions. There is no civilization (or any other civilization/faction in the entire galaxy for that matter) on the water planets.

Not directed at you Phys251: You know, just once I'd like to have a conversation or see a conversation where someone puts up a scenario and people actually stick to that scenario instead of arguing and saying "But but but!" and ignoring the restrictions put with in that scenario.

The problem is, though, that the issues I raised are inevitably going to come up. If you and I hypothetically were to agree to have a fight to the death, then no matter how many rules and stipulations we were to make before hand, we'd be reduced to barbarism very, very quickly. War always brings out the worst in humans.

polgara · May 16, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
Lets go to a galaxy far far away....Yeah, geeky and cheesy I know but hey, its going to get cheesier. :shrug: :mrgreen:

In this galaxy you have two factions that are warring against each other. The Light side and the Dark side. But don't let the names fool you. On both sides there are normal, every day people that essentially believe the exact same things and believe in doing what is Right and True. Neither side is religious. Both sides have equal rights for everyone. There is no racial discrimination. The only reason for the war is resources. Lets say....water. That particular galaxy is low on water. Which they of course need to survive. In between these two factions territories is a band of worlds that is chalk full of fresh water. Both sides have mutually agreed, before the war started, to not even come with in 50 light years of those planets until there is a victor in their war to see who gets the water. (for those that love semantics, they travel to different planets via directed wormhole technology which gets them from point A to point B of their choosing in a matter of seconds..but it only works inside their galaxy due to a highly radiation and magnetic bubble that wraps their entire galaxy and collapses worm holes that attempt to go beyond it)

If you were in charge of one of these factions how would you conduct your war?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible?

or

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way?

Remember, the survival of your faction means winning the war in order to get that precious water. If you lose, your faction gets none of that water. The poll choices are your only options. There is no middle ground. No haggling. No diplomacy available as both factions refuse to come to the negotiation table, or even talk to each other for that matter as the war has started. In fact any attempt to contact or talk to the other side will get you summarily executed right on the spot. Cameras which you have no control over and cannot destroy as it would mean instant death for you are always on you...even in the bathroom, no privacy what so ever. You agreed to it when you became the leader as you want your people to trust you. Only a select group of people are able to watch and see what is going on via those cameras. People you will never have contact with as you know not who they are or how to get ahold of them. This is of course to preserve military tactics. IE: cameras are not broadcast to the public, only those select people. You also have no idea where the leader of the other faction is, just like they have no idea where you are at. You are both as secure as secure can be from any type of spying.

Hopefully I've covered all the bases here. What is your choice?

Greetings, Kal'Stang. :2wave:

In your example, I would have to say you must go to win, since you need the water to survive, which implies that there would be resistance from the beings currently living there. It appears that you would either have to exterminate or enslave those who would resist, or make some kind of agreement with them that you would not take every drop of their water all at one time, which would doom their planet.

However, using earth as an example, our planet is 70% covered by water, but only one percent is drinkable. You used the term "fresh water" in your post, but would the leaders viewing the cameras know if the water on another planet might be poisonous, or otherwise unfit to drink before the war started to get that water? It would be poor planning to go to war over a resource that proved worthless to the invaders.

Off topic, but how is Ce'Nedra faring these days?

LadyMoonlight · May 16, 2015

Total, all out war. Survival of the strongest and fittest.

Goshin · May 16, 2015

A lot of times war can be averted through diplomacy and compromise.

However when you have two or more factions who have each determined they MUST have X, and X being mutually exclusive, then war becomes inevitable.

A legitimate conflict of interests, that cannot be resolved peaceably, can occur between even the most civilized and peace-loving societies, if they both lack something they consider essential for survival and there isn't enough to go around. In such case diplomacy is merely a delaying tactic.

blackjack50 · May 16, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
Lets go to a galaxy far far away....Yeah, geeky and cheesy I know but hey, its going to get cheesier. :shrug: :mrgreen:

In this galaxy you have two factions that are warring against each other. The Light side and the Dark side. But don't let the names fool you. On both sides there are normal, every day people that essentially believe the exact same things and believe in doing what is Right and True. Neither side is religious. Both sides have equal rights for everyone. There is no racial discrimination. The only reason for the war is resources. Lets say....water. That particular galaxy is low on water. Which they of course need to survive. In between these two factions territories is a band of worlds that is chalk full of fresh water. Both sides have mutually agreed, before the war started, to not even come with in 50 light years of those planets until there is a victor in their war to see who gets the water. (for those that love semantics, they travel to different planets via directed wormhole technology which gets them from point A to point B of their choosing in a matter of seconds..but it only works inside their galaxy due to a highly radiation and magnetic bubble that wraps their entire galaxy and collapses worm holes that attempt to go beyond it)

If you were in charge of one of these factions how would you conduct your war?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible?

or

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way?

Remember, the survival of your faction means winning the war in order to get that precious water. If you lose, your faction gets none of that water. The poll choices are your only options. There is no middle ground. No haggling. No diplomacy available as both factions refuse to come to the negotiation table, or even talk to each other for that matter as the war has started. In fact any attempt to contact or talk to the other side will get you summarily executed right on the spot. Cameras which you have no control over and cannot destroy as it would mean instant death for you are always on you...even in the bathroom, no privacy what so ever. You agreed to it when you became the leader as you want your people to trust you. Only a select group of people are able to watch and see what is going on via those cameras. People you will never have contact with as you know not who they are or how to get ahold of them. This is of course to preserve military tactics. IE: cameras are not broadcast to the public, only those select people. You also have no idea where the leader of the other faction is, just like they have no idea where you are at. You are both as secure as secure can be from any type of spying.

Hopefully I've covered all the bases here. What is your choice?

The term you are looking for is total war. Total war is not a good idea. There is no such thing as civilized war. But Objective based warfare is. The opposite. That is one of the worst faults of the First World War. The leaders of the allies didn't really understand their objective. Even in the second when we did...We didn't have the technology to do so.

If you eliminate the ability to fight you win. That means production, transportation, leadership, and intelligence. All that needs to be killed or destroyed. Some of that can be defeated within too. Vietnam is an example. Or our modern 2nd gulf war. Defeat the public and you win. You beat them by defeating the nation on the battlefield and sapping their morale. But you will only cause resolve by killing them at home.

Chagos · May 16, 2015

Civilized war is a moronic term. Oxy-moronic actually.

I'll wait for a poll that gives the third option of "civil" war. That's always fun.:mrgreen:

Ahlevah · May 16, 2015

I voted "war" in which you "exterminate anything that gets in your way." That doesn't mean you target civilians unnecessarily, but if your enemy doesn't give a damn about conducting operations among civilians or uses them in their war-making efforts then they become a target. You should never tie one hand behind your back unless you're willing to lose.

Serenity · May 17, 2015

Just to clarify we're talking about deliberately targeting civilians here as one of the options right?

It's not ok when IS deliberately target civilians. It's not ok when the Palestinian factions deliberately target civilians. It's not ok when Boko Haram and Al-Qaeda deliberately target civilians.

I'm not a savage and my views are consistent. Deliberately targeting civilians is never ok so it should come as no surprise that my thoughts are a Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible.

sawdust · May 17, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
Lets go to a galaxy far far away....Yeah, geeky and cheesy I know but hey, its going to get cheesier. :shrug: :mrgreen:

In this galaxy you have two factions that are warring against each other. The Light side and the Dark side. But don't let the names fool you. On both sides there are normal, every day people that essentially believe the exact same things and believe in doing what is Right and True. Neither side is religious. Both sides have equal rights for everyone. There is no racial discrimination. The only reason for the war is resources. Lets say....water. That particular galaxy is low on water. Which they of course need to survive. In between these two factions territories is a band of worlds that is chalk full of fresh water. Both sides have mutually agreed, before the war started, to not even come with in 50 light years of those planets until there is a victor in their war to see who gets the water. (for those that love semantics, they travel to different planets via directed wormhole technology which gets them from point A to point B of their choosing in a matter of seconds..but it only works inside their galaxy due to a highly radiation and magnetic bubble that wraps their entire galaxy and collapses worm holes that attempt to go beyond it)

If you were in charge of one of these factions how would you conduct your war?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible?

or

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way?

Remember, the survival of your faction means winning the war in order to get that precious water. If you lose, your faction gets none of that water. The poll choices are your only options. There is no middle ground. No haggling. No diplomacy available as both factions refuse to come to the negotiation table, or even talk to each other for that matter as the war has started. In fact any attempt to contact or talk to the other side will get you summarily executed right on the spot. Cameras which you have no control over and cannot destroy as it would mean instant death for you are always on you...even in the bathroom, no privacy what so ever. You agreed to it when you became the leader as you want your people to trust you. Only a select group of people are able to watch and see what is going on via those cameras. People you will never have contact with as you know not who they are or how to get ahold of them. This is of course to preserve military tactics. IE: cameras are not broadcast to the public, only those select people. You also have no idea where the leader of the other faction is, just like they have no idea where you are at. You are both as secure as secure can be from any type of spying.

Hopefully I've covered all the bases here. What is your choice?

The war against Japan ended with the nuclear option. We are now allies. War ends when one side decides that continuing it has terrible consequences.

DA60 · May 17, 2015

I would spare the civilians and if that means my 'side' loses - so be it.

'It's better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool'.

Only cowards and/or idiots believe the ends justify the means.

earthworm · May 17, 2015

War is NOT a "sport", its cruel, vicious , if one wishes to win .. anything goes .. including what the Japanese, the Germans, ISIS , the English, and we have done .. horrible ? true .. civilized war .. an oxymoron if ever there was one . . So many reasons to respect and tolerate , talk and negotiate, rather than fight .

Apocalypse · May 17, 2015

The situation you're describing is akin to two tribes living in a territory with enough fresh water for only one of them.
The options are clear. Either one tribe dies or the other one dies.

The other side will die together with all of its civilians regardless of whether you'll target them or not as long as you do not die, because this would mean they have no fresh water, so it seems pointless to avoid it.

I would however avoid targeting civilians since the side that lives on needs to live with its actions after all is done and settled, and I see no advantage at all to be gained from targeting the civilian population of the other side. The war will be settled by the last soldier standing not by the last innocent baby or innocent old man standing.

Montecresto · May 17, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
So if someone invades the US do you think that diplomacy will get all the bad guys out? Sometimes you just have to fight. Whether you like it or not.

Sometimes.

US Conservative · May 21, 2015

Montecresto said:
Sometimes.

:doh .

Athrawan · Jun 9, 2015

I believe that the term "civilized war" is an oxymoron. Sherman proved that total war succeeds. Vietnam proved that anything less is a mistake.

gdgyva · Jun 9, 2015

if there is no other alternative other than war, then the gloves come off

the idea is to WIN

there is no prize given for being the nice winner

use every advantage you can use

sometimes wars on won by decimating the psyche of the enemy.....

no mercy can or should be shown

radcen · Jun 9, 2015

Kal'Stang said:
Lets go to a galaxy far far away....Yeah, geeky and cheesy I know but hey, its going to get cheesier. :shrug: :mrgreen:

In this galaxy you have two factions that are warring against each other. The Light side and the Dark side. But don't let the names fool you. On both sides there are normal, every day people that essentially believe the exact same things and believe in doing what is Right and True. Neither side is religious. Both sides have equal rights for everyone. There is no racial discrimination. The only reason for the war is resources. Lets say....water. That particular galaxy is low on water. Which they of course need to survive. In between these two factions territories is a band of worlds that is chalk full of fresh water. Both sides have mutually agreed, before the war started, to not even come with in 50 light years of those planets until there is a victor in their war to see who gets the water. (for those that love semantics, they travel to different planets via directed wormhole technology which gets them from point A to point B of their choosing in a matter of seconds..but it only works inside their galaxy due to a highly radiation and magnetic bubble that wraps their entire galaxy and collapses worm holes that attempt to go beyond it)

If you were in charge of one of these factions how would you conduct your war?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible?

or

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way?

Remember, the survival of your faction means winning the war in order to get that precious water. If you lose, your faction gets none of that water. The poll choices are your only options. There is no middle ground. No haggling. No diplomacy available as both factions refuse to come to the negotiation table, or even talk to each other for that matter as the war has started. In fact any attempt to contact or talk to the other side will get you summarily executed right on the spot. Cameras which you have no control over and cannot destroy as it would mean instant death for you are always on you...even in the bathroom, no privacy what so ever. You agreed to it when you became the leader as you want your people to trust you. Only a select group of people are able to watch and see what is going on via those cameras. People you will never have contact with as you know not who they are or how to get ahold of them. This is of course to preserve military tactics. IE: cameras are not broadcast to the public, only those select people. You also have no idea where the leader of the other faction is, just like they have no idea where you are at. You are both as secure as secure can be from any type of spying.

Hopefully I've covered all the bases here. What is your choice?

I don't like the answer I am about to give, and I would prefer that it were otherwise, but I believe it is practical reality.

I would not "exterminate anything that gets in my way", but I would not necessarily spare civilians, either. For good or for bad, warfare has evolved to include civilians. Our resoluteness to include civilians in WW2 helped us win that war, and probably made it quicker. Our unwillingness to include civilians has hampered us in every war since, and is a part of why we have never truly won any of them.

If we're not willing to do what it takes, then we shouldn't even be doing it. At that point we're just tossing our people out there as fodder for a big political chess game.

Civilized war or WAR?

Civilized war or WAR!?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way

More options

Jack Hays

Traveler

LaylaWindu

One with the Force

Kal'Stang

Kal'Stang

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice

polgara

LadyMoonlight

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

blackjack50

Chagos

Ahlevah

Serenity

Stay Human

sawdust

DA60

earthworm

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

Montecresto

US Conservative

Athrawan

Member

gdgyva

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©

Civilized war or WAR?

Civilized war or WAR!?

Civilized war in which you spare innocent civilians as much as possible

WAR! in which you exterminate anything that gets in your way

Traveler

One with the Force

Purge evil with Justice

Burned Out Ex-Mod

Stay Human

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

Member

Phonetic Mnemonic ©

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