Chomsky and Aristotle on the Common Good

[Fishking]

I do understand communism. I also know the difference between propaganda and fact. Authiortian governments that claim to be communist are doomed to failure, usually within 3 generations.

Communism | Definition, History, Varieties, & Facts

Communism, political and economic doctrine that aims to replace private property and a profit-based economy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of a society.

www.britannica.com

I have a minor in political philosophy and I've taught poli-sci as an adjunct professor. . It wasn't my major only because there are no real jobs for a major. Why do you think this forum is so much fun for me?

My major was design engineering.

This is the No True Scotsman fallacy here. What we saw is what communism will always be when attempted to be implemented on any significant level. This is what communism is. Even on small commune levels it's fairly tyrannical and stifles innovation and advancement. It's why you'll never see anything great come out of them.

 

[Fishking]

so you don't know

I just gave you the definition. It's literally your OP. I even highlighted where you talked about it in bold. I don't know how to make it more clear for you.

 

[Jacksprat]

I just gave you the definition. It's literally your OP. I even highlighted where you talked about it in bold. I don't know how to make it more clear for you.

Politics is not about hierarchies. It is about the common good.

 

[Fishking]

Politics is not about hierarchies. It is about the common good.

That's the most incorrect statement I've read in a very, very, long time.

 

[Jacksprat]

That's the most incorrect statement I've read in a very, very, long time.

Yet it is the topic of the thread as stated by Chomsky and Aristotle. I still have no idea why you keep talking about hierarchies.

 

[Fishking]

Yet it is the topic of the thread as stated by Chomsky and Aristotle. I still have no idea why you keep talking about hierarchies.

Yes, that is apparent. It's a lost cause trying to explain the obvious.

 

[Jacksprat]

Yes, that is apparent. It's a lost cause trying to explain the obvious.

Because it is not obvious.

 

[ataraxia]

Why would you prevent them? That's nothing more than stifling free will, property rights, and innovation.

Because societies which allow more people opportunities ultimately do better.

When left completely free, capitalism is like a game of monopoly: fewer and fewer people become the big winners, and everyone else loses and drops out of the game.

 

[Jacksprat]

Because societies which allow more people opportunities ultimately do better.

When left completely free, capitalism is like a game of monopoly: fewer and fewer people become the big winners, and everyone else loses and drops out of the game.

Even Adam Smith did not want absolute capitalism. "The Wealth of Nations" was not a how to get rich quick, manual.

 

[ataraxia]

Even Adam Smith did not want absolute capitalism. "The Wealth of Nations" was not a how to get rich quick, manual.

Capitalism is indeed the gas pedal which makes economies go. But some of our conservative friends are so impressed with the gas pedal that they want a car with no brake pedal or steering wheel. And then they keep wondering why they keep crashing the car.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/kansas-provides-compelling-evidence-of-failure-of-supply-side-tax

 

[Jacksprat]

Capitalism is indeed the gas pedal which makes economies go. But some of our conservative friends are so impressed with the gas pedal that they want a car with no brake pedal or steering wheel. And then they keep wondering why they keep crashing the car when they try that.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/kansas-provides-compelling-evidence-of-failure-of-supply-side-tax

I take Trump to be an example of the failure of capitalism. He became President as a way to be powerful. But he was very petty. Trump only has ambition of his appetites. And this is the failure of capitalism. Democracies cannot yield power to the capitalists.

 

[Fishking]

Because societies which allow more people opportunities ultimately do better.

When left completely free, capitalism is like a game of monopoly: fewer and fewer people become the big winners, and everyone else loses and drops out of the game.

No one is really talking about laissez faire capitalism. However, a capitalist model with a base level of protections and safety nets is obviously the best option.

 

[Craig234]

In other words, Aristotle felt that if you have extremes of poor and rich, you can’t talk seriously about democracy.

How many times have I quoted Louis Brandeis, "A society can choose to have democracy, or great concentration of wealth, but it cannot have both."

 

[Craig234]

Capitalism is indeed the gas pedal which makes economies go. But some of our conservative friends are so impressed with the gas pedal that they want a car with no brake pedal or steering wheel. And then they keep wondering why they keep crashing the car.

It's a rough metaphor, but not totally wrong. Ultimately uncontrolled capitalism is plutocracy, and plutocracy is LESS total wealth, and tyranny.

 

[Craig234]

I take Trump to be an example of the failure of capitalism. He became President as a way to be powerful. But he was very petty. Trump only has ambition of his appetites. And this is the failure of capitalism. Democracies cannot yield power to the capitalists.

This is trite, but using my preferred two terms, plutocratic capitalism and democratic capitalism, plutocratic capitalism gets you pyramids for the pharaohs and slavery, and democratic capitalism gets you suburbs for millions and no slavery.

 

[Craig234]

Think about democracy for a moment. Democracy is your local community, where people have enough in common that they make choices good for the community. This much for schools, this much for police, this much for libraries, these local laws.

It is NOT meant for a mega-society where companies larger than most countries have selfish interests, and greatly influence the 'democracy' with big, dark money to decide who gets elected, to influence what the elected leaders do, to buy propaganda systems to change public opinion. That is no longer democracy. Which we've seen with the purchase of the Supreme Court, for example.

 

[fmw]

In other words, Aristotle felt that if you have extremes of poor and rich, you can’t talk seriously about democracy.

In whose other words? Yours?

 

[ataraxia]

No one is really talking about laissez faire capitalism. However, a capitalist model with a base level of protections and safety nets is obviously the best option.

Wow, I never thought I would hear a conservative say this.

But I guess then the question comes down to: what is your “base level of protection”?

If you ask me, it seems that would include protection of basic human rights. The Universal declaration of human rights include things like food, shelter, a basic education, and access to healthcare.

But conservatives, from Reagan to Trump, have opposed any of those protections as a slippery slope to socialism and communism.

So I am curious how you reconcile what you said above with the actual positions of “conservatives” over the last half century.

 

[Fishking]

Wow, I never thought I would hear a conservative say this.

But I guess then the question comes down to: what is your “base level of protection”?

If you ask me, it seems that would include protection of basic human rights. The Universal declaration of human rights include things like food, shelter, a basic education, and access to healthcare.

But conservatives, from Reagan to Trump, have opposed any of those protections as a slippery slope to socialism and communism.

So I am curious how you reconcile what you said above with the actual positions of “conservatives” over the last half century.

I don't think most conservatives are for laissez faire capitalism. They merely quibble on how much of a safety net is required. For example, what you put above. I wouldn't put all of those as a human right, per se. Some could be considered a privilege bestowed in a rich society, but not a human right. You can't make "things" a human right because you have no right to the labor of others. Further, you put all those things as a human right then you will undermine a society because there will be a growing class that will not provide to the whole because they have all of their needs taken care of.

For healthcare, I do support single payer (not the most conservative of me, I know). It's a long story of how I came to that point, and I don't even like it. Though I'm not a fan of public schools, and am 100% good with vouchers, some form of universal education is good. Shelter wouldn't really be on my list. You can go to a charity or figure it out, unless you have a disability (barring some extreme circumstance) and food is the same.

 

[Tbird]

This perfectly demonstrates that you do not understand communism.

I understand it alright. Do you really believe the elite with their power are going to let the "people" govern themselves. We will be reduced to living in communes."Prison camps in reality. You my naive commie will have no power,no loll

 

[Tbird]

I understand it alright. Do you really believe the elite with their power are going to let the "people" govern themselves. We will be reduced to living in communes."Prison camps in reality. You my naive commie will have no power,no lollipops and rainbows. Like it or lump it.

 

[ataraxia]

I don't think most conservatives are for laissez faire capitalism. They merely quibble on how much of a safety net is required. For example, what you put above. I wouldn't put all of those as a human right, per se. Some could be considered a privilege bestowed in a rich society, but not a human right. You can't make "things" a human right because you have no right to the labor of others. Further, you put all those things as a human right then you will undermine a society because there will be a growing class that will not provide to the whole because they have all of their needs taken care of.

For healthcare, I do support single payer (not the most conservative of me, I know). It's a long story of how I came to that point, and I don't even like it. Though I'm not a fan of public schools, and am 100% good with vouchers, some form of universal education is good. Shelter wouldn't really be on my list. You can go to a charity or figure it out, unless you have a disability (barring some extreme circumstance) and food is the same.

Wow, OK. We may not be that far apart in our positions after all.

But I think you can see how it might irk you if any of those proposals are constantly dismissed and torpedoed by the other side as “slippery slope to communism.”

 

[Jacksprat]

In whose other words? Yours?

ARISTOTLE.

 

[Lisa]

That's the most incorrect statement I've read in a very, very, long time.

Noam Chomsky is an anarchist. Obviously, he would oppose hierarchies and classes.

Where did you get your education on politics and societies?

No one is really talking about laissez faire capitalism. However, a capitalist model with a base level of protections and safety nets is obviously the best option.

No, it is not the best option. Capitalism has always proven to be a problem because of the inherent greed and abuses to increase wealth. Depressions and recessions are the results of the predatory abuses of capitalism. The best is mixed or full market socialism where the private workers (private partnerships) along with the consumers (co-ops) in some cases, plus the government (utilities) owns and controls the means of production. Obviously I support unions. They aren't perfect but they are far better than the alternative, which can border and even be slavery.

 

[Fishking]

I understand it alright. Do you really believe the elite with their power are going to let the "people" govern themselves. We will be reduced to living in communes."Prison camps in reality. You my naive commie will have no power,no loll

I don't think you were understanding my point, because I'm most definitely not supporting communism.