China reports "0" new deaths from coronavirus

[SonOfDaedalus]

Here are the reasons as to why I believe that South Korea and Taiwan's governments have done a better job of containing the COVID-19 pandemic while I do not believe the Chinese government's claims, SonOfDaedalus:

1. Both Taiwan and South Korea are smaller countries which from a logistical perspective means they are able to marshal their emergency resources more easily and effectively and thus able contain outbreaks more easily. China is an absolutely massive sprawling country with several massive megalopolises and a huge dispersed population in the countryside.

2. Both Taiwan and South Korea are geographically isolated (South Korea is a an isolated peninsula while Taiwan is an island) and can prevent easy access into their countries from infected persons from mainland China. Again, China is a huge country with relatively easy freedom of travel.

3. Both Taiwan and South Korea are much more advanced in terms of their countries infrastructure and medical services they can provide their citizens, whereas China is for all its neon lights and its pretty glittering but-nonetheless-cheaply constructed skyscrapers is a developing country. Their medical services outside of their so-called First Tier cities (Wuhan is not a top First Tier city) are generally quite poor.

4. By all indications, both Taiwan and South Korea have prepared more adequately for potential disease outbreaks from mainland China, with contingency plans in place. China meanwhile had no comprehensive plan that went into effect for containing the coronavirus outbreak. Everything they did was ad hoc, and they let hundreds of thousands of people leave Wuhan's culinary festival and disperse across the country without containing them.

5. Both Taiwan and South Korea have governments which are both responsible to the people of their nations (they are law governed democratic republics). The failure of political leaders to adequately prepare or respond would mean that the governments would suffer at the ballot box and if it was bad enough, they might very well suffer in the courts for criminal negligence. The Chinese government has no such similar fears, because they are not beholden to the people. The people of China have no way to hold the government accountable outside of violent revolution. Thus the Chinese government does not feel the same degree of pressure as Taiwan and South Korea for preparing for or responding to the virus outbreak beyond the economic consequences and it literally infecting members of the CCP.

6. Finally, both Taiwan and South Korea have free presses with the possibility for independent investigative journalism, so we are not just relying on information from governmental sources. China has no free and independent press. We know precisely as much information about the situation in China as the Chinese government allows to be released (outside of unauthorized whistleblowers and online activists). And since the Chinese government has lied persistently throughout all of this, I have literally not a single reason to believe them without independent third-party verification for their claims (which, again, the Chinese government has not allowed). We do not even know just how "open" Wuhan really is presently and how contained the Coronavirus is because the Chinese government is not conducting tests of people who have not traveled outside of China.



I have not said that we should not hold our government responsible for failing to adequately prepare and respond to the coronavirus pandemic.

The size of the country is not really the issue. The larger country actually has more resources not less. And whatever you think about the Chinese, they're not stupid. They've had a few epidemics before. They were extremely prepared. They were probably a bit overconfident thinking they could contain any disease. That's why they reopened those wet markets.

China had GPS trackers, color-coded medical building lighting, they built whole hospitals in days. They had plans and were prepared.

Again, the Chinese don't have TV reality show stars as their leaders. They have highly educated competent professionals managing things. That's why it's not surprising that they were able to contain this despite being the first hit and the epicenter.

It just seems a bit irrational for people to insist they couldn't possibly have done as well as Taiwan, South Korea or Germany. Germany is not isolated.

We actually see China reopening its economy and loosening restrictions.

I'm not a fan of the Chinese government. But I notice that some conservatives hate China so much that they lose any rational perspective.

 

[Fiddytree]

I always trust that communists will tell the truth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Tangmo]

The size of the country is not really the issue. The larger country actually has more resources not less. And whatever you think about the Chinese, they're not stupid. They've had a few epidemics before. They were extremely prepared. They were probably a bit overconfident thinking they could contain any disease. That's why they reopened those wet markets.

China had GPS trackers, color-coded medical building lighting, they built whole hospitals in days. They had plans and were prepared.

Again, the Chinese don't have TV reality show stars as their leaders. They have highly educated competent professionals managing things. That's why it's not surprising that they were able to contain this despite being the first hit and the epicenter.

It just seems a bit irrational for people to insist they couldn't possibly have done as well as Taiwan, South Korea or Germany. Germany is not isolated.

We actually see China reopening its economy and loosening restrictions.

I'm not a fan of the Chinese government. But I notice that some conservatives hate China so much that they lose any rational perspective.

You're wrong concerning the highlighted. A major way the Party justifies its elite rule by dictators is to assert the people are ignorant and therefore need to be led and to obey. The vast majority of Chinese accept this -- they always have accepted it over thousands of years. The Party detests democracy and the vast majority of the people accept that.

Secondly, the Chinese and their elites are educated by the elites of the Party and in China it is Party above the government, ie, country. The Party comes first as a matter of Party doctrine and in the absolute. Given Chinese people accept this contempt of democracy and single party rule, and that you buy the Party line of the Party's genius, that leaves me and thee.

 

[Sandokan]

Chinese Regime Concealing True Number of COVID-19 Cases, Evidence Shows
Chinese Regime Concealing True Number of COVID-19 Cases, Evidence Shows

BY BOWEN XIAO April 1, 2020 Updated: April 4, 2020

The Chinese Communist Party has deliberately masked the total number of COVID-19 cases in China in a bid to safeguard its image both nationally and internationally, according to China experts as well as evidence documented by The Epoch Times.

As more countries express anger and frustration over Beijing’s botched handling of the virus—fueled by a wide-reaching coverup—half a dozen experts told The Epoch Times the regime is undeniably underreporting cases of the virus, but to what extent is up for debate.

Beijing itself publicly admitted to hiding the number of people with the disease when it announced it would start reporting cases of asymptomatic carriers on April 1, revealing that it hadn’t been doing so. China’s National Health Commission also acknowledged that asymptomatic carriers can infect others and cause outbreaks, which it had previously dismissed.

John R. Mills, former director of Cybersecurity Policy, Strategy, and International Affairs at the Office of the Secretary of Defense, said the communist regime is “all about legitimacy, stability, and no one questioning their preeminence.”
Click link above for full article.

The death figures reported by the Chinese Communist regime are less than 2% of the actual number. The production of coffins, telephone cancellations, and intelligence reports all point to this. The regime has reported only 3,336 death in a country with a population of 1.4 billion people, an unbelievable figure, and a mathematical impossibility. Caixin Media, a provider of independent, investigative journalism in China, reported that one vendor delivered 5,000 coffins to Hankou Funeral Home in a single day, one and a half time the official death toll, and Another 42,000 are expected to be delivered for the traditional festival on April 5, when tombs are serviced.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The death figures reported by the Chinese Communist regime are less than 2% of the actual number. The production of coffins, telephone cancellations, and intelligence reports all point to this. The regime has reported only 3,336 death in a country with a population of 1.4 billion people, an unbelievable figure, and a mathematical impossibility. Caixin Media, a provider of independent, investigative journalism in China, reported that one vendor delivered 5,000 coffins to Hankou Funeral Home in a single day, one and a half time the official death toll, and Another 42,000 are expected to be delivered for the traditional festival on April 5, when tombs are serviced.

Man it is like no one in China ever dies from anything other than Covid 19.

If one is going to use coffins and urns as a proxy it has to account for the average over a few years for the deliveries before during and after the crisis. I doubt many were being delivered during the lock down. So a dramatic increase after the opening up is expected.

Wuhan with a population of 10 mIllion or so would likely see deaths of 100 000 per year or about 8500 per month.

China as a country would see 14 million plus deaths per year ( estimate likely low). So any Covid estimates would have based on coffins or urns would have to account for this as well.

Last but not least would be the potential for funeral homes to order extra coffins/urns as a precaution to meet expected demand due to the virus regardless og actual deaths

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Al-Jazeera news: China reports no new deaths from coronavirus since epidemic started in January 2020

Point 1 - When you quote a source, it is "considered polite" to actually quote the source and also provide a link.

Point 2 - Many countries, including China, have reported "no new deaths" on any given day. The Chinese have NEVER said that there had NOT been any COVID-19 deaths between when the epidemic "started in January 2020" and 06 MAR 2020.

Point 3 - When you say what a source says, it is "considered polite" to actually say what the source said and not simply make stuff up.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

The death figures reported by the Chinese Communist regime are less than 2% of the actual number. The production of coffins, telephone cancellations, and intelligence reports all point to this. The regime has reported only 3,336 death in a country with a population of 1.4 billion people, an unbelievable figure, and a mathematical impossibility. Caixin Media, a provider of independent, investigative journalism in China, reported that one vendor delivered 5,000 coffins to Hankou Funeral Home in a single day, one and a half time the official death toll, and Another 42,000 are expected to be delivered for the traditional festival on April 5, when tombs are serviced.

Point 1 - NO ONE believes the "official Chinese figures".

Point 2 - Hiding the deaths of 4,095,350 people is "slightly" more difficult than you appear to think that it is.

Point 3 - Does it really matter to Americans how many Chinese have died from COVID-19 when <SARC> "the US has the best healthcare system in the world" and when Mr. Trump "is doing the greatest job of any American President (and of any other world so-called 'leader') in handling the so-called 'COVID-19' so-called 'pandemic' to the point where the US has the world's lowest infection rate, the world's smallest death count, the world's lowest mortality rate, the world's highest testing rate, and an absolute abundance of all so-called 'needed' medical supplies"</SARC>?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Point 1 - NO ONE believes the "official Chinese figures".

Point 2 - Hiding the deaths of 4,095,350 people is "slightly" more difficult than you appear to think that it is.

Point 3 - Does it really matter to Americans how many Chinese have died from COVID-19 when <SARC> "the US has the best healthcare system in the world" and when Mr. Trump "is doing the greatest job of any American President (and of any other world so-called 'leader') in handling the so-called 'COVID-19' so-called 'pandemic' to the point where the US has the world's lowest infection rate, the world's smallest death count, the world's lowest mortality rate, the world's highest testing rate, and an absolute abundance of all so-called 'needed' medical supplies"</SARC>?

From.Jan to now China would I believe have 4 million deaths normally.

A doubling of it would be significant. Given WeChat high deaths from covid 19 would have spread far and wide among Chinese in China and those who live outside China.


Of course the Chinese have to have a more incompetent response than the US so they must have worse numbers. They could not have controlled it through testing and quarantine on unprecedented levels

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

From.Jan to now China would I believe have 4 million deaths normally.

A doubling of it would be significant. Given WeChat high deaths from covid 19 would have spread far and wide among Chinese in China and those who live outside China.


Of course the Chinese have to have a more incompetent response than the US so they must have worse numbers. They could not have controlled it through testing and quarantine on unprecedented levels

There is one -"good"- thing that you can say for the sociopolitical system in China and that is that it lends itself well to coordinated (and strictly enforced) unified responses to natural disasters. In China, if there is a "Stay Home Unless _[fill in the blank]_" order issued, anyone with a lick of sense actually stays home unless they can damn well prove that they fall inside the "_[fill in the blank]_" exception AND the civil authorities don't bother to issue "polite warnings" either.

You do NOT have to use China as a benchmark. In fact, Canada is a much more similar society the the US and so provides a better benchmark.

The updated figures from COVID-19 Coronavirus Pandemic (as of my first coffee of the day) are

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]COUNTRY[/TD]
[TD]TOTAL CASES
(A)[/TD]
[TD]TOTAL DEATHS
(B)[/TD]
[TD]CASES PER
1,000,000[/TD]
[TD]DEATHS PER
1,000,000[/TD]
[TD]MORTALITY RATE
(B)/(A)[/TD]
[TD]TESTS PER
1,000,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHINA
(See NOTE 1)[/TD]
[TD]
81,907[/TD]
[TD]
3,336[/TD]
[TD]
57[/TD]
[TD]
2[/TD]
[TD]
0.0407[/TD]
[TD]
UNKOWN[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]USA[/TD]
[TD]468,895[/TD]
[TD]16,697[/TD]
[TD]1,417[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]0.0356[/TD]
[TD]7,181[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CANADA[/TD]
[TD]20,765[/TD]
[TD]509[/TD]
[TD]550[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0.0245[/TD]
[TD]9,812[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CANADA
x 8.7
(See NOTE 2)[/TD]
[TD]
180,656[/TD]
[TD]
4,428[/TD]
[TD]
550[/TD]
[TD]
13[/TD]
[TD]
0.0245[/TD]
[TD]
9,812[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
​

NOTE 1 – Chinese figures are not accepted as reliable at this time.

NOTE 2 – Absolute numbers adjusted to show what they would be if Canada had the same size population as the US. The ratio numbers remain the same.

NOTE 3 – To put the death statistics in perspective, see the chart at “A Grim Mortality Milestone”. More Americans have now died from COVID-19 than died [a]-in the Battle of Gettysburg (7,058)-[/s] from the H1N1 flu (12,469). The next “major disaster milestone” is the number of deaths -from the H1N1 flu (12,469)- in the Revolutionary War (~25,000).
​

and the Canadian figures are roughly three times more felicitous than the US ones.

PS - Someone who didn't know that coincidence and causation might draw some conclusion from the fact that the number of guns per capita in Canada is roughly 1/3rd that of the number of guns per capita in the US and ramble off in some sort of bizarre post-thread.

 

[Fishking]

I put as much faith in the actual numbers coming out of China as I do in any of the red states who dragged or are still dragging their feet on stay at home orders. They'll never want to admit their negligence resulted in the deaths of their citizens.

You just compared U.S. states with Communist China. Lol...OK dude.

 

[Luce]

You just compared U.S. states with Communist China. Lol...OK dude.

Why not? They both lie when the truth is easier.

 

[gboisjo]

Democrats beat us in Vietnam. Can't forget the leftwing press either.

After becoming president after Kennedy - who was refusing to go to war in Vietnam - was assassinated, LBJ then won election by promises he absolutelyl would not send "American boys to die in S.E. Asia" - calling Goldwater a warmonger. After elected, LBJ sent over half a million American boys to Vietnam.

He announced to North Vietnam and the VietCog that N. Vietnam and Laos were safe bases they could establish based in as points of attack along the entire S. Vietnamese border. Nixon bombed the hell out of N. Vietnam and authorized attack into Laos. Democrats went beserk. The leftwing media blew the whistle on our forces in Laos when only 5 kms from the enemy base.

With riots across the USA and blocked from actually being able to attack the enemy always meant the war was unwinnable. Nixon massively bombed Hanoi so at least our troops could safely leave. Democrats in Congress declared attacking the enemy was grounds of impeachment.

The Viet Nam war was started by a Harry Truman ..after that it was ratcheted up by Dwight D Eisenhower, John F Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson and Richard Nixon.

State Department officials in Asia warned Harry Truman, who became president in 1945 upon Roosevelt’s death, that French rule of Vietnam would lead to “bloodshed and unrest.

No sooner did the French arrive back in Vietnam, with the guns of World War II barely gone cold, than fighting broke out against Ho’s Viet Minh forces.

Truman asserted that U.S. foreign policy was to assist any country whose stability is threatened by communism as to French Colonialism and explotation all was good.

Truman sent over transport planes and jeeps, along with 35 military advisers, as part of a multimillion-dollar aid package.

By the end of Truman’s presidency, the United States was funding more than one-third of France’s war costs, a number that would soon skyrocket to about 80 percent.

You talk about wrong turn in American Foreign Policy and thinking, here it is. Both Parties were all in.

I almost died over there, for nothing.

How the Vietnam War Ratcheted Up Under 5 U.S. Presidents - HISTORY

 

[Fishking]

Why not? They both lie when the truth is easier.

Because it's incredibly stupid.

 

[Luce]

Because it's incredibly stupid.

So, in your opinion, the US government does not lie at the federal or state level?

 

[Fishking]

So, in your opinion, the US government does not lie at the federal or state level?

Let me ask you this...do you breath oxygen? Because Hitler also breathed oxygen. So if you do, you're like Hitler.

 

[Luce]

Let me ask you this...do you breath oxygen? Because Hitler also breathed oxygen. So if you do, you're like Hitler.

If you are afraid of the question, just say so.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

There is one -"good"- thing that you can say for the sociopolitical system in China and that is that it lends itself well to coordinated (and strictly enforced) unified responses to natural disasters. In China, if there is a "Stay Home Unless _[fill in the blank]_" order issued, anyone with a lick of sense actually stays home unless they can damn well prove that they fall inside the "_[fill in the blank]_" exception AND the civil authorities don't bother to issue "polite warnings" either.

You do NOT have to use China as a benchmark. In fact, Canada is a much more similar society the the US and so provides a better benchmark.

The updated figures from COVID-19 Coronavirus Pandemic (as of my first coffee of the day) are

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]COUNTRY[/TD]
[TD]TOTAL CASES
(A)[/TD]
[TD]TOTAL DEATHS
(B)[/TD]
[TD]CASES PER
1,000,000[/TD]
[TD]DEATHS PER
1,000,000[/TD]
[TD]MORTALITY RATE
(B)/(A)[/TD]
[TD]TESTS PER
1,000,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHINA
(See NOTE 1)[/TD]
[TD]
81,907[/TD]
[TD]
3,336[/TD]
[TD]
57[/TD]
[TD]
2[/TD]
[TD]
0.0407[/TD]
[TD]
UNKOWN[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]USA[/TD]
[TD]468,895[/TD]
[TD]16,697[/TD]
[TD]1,417[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]0.0356[/TD]
[TD]7,181[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CANADA[/TD]
[TD]20,765[/TD]
[TD]509[/TD]
[TD]550[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0.0245[/TD]
[TD]9,812[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CANADA
x 8.7
(See NOTE 2)[/TD]
[TD]
180,656[/TD]
[TD]
4,428[/TD]
[TD]
550[/TD]
[TD]
13[/TD]
[TD]
0.0245[/TD]
[TD]
9,812[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
​

NOTE 1 – Chinese figures are not accepted as reliable at this time.

NOTE 2 – Absolute numbers adjusted to show what they would be if Canada had the same size population as the US. The ratio numbers remain the same.

NOTE 3 – To put the death statistics in perspective, see the chart at “A Grim Mortality Milestone”. More Americans have now died from COVID-19 than died [a]-in the Battle of Gettysburg (7,058)-[/s] from the H1N1 flu (12,469). The next “major disaster milestone” is the number of deaths -from the H1N1 flu (12,469)- in the Revolutionary War (~25,000).
​

and the Canadian figures are roughly three times more felicitous than the US ones.

PS - Someone who didn't know that coincidence and causation might draw some conclusion from the fact that the number of guns per capita in Canada is roughly 1/3rd that of the number of guns per capita in the US and ramble off in some sort of bizarre post-thread.

Re China and stay at home orders

When anyone was put into a stay at home order the community/local government organized and arranged for food to be delivered to those individuals. The food and delivery costs were covered by the government.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You just compared U.S. states with Communist China. Lol...OK dude.

At one level, that he did.

The level was "honesty and reliability of COVID-19 statistics".

Exactly the same "You just compared U.S. states with Communist China. Lol...OK dude. " statement would be equally valid if I were to say that the PRC was almost as large as the United States of America and the accuracy of the implication that I had claimed that the two countries were identical would be just as valid.

 

[Fishking]

At one level, that he did.

The level was "honesty and reliability of COVID-19 statistics".

Exactly the same "You just compared U.S. states with Communist China. Lol...OK dude. " statement would be equally valid if I were to say that the PRC was almost as large as the United States of America and the accuracy of the implication that I had claimed that the two countries were identical would be just as valid.

No..it's not the same at all. Ignorant people are gonna ignorant though. Y'all have no clue the, or maybe willfully ignorant, of how much disinformation and controlling of information China employs. And y'all...out of your blind partisan hatred, think that in a free and open society we live in the U.S. has certain states just pushing out all kinda of false information and lies is just ridiculous.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Re China and stay at home orders

When anyone was put into a stay at home order the community/local government organized and arranged for food to be delivered to those individuals. The food and delivery costs were covered by the government.

But, but, BUT - that's SOCIALISM!!!

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

No..it's not the same at all. Ignorant people are gonna ignorant though. Y'all have no clue the, or maybe willfully ignorant, of how much disinformation and controlling of information China employs. And y'all...out of your blind partisan hatred, think that in a free and open society we live in the U.S. has certain states just pushing out all kinda of false information and lies is just ridiculous.

The states are "pushing out" the information that they want to see because that is the only information that they do see.

I don't say that the information that the states are "pushing out" IS false, only that I am skeptical of its actual accuracy.

 

[Fishking]

If you are afraid of the question, just say so.

I'm not afraid the question, it's an absurd question that I highlighted. Making incredibly specious comparisons is moronic.

 

[Fishking]

The states are "pushing out" the information that they want to see because that is the only information that they do see.

I don't say that the information that the states are "pushing out" IS false, only that I am skeptical of its actual accuracy.

The state governments are controlling all the doctors, in all the hospitals, that exists in their states? Do you hear how utterly idiotic that sounds?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The state governments are controlling all the doctors, in all the hospitals, that exists in their states? Do you hear how utterly idiotic that sounds?

It is the state that compiles the info from the doctics and hospitals. So the state has the option of counting this bit not that.
China only counted officially those that tested positive and showed symptoms. Leaving those who had it but did not show symptoms of the infection

 

[Fishking]

It is the state that compiles the info from the doctics and hospitals. So the state has the option of counting this bit not that.
China only counted officially those that tested positive and showed symptoms. Leaving those who had it but did not show symptoms of the infection

That doesn't explain 0 deaths. No where else in the world has their deaths to 0. China is lying. This is different than having different reporting standards.