China operationalizes world's first thorium reactor

[phoenix2020]

I'm just talking about the radioactivity of the waste products themselves. Cesium-137 and strontium-90 are fairly nasty.

A thorium reactor would produce roughly half the amount of Cesium-137 per GWh versus a U-235 reactor. Start with half the waste, deal with half the radioactivity. It's a somewhat similar story for Strontium-90.

 

[phoenix2020]

Could it launched towards the sun*, or is it a cost problem?



* - only partially tongue-in-cheek

I doubt anybody would want to launch large quantities of radioactive cesium and strontium on a vessel that could explode in the atmosphere.

 

[Oozlefinch]

China builds world’s first thorium reactor with US secret files

After years of research and US data analysis, China has built a working thorium reactor and run it through a successful fuel reload.

interestingengineering.com

Online searches can brief you on the potential advantages of this new source of energy, but in short, there are many. It's only 2MW so still quite small, but it's operationalized with the ability to replace the molten salt while the reactor remains operational, which was one of the final remaining problems to solve. Sounds like they'll now move on to developing a 10MW demonstrator.

Very impressive work.

But it is not the "first thorium reactor". That was actually the Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE) back in 1965 at the Oak Ridge Lab. And after that you had the Light Weight Breeder Reactor (LWBR) Shippingport Atomic Power Station in Pennsylvania that was rated at 60 mw from 1977-1982.

Like so many things, this is yet another example of where despite the claims made by some it is hardly the first. It has been done before. So great, they have a 2 mw plant and want to develop a 10 mw plant. Still a fraction of what the US did almost half a century ago.

Oh, and then there is the issue of what to do with the radioactive molten salts. That was a major issue when both MSRE and LWRB were decommissioned. As extreme care must be taken with them because they are so damned easy to leech into the water supply.

Oh, and that thorium reactors are by how they operate breeder reactors, so can be used to breed weapons grade uranium. The first experiments into this actually date all the way back to Glenn Seaborg in 1940. And probably the first purpose built "thorium reactor" was in reality EBR-1. But the same techniques were used for production of fuel for atomic weapons.

So in reality, not very impressive. Just going over territory done decades earlier. But good news, this can now be exported by China to multiple other nations to assist in the nuclear proliferation.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Start with half the waste, deal with half the radioactivity.

I guess we will ignore the radioactive molten salts.

 

[CLAX1911]

China builds world’s first thorium reactor with US secret files

After years of research and US data analysis, China has built a working thorium reactor and run it through a successful fuel reload.

interestingengineering.com

Online searches can brief you on the potential advantages of this new source of energy, but in short, there are many. It's only 2MW so still quite small, but it's operationalized with the ability to replace the molten salt while the reactor remains operational, which was one of the final remaining problems to solve. Sounds like they'll now move on to developing a 10MW demonstrator.

Very impressive work.

I know how a uranium reactor works they react uranium-235 with uranium-238 and that generates heat. Is there a similar way a thorium reactor works?

 

[phoenix2020]

I know how a uranium reactor works they react uranium-235 with uranium-238 and that generates heat. Is there a similar way a thorium reactor works?

Same basic mechanism - fission generating heat, converting that heat to a generator. Just different fissile materials. In fact the thorium is bombarded with protons and converted to U-232 which then undergoes fission.

 

[CLAX1911]

Same basic mechanism - fission generating heat, converting that heat to a generator. Just different fissile materials. In fact the thorium is bombarded with protons and converted to U-232 which then undergoes fission.

Interesting. I remember a few years ago hearing about a thorium the doctor and I was wondering if you have a different types of thorium but you can bombard it with something that isn't necessarily thorium. If that's the case that's why it won't melt down typically when a fishing reactor that runs on uranium melts down it's because the do isotopes stick to one another it'll be confused and then it's a runaway thing.

If that's taken out of the equation yeah it's pretty safe

 

[CaughtInThe]

We have coal.

 

[CLAX1911]

We have coal.

We have uranium power plants. Thorium is just a fuel source

 

[CLAX1911]

Same basic mechanism - fission generating heat, converting that heat to a generator. Just different fissile materials. In fact the thorium is bombarded with protons and converted to U-232 which then undergoes fission.

Thorium itself isn't fissile the isotope is 232 it has to absorb a neutron becoming uranium-233 in order to be fissile.

 

[bythoughts]

Oh, and that thorium reactors are by how they operate breeder reactors, so can be used to breed weapons grade uranium. The first experiments into this actually date all the way back to Glenn Seaborg in 1940. And probably the first purpose built "thorium reactor" was in reality EBR-1. But the same techniques were used for production of fuel for atomic weapons.

What you said mostly makes sense, but the Experimental Breeder Reactor I article in Wikipedia says it used highly enriched uranium.

The argument that thorium reactors hinder nuclear proliferation seem mostly reasonable, though as you point out they can be used to breed plutonium anyway.

It should be noted that back when the U.S. was a free country, a future Eagle Scout actually earned one of his badges by building a thorium breeder reactor in a potting shed. Spoil-funs from the government did haul away some of the stuff as radioactive waste, though as far as I know the stuff his Mom threw out is still in a landfill somewhere.

It is still moderately commendable that China is exploring less-abusable nuclear reactors, I think. Though if they put one on every big container ship around the world we could get pretty tired of the fallout.

 

[CLAX1911]

What you said mostly makes sense, but the Experimental Breeder Reactor I article in Wikipedia says it used highly enriched uranium.

The argument that thorium reactors hinder nuclear proliferation seem mostly reasonable, though as you point out they can be used to breed plutonium anyway.

Well the way I heard it said it's difficult to make weapons out of thorium but it's difficult to make it out of uranium as well.

It should be noted that back when the U.S. was a free country, a future Eagle Scout actually earned one of his badges by building a thorium breeder reactor in a potting shed. Spoil-funs from the government did haul away some of the stuff as radioactive waste, though as far as I know the stuff his Mom threw out is still in a landfill somewhere.

It is still moderately commendable that China is exploring less-abusable nuclear reactors, I think. Though if they put one on every big container ship around the world we could get pretty tired of the fallout.

I'm more worried about China's history with quality. No put toxic chemicals in rice to save a few pennies poisoning their own children. And there's a term that use for construction that seems to be very flimsy called tofu dreg. We're not talking about the stuff built in the 80s that's falling apart today we're talking about stuff built in 2019 that's falling apart today.

 

[jmotivator]

I remember some years ago China was making progress in treating spinal cord injuries using stem cells. Meanwhile, the Bush administration put limits on stem cell research, which only slows our scientific progress.

How'd that go for China?

 

[Oozlefinch]

It should be noted that back when the U.S. was a free country, a future Eagle Scout actually earned one of his badges by building a thorium breeder reactor in a potting shed. Spoil-funs from the government did haul away some of the stuff as radioactive waste, though as far as I know the stuff his Mom threw out is still in a landfill somewhere.

It should be noted that David Hahn did not built a thorium breeder reactor. He attempted to build one, and it used a mish-mash of multiple radioactive isotopes, including thorium, americium, radium, and tritium. However, he did not make any kind of nuclear reactor, all he made was a large radioactive mess. When his house and neighborhood in 1985 started showing 1,000 times the background radiation expected in the area, he got scared and started to dismantle his experiment. Then the FBI, NRC and EPA got involved, and his home was declared a Superfund site.

And it must be remembered, what his mom threw out was all low level stuff that ends up there anyways for the most part. Most of it he collected from smoke detectors, camping lantern mantels, and the like. The most interesting part was likely the tritium that he collected from old guns sights, clocks and the like. That stuff is actually amazingly valuable, as in over $30,000 per gram.

However, his later life is also interesting. He joined the Navy in the hopes of becoming a nuclear plant technician, but spent his 4 years there in communications. Then joined the Marines, but was medically discharged.

Then a new FBI investigation started in 2007, when they learned he was attempting to build another one. By this time he had been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, and had been not taking is medication but using drugs. Then he was arrested for the theft of multiple smoke detectors in his apartment building. He died in 2016 from an overdose including alcohol, fentanyl, and Benadryl.

But he did not make any kind of breeder reactor. All he made was a radioactive mess.

 

[jmotivator]

China builds world’s first thorium reactor with US secret files

After years of research and US data analysis, China has built a working thorium reactor and run it through a successful fuel reload.

interestingengineering.com

Online searches can brief you on the potential advantages of this new source of energy, but in short, there are many. It's only 2MW so still quite small, but it's operationalized with the ability to replace the molten salt while the reactor remains operational, which was one of the final remaining problems to solve. Sounds like they'll now move on to developing a 10MW demonstrator.

Very impressive work.

China is good at making major grandiose proclamations of their technical prowess that generally fail to meet the sniff test.

The headline is even wrong. There have been 19 Thorium reactors built in the world, 16 of which were built before China built their first in 2023. The earliest was built by Canada in 1947.

The article states that they are building a "bigger" thorium salt reactor by 2030 that will generate a whole 10 MW of power. That is university test reactor size, not commercially viable.

I like the Thorium molten-salt technology, and it will be good if/when it starts to become commercially viable, but at the moment SMRs (small modular reactors that can be packed and delivered by a tractor trailer) are the cutting edge tech, and those will be rolling out in the US by the time China finishes it's 10 MW thorium reactor, and the SMRs will pump out 300 MW each.

 

[Gordy327]

How'd that go for China?

I read they treated a cord injury patient who showed some recovery as a result.

 

[jmotivator]

I'm more worried about China's history with quality. No put toxic chemicals in rice to save a few pennies poisoning their own children. And there's a term that use for construction that seems to be very flimsy called tofu dreg. We're not talking about the stuff built in the 80s that's falling apart today we're talking about stuff built in 2019 that's falling apart today.

I watch a weekly YouTube channel called The China Show, and it's a real eye opener to how bad things really are in China.

The push to massively build up Chinese infrastructure under Xi Jinping has lead to a lot of disastrous shortcuts in building code. Some of the worst:

* Make new cities and major developments have no drainage. The streets have drain grates, as required by law, but the law doesn't require and actual sewer to drain into. This is why flooding in China is getting worse. They guild up land with streets and buildings that impede natural drainage, and put nothing in it's place, so even moderate rains cause major flooding.

* Same as above, but with fire hydrants. New developments have the proper number of prescribed fire hydrants, but they aren't connected to water, they and just installed in the dirt like a fence post.

* The use of sea sand in concrete manufacturing is creating an infrastructure time bomb and sea sand doesn't bind like proper sand for concrete. Concrete made with sea sand dissolves after a couple of years and can be crumbled in your hands.

* The demand for steel in the Chinese construction has lead to massive shortcuts to save cost and maintain supply. The worst is the rebar that is not properly heat treated by dowsing and is instead allowed to cool in the air, which causes the steel to crystalize which makes it very brittle to the point that you can snap the rebar over your knee.

Many major building projects in China are now failing in their first year do to a combination of the 4 items above and it's only going to get worse.

The only good news to be had from this is that Chinese military build up isn't fairing much better than their public works.

 

[jmotivator]

I read they treated a cord injury patient who showed some recovery as a result.

And who verified that? Was this a Chinese government announcement?

 

[Gordy327]

And who verified that? Was this a Chinese government announcement?

I just said it was something I read.

 

[jmotivator]

I just said it was something I read.

Did the something you read fail to attribute the claim to anyone, or independently verify it?

By the way, the Bush policy didn't eliminate stem cell studies. Stem cells can be manufactured from already differentiate cells which has more promise than embryonic stem cells since the manufacture stem cells are created from the patients own cells and so they are not seen as foreign cells by the immune system.

 

[Gordy327]

Did the something you read fail to attribute the claim to anyone, or independently verify it?

I dont remember. It was quite a while ago.

 

[jmotivator]

I dont remember. It was quite a while ago.

Which is mostly my point. If anything actually came of that line of study it wouldn't have been an obscure article "quite a while ago" that you can't remember much about.

Stem cell study continues in the US, but uses created stem cells from already differentiated cells which makes them more built to purpose. But even that is slow going and still in the "might" phase. Putting foreign stem cells into the body wouldn't be the optimal, anyway.

Study finds stem cell therapy is safe and may benefit people with spinal cord injuries - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[bythoughts]

It should be noted that David Hahn did not built a thorium breeder reactor. He attempted to build one, and it used a mish-mash of multiple radioactive isotopes, including thorium, americium, radium, and tritium. However, he did not make any kind of nuclear reactor, all he made was a large radioactive mess. When his house and neighborhood in 1985 started showing 1,000 times the background radiation expected in the area, he got scared and started to dismantle his experiment. Then the FBI, NRC and EPA got involved, and his home was declared a Superfund site.

Well, to quote my source:

As it decays, americium-241 emits alpha rays composed of protons and neutrons. David put the lump of americium inside a hollow block of lead with a tiny hole pricked in one side so that alpha rays would stream out. In front of the lead block he placed a sheet of aluminum. Aluminum atoms absorb alpha rays and in the process kick out neutrons. Since neutrons have no charge, and thus cannot be measured by a Geiger counter, David had no way of knowing whether the gun was working until he recalled that paraffin throws off protons when hit by neutrons. David aimed the apparatus at some paraffin, and his Geiger counter registered what he assumed was a proton stream. His neutron gun, crude but effective, was ready.

That's not just a mishmash - it's an authentic effort to convert thorium to uranium. As he had also made an effort to collect U-238, it is at least plausible that his reactor produced some plutonium. It is also highly plausible that it produced a dangerous radioactive mess ... indeed, that's pretty much a requirement for us to believe it was a thorium breeder reactor.

 

[CLAX1911]

I watch a weekly YouTube channel called The China Show, and it's a real eye opener to how bad things really are in China.

I watch that, was recommended it by close friends that lived in China.

The push to massively build up Chinese infrastructure under Xi Jinping has lead to a lot of disastrous shortcuts in building code. Some of the worst:

* Make new cities and major developments have no drainage. The streets have drain grates, as required by law, but the law doesn't require and actual sewer to drain into. This is why flooding in China is getting worse. They guild up land with streets and buildings that impede natural drainage, and put nothing in it's place, so even moderate rains cause major flooding.

* Same as above, but with fire hydrants. New developments have the proper number of prescribed fire hydrants, but they aren't connected to water, they and just installed in the dirt like a fence post.

* The use of sea sand in concrete manufacturing is creating an infrastructure time bomb and sea sand doesn't bind like proper sand for concrete. Concrete made with sea sand dissolves after a couple of years and can be crumbled in your hands.

* The demand for steel in the Chinese construction has lead to massive shortcuts to save cost and maintain supply. The worst is the rebar that is not properly heat treated by dowsing and is instead allowed to cool in the air, which causes the steel to crystalize which makes it very brittle to the point that you can snap the rebar over your knee.

Many major building projects in China are now failing in their first year do to a combination of the 4 items above and it's only going to get worse.

So imagine these people with a nuclear reactor and yes thorium reactors can be just as bad. If you caught Friday's show they recommended a video about thorium reactors by t folse nuclear he's a nuclear physicist.

The only good news to be had from this is that Chinese military build up isn't fairing much better than their public works.

Indeed

 

[Gordy327]

Which is mostly my point. If anything actually came of that line of study it wouldn't have been an obscure article "quite a while ago" that you can't remember much about.

Stem cell study continues in the US, but uses created stem cells from already differentiated cells which makes them more built to purpose. But even that is slow going and still in the "might" phase. Putting foreign stem cells into the body wouldn't be the optimal, anyway.

Study finds stem cell therapy is safe and may benefit people with spinal cord injuries - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

The problem is the lack of funding and support. Some people have this irrational qualm about using stem cells, even for research.