China deploys it's carrier group to the South China sea

[APACHERAT]

Hence my frustration at the permanent retirement of the Battleships.

An Iowa class BB launching waves of missiles at such a ship would be a serious threat. Especially since nothing that could be fired in return could do serious damage even if they hit.



Remember, even the Soviets/Russians did not consider this hull a carrier, but an "aircraft carrying heavy missile cruiser".

And without actually having any aircraft, it is not a very effective cruiser.

I concur with both statements.

Everyone talks about the Chinese carrier as a carrier and comparing it to a Nimitz class carrier. The ship is a cruiser that just happens to have a flight deck and able to handle a handful of aircraft. Nobody brings up what the ship's main weapons system is, vertical launch (that's why you don't see them) anti ship missiles. And also SAM missiles.

The original Soviet Kiev class carriers/cruisers were designed to deny NATO ASW ships and aircraft access to the Soviet ballistic missile submarine bastions.

The original armament was 4X SSN-12 (Sand Box) anti-ship missiles, 24X SAN-9 SAM launchers, 2X 100 MM dual purpose guns and 8X CIWS 30MM gatling guns.
It deployed 18X ASW & EW helicopters and 12 X Yak folgers fighters who's mission was to attack P-3 Orions.

Have no idea on how the Chinese plan to use their new ship and the other three that are in the pipeline for. I wonder if the Chinese know ?

 

[Wiggen]

Take a good long look at that carrier everyone. Because it's getting sunk the first night of the war.

Maybe in the first ten minutes. I'd be willing to bet there's at least one U.S. attack sub sitting right on the edge of that formation as that picture was taken.

 

[Montecresto]

We aren't there yet, but it feels like the pre 1939 period.

Why? Is China a threat to us if we stay on our side of the street?

 

[Montecresto]

I would say pre 1935 but in two years they'll be at the pre 1939 level.

They are progressing faster than most in the naval community thought they would be progressing.

Been saying that!

 

[jbi]

Maybe in the first ten minutes. I'd be willing to bet there's at least one U.S. attack sub sitting right on the edge of that formation as that picture was taken.

Probably several US subs in the south China sea.

The USS Cowpen was certainly in the area... along with the Chinese tank landing ship it nearly ran into, which is not featured in these photo's

 

[Montecresto]

It is dangerous without any question and will only get worse. But what to do and how and when?

Why does the US ALWAYS have to do something?? What's there to do?

 

[Montecresto]

During the 1930's FDR started building up our Navy.

Obama has taken the other direction of gutting our Navy.

History will tell which President took the correct approach of dealing with the threat.

You boys itching for another war? This won't be like knocking over Saddam Hussein. And why, wtf is wrong with people? We've been doing a big business with China for years, what's our quarrel with China. The China sea is THEIR back yard, not ours. I for one will hope we leave China the **** alone. One of these days we're going to poke at the wrong guy.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I concur with both statements.

Everyone talks about the Chinese carrier as a carrier and comparing it to a Nimitz class carrier. The ship is a cruiser that just happens to have a flight deck and able to handle a handful of aircraft. Nobody brings up what the ship's main weapons system is, vertical launch (that's why you don't see them) anti ship missiles. And also SAM missiles.

The original Soviet Kiev class carriers/cruisers were designed to deny NATO ASW ships and aircraft access to the Soviet ballistic missile submarine bastions.

Mostly the purpose of this ship was to give it's fleets some air cover, not to be "Strike Carriers". They carried a mix of aircraft, mostly to five it's fleets some air to air defense without having to rely purely upon defensive systems.

And for this purpose, the design actually worked pretty good. But these are most definitely not carriers as the US has them.

Comparing this to a US carrier is rather like comparing a Sangamon class escort carrier to a Midway class battle carrier. Sure, both are aircraft carriers, but that is pretty much where the comparison ends.

 

[Montecresto]

Our president buries his head in the sand.

Weakness is strength. Appeasement is masterful diplomacy. Right is wrong. :doh

The world has correctly read him as a chump.

WHAT? In December of 2011 Obama went to Australia to deliver a speech aimed at China. He said he was stationing the Marines in Australia, just to let Asia know that the US was in town just in case China starts any ****. A couple weeks later, Leon Panetta proclaimed that the pentagon would be moving 60% of its assets to WestPac. The Chinese president told his generals to prepare for war. We are building a super base in Guam and the SecDef visited Vietnam with an eye on their deep water port. Military excercises have been conducted with other regional countries, and the Pentagon just delivered their annual report on China to congress in which they expressed "serious concerns" over China's growing military power. Don't worry, Obama is quite capable of giving you the war you want.

 

[APACHERAT]

Probably several US subs in the south China sea.

The USS Cowpen was certainly in the area... along with the Chinese tank landing ship it nearly ran into, which is not featured in these photo's

Who was the Captain of the Cowpens at the time ?

I've been following a certain Navy Commander who has also almost rammed other ships because the lack of seamanship while in command of the Cowpens.

After almost ramming an Arleigh Burke destroyer while having a drag race (not that type of drag) the Navy had no choice but to have a hearing. Any other captain of a ship would have walked the plank, but since she was a she and one of the new kind of PC naval officers, she only got a slap on the wrist.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Why? Is China a threat to us if we stay on our side of the street?

No, no more then we are if they stay on their side of the street.

The problem with China lately is that it is trying to pressure US allies and interests. And this should not be tolerated, no more then if we started to do the same thing to their allies and interests.

Personally, I really do not care what kind of ships anybody has. I do not see a ship or ships as a threat of and by themselves, I am not that paranoid. However, when they use those ships to threaten say the Philippines, then I become concerned.

One thing I have to admit about the Soviet Union, they knew where to push and where not to push. And when it came to Navy against Navy, they did not push us much, other then some games with submarines. China in this area has been much more aggressive, and that aggressiveness is what has me the most worried. Because sometime the situation will arise where we will not back down, and then a shooting war may start.

 

[US Conservative]

No, no more then we are if they stay on their side of the street.

The problem with China lately is that it is trying to pressure US allies and interests. And this should not be tolerated, no more then if we started to do the same thing to their allies and interests.

Personally, I really do not care what kind of ships anybody has. I do not see a ship or ships as a threat of and by themselves, I am not that paranoid. However, when they use those ships to threaten say the Philippines, then I become concerned.

One thing I have to admit about the Soviet Union, they knew where to push and where not to push. And when it came to Navy against Navy, they did not push us much, other then some games with submarines. China in this area has been much more aggressive, and that aggressiveness is what has me the most worried. Because sometime the situation will arise where we will not back down, and then a shooting war may start.

Excellent points, dont forget Korea, Taiwan, and Japan.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Why does the US ALWAYS have to do something?? What's there to do?

We do not. There are a lot of situations around the world where we have pretty much done nothing, because it is not in our interest at all.

But when it comes to nations we have defense treaties with (Japan, Philippines), we are obligated to respond.

However, say if China tried to pressure Indonesia, or Vietnam, or Cambodia, we have no treaty with those nations, so we would likely just sit back and do nothing unless asked to get involved.

 

[US Conservative]

WHAT? In December of 2011 Obama went to Australia to deliver a speech aimed at China. He said he was stationing the Marines in Australia, just to let Asia know that the US was in town just in case China starts any ****. A couple weeks later, Leon Panetta proclaimed that the pentagon would be moving 60% of its assets to WestPac. The Chinese president told his generals to prepare for war. We are building a super base in Guam and the SecDef visited Vietnam with an eye on their deep water port. Military excercises have been conducted with other regional countries, and the Pentagon just delivered their annual report on China to congress in which they expressed "serious concerns" over China's growing military power. Don't worry, Obama is quite capable of giving you the war you want.

I dont expect war with China, I dont want war with China. We have (for now) many mutual interests. However they are sabre rattling and chest thumping all over the Pacific and we need to push back to set acceptable boundaries.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Excellent points, dont forget Korea, Taiwan, and Japan.

Taiwan is actually pretty unique.

Back in 1979, President Carter ended the "Two China" policy, and on 1 January 1980 revoked formal recognition of Taiwan, including our mutual-defense treaty with them.

So would we be obligated to respond if the PRC attacked the ROC? No, because we do not formally recognize the ROC. But I would bet dollars to doughnuts that we would get involved.

 

[APACHERAT]

You boys itching for another war? This won't be like knocking over Saddam Hussein. And why, wtf is wrong with people? We've been doing a big business with China for years, what's our quarrel with China. The China sea is THEIR back yard, not ours. I for one will hope we leave China the **** alone. One of these days we're going to poke at the wrong guy.

I'm a srong believer in "Peace Through Strength."

You rarely see a 90 pound sissy punching a 200 pound man who's built like a brick #### house on the streets.

I also kind of tend to go with "Talk softly and carry a big stick."

 

[US Conservative]

Taiwan is actually pretty unique.

Back in 1979, President Carter ended the "Two China" policy, and on 1 January 1980 revoked formal recognition of Taiwan, including our mutual-defense treaty with them.

So would we be obligated to respond if the PRC attacked the ROC? No, because we do not formally recognize the ROC. But I would bet dollars to doughnuts that we would get involved.

Id hope so, also, dont Korea, Japan, and Taiwan have some sort of alliance independent of the US?

 

[US Conservative]

I'm a srong believer in "Peace Through Strength."

You rarely see a 90 pound sissy punching a 200 pound man who's built like a brick #### house on the streets.

I also kind of tend to go with "Talk softly and carry a big stick."

Obama talks loudly and carries a toothpick.

 

[APACHERAT]

WHAT? In December of 2011 Obama went to Australia to deliver a speech aimed at China. He said he was stationing the Marines in Australia, just to let Asia know that the US was in town just in case China starts any ****. A couple weeks later, Leon Panetta proclaimed that the pentagon would be moving 60% of its assets to WestPac. The Chinese president told his generals to prepare for war. We are building a super base in Guam and the SecDef visited Vietnam with an eye on their deep water port. Military excercises have been conducted with other regional countries, and the Pentagon just delivered their annual report on China to congress in which they expressed "serious concerns" over China's growing military power. Don't worry, Obama is quite capable of giving you the war you want.

The only reason the Marines are being billeted on a rotation basis in Australia is because Marine ground combat forces have been evicted from Okinawa. The Obama administration was running all over the Western Pacific rim looking for shelter for the Marines.

Unless there is a U.S. Navy Gator presence in Australia, the Marines are useless.

There's more to the story, Congress appropriated the funds to build the barracks to house the Marines on Guam. For some reason when Obama became POTUS, the barracks were never built. What was the money spent on ? Diversity training maybe ?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Id hope so, also, dont Korea, Japan, and Taiwan have some sort of alliance independent of the US?

Japan stopped formal recognition of Taiwan back in 1972. South Korea ended their recognition back in 1992.

Foreign relations of Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[US Conservative]

Japan stopped formal recognition of Taiwan back in 1972. South Korea ended their recognition back in 1992.

Foreign relations of Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some interesting reading here.
http://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/china...ia-pacific-and-the-u-s-japan-taiwan-alliance/

 

[Montecresto]

I dont expect war with China, I dont want war with China. We have (for now) many mutual interests. However they are sabre rattling and chest thumping all over the Pacific and we need to push back to set acceptable boundaries.

All over the pacific?? What hyperbole!

 

[APACHERAT]

Mostly the purpose of this ship was to give it's fleets some air cover, not to be "Strike Carriers". They carried a mix of aircraft, mostly to five it's fleets some air to air defense without having to rely purely upon defensive systems.

And for this purpose, the design actually worked pretty good. But these are most definitely not carriers as the US has them.

Comparing this to a US carrier is rather like comparing a Sangamon class escort carrier to a Midway class battle carrier. Sure, both are aircraft carriers, but that is pretty much where the comparison ends.

I concur.

The Soviet Navy did build four cruisers who's only mission was to sink American super carriers and it's escorts. The Slava class cruiser. It's main offensive weapon being 16 X SS N-12 (Sand Box) supersonic anti-ship missiles. Each has a 2,000 pound semi armor piercing warhead. 750 pounds shy from an Iowa class 16" gun 2,750 pound AP round.

During the Obama-Putin stare down over Syria the Nimitz CSG was ordered from the 5th Fleet AOR to the 6th Fleet AOR in the Mediterranean Sea. When the Nimitz CSG was in the Red Sea headed to the canal to transit into the Med, Putin moved a Slava class cruiser into the Med. That raised our admirals eyebrows.

If a shooting war were to happen, you sure didn't want a Nimitz class carrier with in range of a Slava class cruiser. Basically the Nimitz CSG found itself stuck in the Red Sea. Not a good place for a CSG since the Aegis weapons systems on our cruisers and destroyers have a problem in the littorals. The Aegis weapons system is a blue water weapons system.

Slava Class Guided Missile Cruiser - Naval Technology

 

[US Conservative]

All over the pacific?? What hyperbole!

Why dont you move to china, comrade? :roll:

 

[Montecresto]

Obama talks loudly and carries a toothpick.

That's bull ****. Obama told congress he didn't need them in Libya and proceeded to abuse the UN resolution for use of force to protect civilians to overthrow the Libyan government. THAT pissed off China and Russia which both vowed not to let the same thing happen in Syria. They both made good on their word blocking all attempts at the UN to use force in Syria. It might appear that both China and Russia are fed up with America's bull ****. And the incident with the Russian ship off the coast of England and this deployment of the Chinese navy may not be a coincident. Just remember, a conflict with one or both of these states won't be anything like what the Pentagon has been doing the last 40-50 years.