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Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

It amazes me that anyone at all admires this man. He is so predictable. Funny thing is, I don't hear a lot of people in this country wishing we had a leader like him any more. (We may have one come January though.)
 
Oftencold said:
It amazes me that anyone at all admires this man. He is so predictable. Funny thing is, I don't hear a lot of people in this country wishing we had a leader like him any more. (We may have one come January though.)
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Well he,s primarily admired because despite his many faults he is making a possitive difference by giving people access to health care and education when previously they had none, reducing poverty rates etc. I dislike the regimes he,s building alliances with and find his meglomania somewhat disturbing and extreamly annoying. However the fact of the matter is that he represents an alternative to the neoliberal economic model thats been forced on the continent, primarily through violence, and is evidently not working.
 
Neither does rampant Marxism.
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He is not a Marxist, he is a petit-bourgeois populist acting as a safety valve for capitalism in Venezuela and South America in general.

he represents an alternative to the neoliberal economic model thats been forced on the continent
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This "alternative" is actually what is perpetuating the status quo and preventing any real change, i.e. the overthrow of capitalism in Venezuela/South America.
 

Well look at the stats. Try comparing Venezuela to a south american country thats relatively free market such as Peru or Brazil and you will see what i mean. Im not so much concerned about whether his policys are overthrowing capitalism or not as much as whether or not they are working.
 
In your comparison, you might want look at the the oil factor. :roll:
 

Working in what sense? They are certainly working to stem the revolutionary tide that has been brewing on the continent for the past few decades. This is of course until his "reforms" fail, which they inevitably will, considering the fact that they are governed by oil prices, which are doing terribly right now, and that they are the first things done away with during a crisis in capitalism.

So if by "working" you mean temporarily letting off some steam and containing the revolutionary sentiment before another plunge into poverty, corruption and violence then you would be right.
 
TOJ said:
In your comparison, you might want look at the the oil factor. :roll:
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I agree that the oil helps but I dont think its soley a case of what the resources are as much as how they are distributed. Peru has tremendous natural resources but ordinary Peruvians are seeing none of it.
 
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Well like i say look at things like literacy, poverty rates, infant mortality etc. The improvements are pretty conclusive evidence of the reforms having worked as far as i can see. I would imagine most Venuzuleans would be more concerned with whether or not there kids can go to school or access health care then whether or not capatalism gets overthrown. I take your point about the oil though. As regards "containing revolutionary sentiment" does that mean that you belive that by making things better Chavez is making the overthrow of capatalism less likely? Isnt that effectively saying that its better for things to get worse?
 

You're missing the entire point of my post. What you consider as "works" I consider to be a temporary measure to stem the tide of discontent within the country. What I'm saying, and I'm repeating myself here, is that these changes will inevitably end and will "bring about another plunge into poverty, corruption and violence." In other words, these measures are inevitably doomed to fail because they exist within a capitalist framework.

A very good example of this is Allende, who did much of what Chavez is doing right now. While it's not guaranteed that the movement in Venezuela will end with a coup, what is inevitable is that it will end somehow.

As regards "containing revolutionary sentiment" does that mean that you belive that by making things better Chavez is making the overthrow of capatalism less likely?
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By offering temporary programs and tossing breadcrumbs to the people he is staving off revolution, yes.

Isnt that effectively saying that its better for things to get worse?
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No, it is better for a group of class conscious Venezuelans to stand up and convince their brothers and sisters that all they are getting are breadcrumbs, and that eventually they will no longer even get that, unless they take the whole loaf for themselves (wow, lame analogy, but it totally worked).

What is missing is a mass workers movement in Venezuela to fight the opportunists and economists.
 

Well i guess tempory measures are better then no measures. Also how is whats happening in Venuzuela at present not a mass movement?
 
jujuman13 said:
Link
Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance

Rampant consumerism will not lead to any nations wealth.
Comments?
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I'd love to see the answer to Kandahar's comments. But that stated, this is the beginning of the end for Venezuela; inflation is ramping up, businesses are pulling out and this latest Communist action will send a message to the world's businesses; you're not welcome to come here to create jobs and opportunity.

Consumerism and private property rights are imperative to a growing economy. In the long run, even WITH Venezuela’s oil revenues, they will begin to look like Zimbabwe. Communists and Dictators always destroy their economies; then they look to their last resort to keep power which is by brutally holding down dissention and using the military to maintain order.

No one can see this as a GOOD thing; at least no one with a brain.
 
Well i guess tempory measures are better then no measures.
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And bourgeois democracy is better than bourgeois dictatorship. That doesn't imply that we should be apologists for bourgeois rule.

Also how is whats happening in Venuzuela at present not a mass movement?
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It is, but it isn't a mass revolutionary movement of class conscious workers. They have certainly developed a lot throughout Chavez's time in office, and have benefitted from it to the extent that the Bolivarian movement has gotten many more into political and economic struggles than would have been if he didn't take office. However, with Chavez attempting to centralize authority of the movement through the PSUV and denunciations of groups not aligned with the PSUV as "reactionary" (even after the PSUV expels comrades that criticize Chavez), the movement has been at an important intersection. We'll see which direction it goes.


PSUV is not Communist.


What is "Communism"? How do you reconcile this nonsenical belief with the belief that the USSR had one of the fastest growing economies ever?
 
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