Chauvin case decision aftermath could get very ugly

[NatMorton]

What you cant prove from what we see is that if left completely alone, Floyd would have died at that exact same time from the drugs in his system.

You’re missing the point. A) It’s not up to me to prove anything. B) More importantly, it’s not up to Chauvin’s defense to prove anything. It is the prosecution that must prove its case.

In other words, the defense doesn’t need to prove Floyd died from an overdose, or prove he would have died from one had he been left alone. They just have to make a reasonable case that he might have died from an overdose.

 

[NatMorton]

Already did. Please follow the thread before responding

#31

What passage in that cite do you think supports your assertion?

 

[AGENT J]

Your post is nonsense.

LMAO typical failed deflection but yet he still destroyer your post and it's hilarious watching you deny it.

 

[NatMorton]

Question. Can a fentanyl overdose be treated?

If he collapsed, and 911 was called, was there anything that could save his life?

What you completely and utterly miss is that Chauvins actions prevented basic life support.
Not only did his actions prevent baslic life support, they cut off his air supply - the opposite of basic life support.

But of course, the knee on the neck of FLoyd was the primary cause of death. Thgge other things just made it a smidge easier.

It depends what they ultimately decide to charge him with. If the neck pressure can’t be proven to be the cause of death beyond a reasonable doubt, then I think we’re talking manslaughter and not murder two, and then only if it can be proven the Chauvin should have noticed his suspect was coding out (which is a much stronger argument, IMO.)

 

[Grand Mal]

I shudder to think about the public reaction should this come to pass, but doesn't a fatal level of Fentanyl in Floyd's system create the reasonable doubt needed to acquit?

New court docs say George Floyd had "fatal level" of fentanyl in his system

Defense attorneys argue drug overdose and pre-existing health conditions caused Floyd's death.

www.kare11.com

The whole world saw the video.
If Chauvin had knelt on a dog's neck for eight minutes, hearing it whimper and feeling it twitch until it finally died, nobody would be trying to contrive excuses for him. The outrage would be universal. But since it was a black man some way has to be found to make it the black man's fault.

 

[NatMorton]

Good luck finding an unbiased jury. Billions of dollars of riot damage, deaths and injuries, who will want another one. The riots have to be justified so that civil unrest is justified in some twisted way. Floyd's death played beautifully for those that wanted America fundamentally transformed.

Unfortunately what you describe may come into play, but my hope is that enough people say eff those who would riot and seek to administer Chauvin's due process fairly.

 

[NatMorton]

LMAO typical failed deflection but yet he still destroyer your post and it's hilarious watching you deny it.

I'm pleased you're enjoying yourself, but your empty assertion means nothing to me.

 

[NatMorton]

The whole world saw the video.
If Chauvin had knelt on a dog's neck for eight minutes, hearing it whimper and feeling it twitch until it finally died, nobody would be trying to contrive excuses for him. The outrage would be universal. But since it was a black man some way has to be found to make it the black man's fault.

What's more important to you, Chauvin being given a fair trial or Chauvin being found guilty?

For me, it's unquestionably the former.

 

[Grand Mal]

What's more important to you, Chauvin being given a fair trial or Chauvin being found guilty?

For me, it's unquestionably the former.

If George Floyd was dying of a drug overdose does that excuse those cops? Do you see any reason that would excuse those cops?
Chauvin is guilty as hell. We all saw it. There's nothing that can be worded in such a way that he sounds not guilty. And not just him. The other cops kneeling on Floyd- how many altogether, three I think- share his guilt. If Floyd was dying of a drug overdose at the time it makes their crime worse.

 

[Buckeyes85]

If George Floyd was dying of a drug overdose does that excuse those cops? Do you see any reason that would excuse those cops?
Chauvin is guilty as hell. We all saw it. There's nothing that can be worded in such a way that he sounds not guilty. And not just him. The other cops kneeling on Floyd- how many altogether, three I think- share his guilt. If Floyd was dying of a drug overdose at the time it makes their crime worse.

I'm relatively positive no expert will offer testimony at trial that Floyd was in reality dying of an overdose, i.e. would have died whether Chauvin knelt on him for 9 minutes or not. I think that's a non starter. The only question pending was whether a potentially lethal amount of fentanyl in Floyd's body, if proven, is enough to create reasonable doubt. Its a fair question even though I have seen nothing to dissuade me personally from my belief that Floyd's death was directly caused by Chauvin's actions, and his accomplices.
But the defense only needs one person on the jury that thinks that fentanyl plausibly could have killed Floyd to get, at a minimum, a hung jury.

 

[Excast]

What's more important to you, Chauvin being given a fair trial or Chauvin being found guilty?

For me, it's unquestionably the former.

Your goal appears to be looking for reasons not to hold a white man accountable for kneeling on a black man's neck for almost 10 minutes over the pettiest of crimes.

AS to your motivations for said goal? I guess that is up for each of us to judge on our own.

 

[Grand Mal]

I'm relatively positive no expert will offer testimony at trial that Floyd was in reality dying of an overdose, i.e. would have died whether Chauvin knelt on him for 9 minutes or not. I think that's a non starter. The only question pending was whether a potentially lethal amount of fentanyl in Floyd's body, if proven, is enough to create reasonable doubt. Its a fair question even though I have seen nothing to dissuade me personally from my belief that Floyd's death was directly caused by Chauvin's actions, and his accomplices.
But the defense only needs one person on the jury that thinks that fentanyl plausibly could have killed Floyd to get, at a minimum, a hung jury.

I don't see any defense there at all. If Floyd died of an overdose three cops knelt on him while he was dying, for nearly ten minutes. That's a long time. If he didn't die of an overdose he was killed by the cops. Either way the cops are guilty as hell.
Unless the defense is that if the cops hadn't killed him the drug would have. Is that what they're saying?

 

[bullseyelqcs]

What's more important to you, Chauvin being given a fair trial or Chauvin being found guilty?

For me, it's unquestionably the former.

Look, Ill be honest with you.

I think there is a better than average chance he gets off. I think they overcharged. Had they gone with manslaughter, it would be a way easier case to prove, since intent isnt required for that. I dont think he showed up with the intent to kill Floyd, but I also dont think he cared if his actions led to the death of the suspect either.

 

[NatMorton]

If George Floyd was dying of a drug overdose does that excuse those cops? Do you see any reason that would excuse those cops?
Chauvin is guilty as hell. We all saw it. There's nothing that can be worded in such a way that he sounds not guilty. And not just him. The other cops kneeling on Floyd- how many altogether, three I think- share his guilt. If Floyd was dying of a drug overdose at the time it makes their crime worse.

If you're asking me does it excuse the cops of any wrongdoing surrounding this event, my answer is no. But if you're asking does it mean a murder-two charge can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, I think the answer might be yes.

 

[NatMorton]

Your goal appears to be looking for reasons not to hold a white man accountable for kneeling on a black man's neck for almost 10 minutes over the pettiest of crimes.

AS to your motivations for said goal? I guess that is up for each of us to judge on our own.

Typical.

 

[NatMorton]

Look, Ill be honest with you.

I think there is a better than average chance he gets off. I think they overcharged. Had they gone with manslaughter, it would be a way easier case to prove, since intent isnt required for that. I dont think he showed up with the intent to kill Floyd, but I also dont think he cared if his actions led to the death of the suspect either.

We may be in full agreement.

 

[lwf]

I shudder to think about the public reaction should this come to pass, but doesn't a fatal level of Fentanyl in Floyd's system create the reasonable doubt needed to acquit?

New court docs say George Floyd had "fatal level" of fentanyl in his system

Defense attorneys argue drug overdose and pre-existing health conditions caused Floyd's death.

www.kare11.com

If he had simply died in police custody after a normal arrest, then yes. Dying while someone is kneeling on your neck? Not so much.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Your goal appears to be looking for reasons not to hold a white man accountable for kneeling on a black man's neck for almost 10 minutes over the pettiest of crimes.

AS to your motivations for said goal? I guess that is up for each of us to judge on our own.

While I agree with the intent of your post, I think you may not be looking at this completely objectively.

Nats not making excuses....hes being a realist about it. They MAY have overcharged Chauvin. By doing so, the prosecution has now cornered themselves into having to prove there was actual intent from the beginning, which is going to be hard to do. Had they gone with manslaughter, the charge would be judged based on the "but for this situation" premise and not "he went in with the intent to kill" premise.

Case in point.....OJ didnt kill his wife. He paid someone to do it. Conspiracy to commit murder carries the same 25 to life penalty as actually killing someone would. Had they charged him with that instead of being hell bent on putting the knife in his hand, they probably would have gotten a conviction.

I fear the same thing may happen in this case. He caused a death.....but Im not sure it can be proven he murdered someone.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

If he had simply died in police custody after a normal arrest, then yes. Dying while someone is kneeling on your neck? Not so much.

You are 100% correct....but given the leeway we give officers, proving murder is going to be quite the needle to thread.

Manslaughter would have been a more appropriate and provable charge, IMHO.

 

[NatMorton]

If he had simply died in police custody after a normal arrest, then yes. Dying while someone is kneeling on your neck? Not so much.

It makes a huge difference. If Chauvin was following approved procedure with that hold, it's not murder-two, and it may not even be second-degree manslaughter.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

It makes a huge difference. If Chauvin was following approved procedure with that hold, it's not murder-two, and it may not even be second-degree manslaughter.

I believe the chief came out and stated that what he did was not approved procedure.

But that begs a question.....even if it was approved, if its determined to be a dangerous tactic in hindsight, could one be held liable for using it anyway? Legit question....I really dont know....

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I shudder to think about the public reaction should this come to pass, but doesn't a fatal level of Fentanyl in Floyd's system create the reasonable doubt needed to acquit?

New court docs say George Floyd had "fatal level" of fentanyl in his system

Defense attorneys argue drug overdose and pre-existing health conditions caused Floyd's death.

www.kare11.com

No, it doesn’t.

The cause of Floyd’s death comes down to a simple question; If not for Chauvin’s actions, would Floyd have died on May 25th, 2020?

From every credible source, including the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, the answer is no.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

No, it doesn’t.

The cause of Floyd’s death comes down to a simple question; If not for Chauvin’s actions, would Floyd have died on May 25th, 2020?

From every credible source, including the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, the answer is no.

All true.

The question being posed here is this.....does that inherently mean a murder happened?

Theres a reason manslaughter is on the books alongside murder.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

All true.

The question being posed here is this.....does that inherently mean a murder happened?

Theres a reason manslaughter is on the books alongside murder.

Floyd’s death was an unlawful killing. There is no valid argument otherwise.

Whether it falls under MN murder statues, or manslaughter statues is for those in charge of Chauvin’s prosecution to determine.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

 

[KLATTU]

We've heard from two ME's .
We have yet to heare form the defense's ME.

If you watch crime show tv, you are very aware that an ME's opinion is very easy to buy.
It then comes down to which one is more believable to a jury.