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Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:823:852:1124:1449]

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Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

The whole list. . It's not just multiple witnesses describing the same event within the towers, but one after the next talking about a wide variety of explosions throughout.

If you, and others, hadn't shown an interest in avoiding the clip altogether, I'd put it up again and say start at the start and work through to the end.

It's your claims getting called into question by these statements... not my claims to defend.

okay, bring up 5 examples that you want to start with from the video. All you need to do is link to the time in the video, and provide a brief summary of why you think it supports your conclusions. If you do that, I'll provide an imterpretation backed with supporting evidence.

After that, you can bring up 5 more, and so on and so on. You can choose which instances you think best support your argument, and I will address them individually. I will also set up a means to respond succintly without making the responses the type that are tl;dr
 
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Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Another strawman...

You made and others made the claim, I pointed out the eyewitnesses that conflict with the claim, and challenge you to defend your claim in light of those witnesses.

Ummmm, no.

I and others made what claim? When and where did you point out which witnesses conflict with what claim?

Could you be just a bit more ambiguous?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

The whole list. . It's not just multiple witnesses describing the same event within the towers, but one after the next talking about a wide variety of explosions throughout.

If you, and others, hadn't shown an interest in avoiding the clip altogether, I'd put it up again and say start at the start and work through to the end.

It's your claims getting called into question by these statements... not my claims to defend.

Where is the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that corroborates their statements?

Where is the BLAST consistent with explosives?

Where is the OVERPRESSURE consistent with explosives?

Where is the COLLATERAL DAMAGE one would see with explosives?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

okay, bring up 5 examples that you want to start with from the video. All you need to do is link to the time in the video, and provide a brief summary of why you think it supports your conclusions. If you do that, I'll provide an imterpretation backed with supporting evidence.

After that, you can bring up 5 more, and so on and so on. You can choose which instances you think best support your argument, and I will address them individually. I will also set up a means to respond succintly without making the responses the type that are tl;dr
Start with the first 5, then when you are done go through the next 5, etc...

Remember, it's not me playing games over this. I've been straight forward "hey, what about what these people say?", then the debunkers come back with "I don't have to hear what they have to say because (insert cop out here)"
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Start with the first 5, then when you are done go through the next 5, etc...

Remember, it's not me playing games over this. I've been straight forward "hey, what about what these people say?", then the debunkers come back with "I don't have to hear what they have to say because (insert cop out here)"

So, you have no one in particular......

Evasion noted.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Repeated:

Where is the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that corroborates their statements?

Where is the BLAST consistent with explosives?

Where is the OVERPRESSURE consistent with explosives?

Where is the COLLATERAL DAMAGE one would see with explosives?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Start with the first 5, then when you are done go through the next 5, etc...

Remember, it's not me playing games over this. I've been straight forward "hey, what about what these people say?", then the debunkers come back with "I don't have to hear what they have to say because (insert cop out here)"

Well you are playing games because you refuse to even support your own claims, trying to get others to do your thinking for you - as evidenced above. Remember when I kept asking you over and over which of the witnesses on your 2 hour video heard explosives and when you finally answered it was with a blanket claim of "all of them"? Both Kanzaki and I have shown specific examples from that video where this claim is simply not true yet you are still sticking with the 'all of them heard explosives but I can't prove it so you do my work for me and prove me wrong' routine.

Why is it so difficult for you to make an explicit claim (there was an explosion at __ time in __ place) and back it up with witness accounts (person __ said they say/heard ___ at place __ at ___ time) and back that up with physical evidence, then form a conclusion as to what that means?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Start with the first 5, then when you are done go through the next 5, etc...
Okay, you've chosen the first examples you want covered. I need two things from you now:

A) The video link again please.
B) I want you to detail me on how you think those first 5 support your conclusion.

Provide those two items and I'll address your concerns. Then you can select the next 5 and we will move forward.

Remember, it's not me playing games over this. I've been straight forward "hey, what about what these people say?"
We will see if you're being truthful about this. Simply do me the favor of explaining how you came to the conclusion that they support the end result of "CD". Remember, I'm arguing against your conclusions, so I need to know more precisely how you are coming to the conclusion that the witness examples support it. You've completed one of my two requests to start the discussion. I need the 2nd request completed if you want me to dedicate time to it.

then the debunkers come back with "I don't have to hear what they have to say because (insert cop out here)"
Then consider this your opportunity to get what you're asking for. I'm only asking of two conditions to the response. I believe they're more than accommodating. I'm volunteering to take time out of my vacation to write a detailed, specific summary to accommodate your request, so I request a little foundation work so we can get started appropriately.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Well you are playing games because you refuse to even support your own claims, trying to get others to do your thinking for you - as evidenced above. Remember when I kept asking you over and over which of the witnesses on your 2 hour video heard explosives and when you finally answered it was with a blanket claim of "all of them"? Both Kanzaki and I have shown specific examples from that video where this claim is simply not true yet you are still sticking with the 'all of them heard explosives but I can't prove it so you do my work for me and prove me wrong' routine.

Just to clarify, I'm allowing him to choose what he wants to start with, I have no problem with that. I'm NOT sitting through 2 hours of video to have a ****'ing (excuse my french) one-liner response thrown at me however. If he wants to be arbitrary that IS his call, but I'll be doing this in sections if I do it at all. AND as I've outlined he needs to explain how he thinks they support his conclusions before I'll indulge in a 2 hour long response to his satisfaction on each piece. Fair is fair, if I'm going to spend substantial time on a response he needs to be specific in how he thinks the witnesses support him. If he decides there's no justification to spend 15 or 20 minutes to write short paragraph, then I clearly see no justification to spend an hour setting up a response, let alone 2 hours to watch video footage which will be wasted in 5 to 10 minutes of garbage posts.

ETA: I'm not posting to read as negative, just saying I'm willing to accommodate his request in small doses at a time, and continue it IF it progresses. But since most of the criticisms of the "reports of explosions = explosives" argument is premised on a person's interpretation of the testimony and corroborating evidence, Bcman needs to outline his interpretation for a discussion to hold any value.
 
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Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Since it may take weeks for Bman to comply with a simple request to re-post the link to his witnesses heard explosions video, I believe this is it:



The very first clip debunks his false global generalization that ALL of the witnesses heard bombs and I addressed that first clip in a different thread way, way back.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Well you are playing games because you refuse to even support your own claims, trying to get others to do your thinking for you - as evidenced above. Remember when I kept asking you over and over which of the witnesses on your 2 hour video heard explosives and when you finally answered it was with a blanket claim of "all of them"? Both Kanzaki and I have shown specific examples from that video where this claim is simply not true yet you are still sticking with the 'all of them heard explosives but I can't prove it so you do my work for me and prove me wrong' routine.

Why is it so difficult for you to make an explicit claim (there was an explosion at __ time in __ place) and back it up with witness accounts (person __ said they say/heard ___ at place __ at ___ time) and back that up with physical evidence, then form a conclusion as to what that means?

You STILL don't get it you are the one making claims... I put that up because it calls into question your claims, and the only claims I've made about it beyond that is to point out how you won't defend your claims.


Okay, you've chosen the first examples you want covered. I need two things from you now:

A) The video link again please.
B) I want you to detail me on how you think those first 5 support your conclusion.

Provide those two items and I'll address your concerns. Then you can select the next 5 and we will move forward.


We will see if you're being truthful about this. Simply do me the favor of explaining how you came to the conclusion that they support the end result of "CD". Remember, I'm arguing against your conclusions, so I need to know more precisely how you are coming to the conclusion that the witness examples support it. You've completed one of my two requests to start the discussion. I need the 2nd request completed if you want me to dedicate time to it.


Then consider this your opportunity to get what you're asking for. I'm only asking of two conditions to the response. I believe they're more than accommodating. I'm volunteering to take time out of my vacation to write a detailed, specific summary to accommodate your request, so I request a little foundation work so we can get started appropriately.

You get A) 9/11 WTC Explosive Eyewitness Evidence.: http://youtu.be/tH1Xdcssw4A

As for b) you are the ones that made claims that there was no evidence for explosives, so, it's on you to defend that claim from the counter claims of eyewitnesses. Seriously, after probably over 100 posts, the best it's been addressed was to concede that there were in fact eyewitnesses that described explosions, and even getting that far has been like pulling teeth.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Just to clarify, I'm allowing him to choose what he wants to start with, I have no problem with that. I'm NOT sitting through 2 hours of video to have a ****'ing (excuse my french) one-liner response thrown at me however. If he wants to be arbitrary that IS his call, but I'll be doing this in sections if I do it at all. AND as I've outlined he needs to explain how he thinks they support his conclusions before I'll indulge in a 2 hour long response to his satisfaction on each piece. Fair is fair, if I'm going to spend substantial time on a response he needs to be specific in how he thinks the witnesses support him. If he decides there's no justification to spend 15 or 20 minutes to write short paragraph, then I clearly see no justification to spend an hour setting up a response, let alone 2 hours to watch video footage which will be wasted in 5 to 10 minutes of garbage posts.

ETA: I'm not posting to read as negative, just saying I'm willing to accommodate his request in small doses at a time, and continue it IF it progresses. But since most of the criticisms of the "reports of explosions = explosives" argument is premised on a person's interpretation of the testimony and corroborating evidence, Bcman needs to outline his interpretation for a discussion to hold any value.

No, you need to accept that when you make claims that you occasionally have to defend them when evidence to the contrary is presented.

Why do you think I'm not so eager to go through, defend your claims for you and then you come back with some one liner that is not even realistic or relevant?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

You STILL don't get it you are the one making claims... I put that up because it calls into question your claims, and the only claims I've made about it beyond that is to point out how you won't defend your claims.

You get A) 9/11 WTC Explosive Eyewitness Evidence.: http://youtu.be/tH1Xdcssw4A

As for b) you are the ones that made claims that there was no evidence for explosives, so, it's on you to defend that claim from the counter claims of eyewitnesses. Seriously, after probably over 100 posts, the best it's been addressed was to concede that there were in fact eyewitnesses that described explosions, and even getting that far has been like pulling teeth.

EYEWITNESSES HEARD EXPLOSIONS - NO ONE IS ARGUING THEY DIDN'T.

Where is the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that corroborates their statements?

Where is the BLAST consistent with explosives?

Where is the OVERPRESSURE consistent with explosives?

Where is the COLLATERAL DAMAGE one would see with explosives?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

No, you need to accept that when you make claims that you occasionally have to defend them when evidence to the contrary is presented.

Why do you think I'm not so eager to go through, defend your claims for you and then you come back with some one liner that is not even realistic or relevant?

YOU are the one arguing EXPLOSIONS are indicative of EXPLOSIVES.

No one else.

It is YOUR claim.

Back up YOUR CLAIM.

Where is the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that corroborates their statements?

Where is the BLAST consistent with explosives?

Where is the OVERPRESSURE consistent with explosives?

Where is the COLLATERAL DAMAGE one would see with explosives?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

You get A) 9/11 WTC Explosive Eyewitness Evidence.: 9/11 WTC Explosive Eyewitness Evidence. - YouTube
Thank you and Mark F for the link. I have reviewed the first 5. I'll consider a response once you lived up to the 2nd request. If you find it so unreasonable as to refuse I'll simply withdraw my offer to spend hours upon hours of my time on each and every isolated incident since you can't be bothered to spend far less time to simply describe how the context under which you believe the witness testimony supports your argument.

No, you need to accept that when you make claims that you occasionally have to defend them when evidence to the contrary is presented.
I have no problem with this demand. But I need to know what you think about the individual cases you want me to sift through; hence my request. You apparently forget my criticisms are directed not at the witness remarks, but your conclusions based on your interpretation of them. I don't want you claiming I took you out of context or anything.

Why do you think I'm not so eager to go through, defend your claims for you
Firstly... why do you think I suggested 5 at a time? Do you expect either of us to waste 2 hours on a video... Do you seriously think you'll realistically plan on reading a 30-post mega response if I spent the tens of hours to put it together? Don't think so. Can you enlighten me on how writing a couple of sentences on each claim is so difficult? I'll be spending considerably more time than that to properly give you a reasoned response.

Secondly, I'm not asking you to defend my argument, I'm asking you to outline how you rationalized the eye witness testimony to mean explosives? Did you use anything at all to corroborate them for example? You know, the whole not guessing and avoiding confusion thing.... I thought you considered that important.
 
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Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Seriously, after probably over 100 posts, the best it's been addressed was to concede that there were in fact eyewitnesses that described explosions, and even getting that far has been like pulling teeth.

Nothing to "concede" when some of the alternatives included burning cars, falling debris (small and large), fires ignited on other buildings, people who were inside the building near the plane impacts (which were real explosions) for example. Or people who were inside the WTC 1 lobby when tower 2 collapsed. Some of those qualify as context for the remarks made by the witnesses, whom you suggest heard explosives instead.

The only thing that's like pulling teeth for you - I suspect - is getting someone to agree that the witnesses heard explosives in every single video recording and incident of testimony. Now, when you make your references to witness testimony absolutist - in the sense that you think they all are pointing to some kind of explosive device, you make that rather easy to falsify.
 
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Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Thank you and Mark F for the link. I have reviewed the first 5. I'll consider a response once you lived up to the 2nd request. If you find it so unreasonable as to refuse I'll simply withdraw my offer to spend hours upon hours of my time on each and every isolated incident since you can't be bothered to spend far less time to simply describe how the context under which you believe the witness testimony supports your argument.


I have no problem with this demand. But I need to know what you think about the individual cases you want me to sift through; hence my request. You apparently forget my criticisms are directed not at the witness remarks, but your conclusions based on your interpretation of them. I don't want you claiming I took you out of context or anything.


Firstly... why do you think I suggested 5 at a time? Do you expect either of us to waste 2 hours on a video... Do you seriously think you'll realistically plan on reading a 30-post mega response if I spent the tens of hours to put it together? Don't think so. Can you enlighten me on how writing a couple of sentences on each claim is so difficult? I'll be spending considerably more time than that to properly give you a reasoned response.

Secondly, I'm not asking you to defend my argument, I'm asking you to outline how you rationalized the eye witness testimony to mean explosives? Did you use anything at all to corroborate them for example? You know, the whole not guessing and avoiding confusion thing.... I thought you considered that important.
Do you understand the concept of burden of proof?

You made claims, I put the eyewitnesses out there because it calls into question those claims, and now you are backing out of defending your claim with even the 5 that YOU suggested.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Do you understand the concept of burden of proof?
I do.

You made claims,
Did he make a claim? Identify his claim - link and/or direct quote. If he did I will check the burden of proof.

AND support your "burden of proof" statement if you are right.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Nothing to "concede" when some of the alternatives included burning cars, falling debris (small and large), fires ignited on other buildings, people who were inside the building near the plane impacts (which were real explosions) for example. Or people who were inside the WTC 1 lobby when tower 2 collapsed. Some of those qualify as context for the remarks made by the witnesses, whom you suggest heard explosives instead.

The only thing that's like pulling teeth for you - I suspect - is getting someone to agree that the witnesses heard explosives in every single video recording and incident of testimony. Now, when you make your references to witness testimony absolutist - in the sense that you think they all are pointing to some kind of explosive device, you make that rather easy to falsify.

Again with the strawmen... Btw, I've never made any of these claims you are trying to put in my mouth, I'm trying to get you to defend your claims.

So, is that what you are going to claim as justification for the first 5?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Again with the strawmen... Btw, I've never made any of these claims you are trying to put in my mouth, I'm trying to get you to defend your claims.

So, is that what you are going to claim as justification for the first 5?
Why not identify the original claim and who made it? The claim which started this set of discussions. Save a lot of going round in circles?
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

I do.

Did he make a claim? Identify his claim - link and/or direct quote. If he did I will check the burden of proof.

AND support your "burden of proof" statement if you are right.

Yes, he, and everyone else has made claims of no evidence for explosives. The eyewitness accounts calls that claim into question... and now you all want me to prove your claims, rather than defending your claims in the face of the witness testimony.

Stop playing dumb, it doesn't suit you as much as the other debunkers.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

You STILL don't get it you are the one making claims... I put that up because it calls into question your claims, and the only claims I've made about it beyond that is to point out how you won't defend your claims.

Ummmmm, :no:

The commonly accepted narrative, the one with the overwhelming support of professional opinion is that high-speed aircraft impact + fire + time + gravity = collapse. That is the null hypothesis. YOU are the one claiming that hypothesis is incorrect. It is your claim another mechanism was involved and it is your claim that is up for discussion in this thread which is after all titled : Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE? . Therefore your burden of proof to support your claim - or abandon it.

Your choice.

As for b) you are the ones that made claims that there was no evidence for explosives, so, it's on you to defend that claim from the counter claims of eyewitnesses. Seriously, after probably over 100 posts, the best it's been addressed was to concede that there were in fact eyewitnesses that described explosions, and even getting that far has been like pulling teeth.

First off, the above is false and you know it. No one has ever disputed there were people who heard things that they described as sounding like explosions and you won't find a post where any of our regular debunker contributors state otherwise - so drop it already. The only disagreement has been over what that means; you taking the overly simplistic and completely literal approach of 'explosions must = explosives', the rest of us understanding the use of simile, the limitations of the English language and the necessity for corroboration of witness accounts (the least reliable form of evidence) with physical evidence.

At the risk of repeating myself, YOU are the one claiming explosives were used, contrary to overwhelming public and professional opinion and quite frankly against the preponderance of evidence supporting impact + fire + time + gravity. The thread is called: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE? specifically so you and others of similar opinion can present your claims and your evidence supporting said claims, not so you can run and hide behind reversed burden-of-proof, forcing others to do your thinking for you (because you either can't or won't - same difference).

And how is it exactly that any of us are expected to prove a negative? I might as well ask you to prove Unicorn's don't exist.

But of course, those of use who accept impact + fire + time + gravity = collapse have volumes of documentation and the overwhelming consensus of professional opinion on our side, none of which has ever been falsified. That makes our job pretty easy.

OTOH - Your entire case for bombs in the WTC to date can be summarized as:

1. Some witnesses heard things that sound like explosions - yet you won't even provide one "star witness" that best makes your case, telling the rest of us we have to do it for you (presumably because you can't)
2. A very brief period of free-fall of 7 WTC (but not the twins)
3. A tiny selection of videos in which faint rumbling can be heard which only you think sounds like explosions
4. Laterally projected multi-ton beams

Let me know if I missed anything else.

What is conspicuous from this list is all the things that should be there but aren't. Plus the complete lack of physical evidence, your consistent refusal to tie any of your witness accounts to any physical or even your video evidence, etc, etc, etc,...
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

and now you are backing out of defending your claim...
You apparently "forget":

=====================================
<snip>All you need to do is link to the time in the video, and provide a brief summary of why you think it supports your conclusions. If you do that, I'll provide an interpretation backed with supporting evidence.
=====================================

In other words, playing by your rules is contingent upon you agreeing to something that you refused to do. I made clear I would not indulge in your game if you showed no interest in accepting. So what exactly are you complaining about here again?

Did I not make myself clear somewhere about what I asked for?




...with even the 5 that YOU suggested.
Your short term memory is abysmal, or you're a terrible liar. Let's look at the original exchange:

=====================================
okay, bring up 5 examples that you want to start with from the video. <snip> After that, you can bring up 5 more, and so on and so on. You can choose which instances you think best support your argument, and I will address them individually. I will also set up a means to respond succintly without making the responses the type that are tl;dr

Your reply:
Start with the first 5, then when you are done go through the next 5, etc...

It appears to me that you - in fact decided where you wanted this to start. The balls in your court still. IF you oblige to the request for clarification I will - of course - fulfill my end of the agreement still. If you continue to refuse, then there's no reason for me to go out of my way for you, especially when the "contribution" I asked of you is so disproportionately less involved than what I am offering to do. You've now wasted several posts on me trying to avoid writing a few sentences in a single post... If you put as much effort into a small summary as you did into avoiding a simple request we'd have been well into this discussion several hours ago
 
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Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

@BmanMcfly
You do seem to have a lot of problems being truthful and answering two simple questions.

This is what I asked:
...Did he make a claim? Identify his claim - link and/or direct quote...

You respond with this:
Yes, he, and everyone else has made claims of no evidence for explosives....
So you repeat that HE has made a claim - answers half my question. I did not ask about "everyone else" - I don't see any vague "everyone else" taking part in this discussion. I asked that you "Identify his claim..." which you fail to do. Recall you asserted aspects of burden of proof - which you cannot honestly do unless you have identified what claim you are referring to AND who made it. Hoist by your own evasive petard there Bman. Then you make this dishonest statement:
... and now you all want me to prove your claims, rather than defending your claims in the face of the witness testimony.
Which is outright untruth. I haven't made a claim. You said "he" had and you have confirmed that "he" did make a claim but you decline to identify the claim. Nor have I asked you to prove any claim - certainly I have not asked you to prove a claim of mine which I have not made. I'll be generous and call it "vivid imagination" on your part. BUT it is deliberate untruth. WHY sink so low when I asked a simple question which you partially answered?

playing dumb, it doesn't suit you as much as the other debunkers.
I'm not playing dumb simply asking you to confirm who made a claim which you referred to but you decline to identify the claim.
 
Re: Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE?[W:852]

Ummmmm, :no:

The commonly accepted narrative, the one with the overwhelming support of professional opinion is that high-speed aircraft impact + fire + time + gravity = collapse. That is the null hypothesis. YOU are the one claiming that hypothesis is incorrect. It is your claim another mechanism was involved and it is your claim that is up for discussion in this thread which is after all titled : Challenge time again. EXPLOSIVES at WTC7. Got EVIDENCE? . Therefore your burden of proof to support your claim - or abandon it.

Your choice.

You make the claim, I must defend your claim. That is called reversing the burden of proof.

Especially when I supplied the evidence that calls your claim into question... so, not only have you NOT supported your naked assertions of claims, when those claims are called into question, you won't defend them...

The rest of the Gish is along the same lines... throw in some more strawmen and other fallacies that only our local logic master could approve of and that's it.
 
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