Caught in a political echo chamber? Listening to the opposition can make partisanship even worse

[exoplanet]

Of course, we've known for a while that cognitive dissonance reinforces held beliefs. Unless you approach opposing views with an open frame of mind, you're just going to end up reinforcing your own position.

Given that, would you say that this forum has made you more or less open minded?

 

[Exquisitor]

You can't change views in a tweet. The study is interesting but predictable. Online the best you can do is point out hypocrisy and logical flaws.

You can't teach a pig to sing but you can show a pig that he can't sing.

I used to chant the Nrsingha Kavacha in the forest but rarely the regular Nrsingha pranams, but the pig must have been listening to the morning program in the valley because as I lay on the trail resting a couple hundred feet from my camp morning came and the pig was between me and my camp and I thought to chant the Nrsingha pranam and out of the pigs throat came, "Namaste nara Singhia."

 

[spud_meister]

Given that, would you say that this forum has made you more or less open minded?

Definitely more, I understand opposing viewpoints a lot better than I used to, and have changed my opinions based on finding opposing arguments more valid that what I assumed.

 

[Exquisitor]

There's legitimate criticism of media bias but what has happened is that the criticism has morphed into delegitimization of all fact based journalism. If I say "well here are the facts, this is what's going on", Trump supporters will say "well we don't believe it from your source." We are now officially in a post-truth world and in that post-truth world we get Donald Trump as president of the United States.

What facts? Trump's OK except for his tax reform which lowers his rating to two thumbs down.

 

[HumblePi]

What facts? Trump's OK except for his tax reform which lowers his rating to two thumbs down.

There's so much but I'll start with only one. He denied paying off Stormy Daniels or Karen McDougal. That was proven a lie by his own words on audio and on AF1 replying to a reporter.

“Obamacare is dead, it is gone.”
The Affordable Care Act is not imploding and is expected to remain stable for the foreseeable future, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

“The great state of Tennessee where half the state already has no insurance carrier”
This is false. All eight of the Tennessee's rating areas have at least one insurance carrier and three of them have two carriers.

“We have the all-time record for the biggest increase in the stock market.”
The increase in the Dow Jones Industrial Average in Trump's first 100 days is impressive -- a five percent gain. But George H.W. Bush had a 7.7 percent gain in his first 100 days, so Trump does not have the record. Moreover, what counts in the long run is the state of the economy at the end of a term, as Bush (who lost re-election) could tell Trump.

NATO countries “have begun to increase their contribution by billions of dollars.”
Long before Trump started complaining about NATO, members had committed to having defense spending account for two percent of each nation's gross domestic product by 2024.

“We are keeping one promise after another.”
The Fact Checker's Trump Promise Tracker shows that of Trump's 100-day promises, he had kept six, broken five and taken no action on more than half of his promises.

I can keep going all night long but I'll stop there (for now)

 

[Zyphlin]

That's the backfire effect. It guarantees that if you want to convince somebody that their beliefs are incorrect, giving them opposing facts isn't the way to do it.

This is especially true when you're basically just exposing them to the craziest of versions of the "other side".

The social media echo chambers usually contain your most extreme, hyper partisan, aggressive, hateful, or rhetoric heavy types of people and news for a particular side. So basically you're not exposing them often to a rational, level headed, persuasive version of the other side to potentially cause them to think, but rather giving them things that feed into their preconceived caricatures of the other side and which are meant to not be persuasive but rather "preach to the choir".


Taking it a different way....

You have two people, one who watches only soccer and one who watches only football. They generally have disdain for the other sport and for the people who watch the other sport.

You're going to probably do better introducing the Football player into "soccer" by putting him with people who will actually take the time to explain the game, it's rules, it's teams and players, and some of the nuances as well as showing them why certain things are exciting or important. If you just throw them into the middle of a bunch of soccer hooligans cheering for their teams and cursing about how they don't get any coverage compared to football in the US and whooping and hollaring without any attempt to explain the game to the person, then the guy is probably going to continue to just think it's a stupid silly game with idiot fans that's boring as ****.

Is the first way likely going to truly win you new fans every time? No, but it at least is going to give you a chance by actually being a welcoming experience. Just being thrown to the wolves isn't. Same goes with just throwing people into the opposite sides echo chamber; it's not going to open minds, it's going to just provide fodder for them to reinforce their preconceived negative views. Especially when they're the type of person that would get sucked into a social media echo chamber to begin with.

 

[exoplanet]

Definitely more, I understand opposing viewpoints a lot better than I used to, and have changed my opinions based on finding opposing arguments more valid that what I assumed.

Well, that's heartening.

 

[Exquisitor]

There's so much but I'll start with only one. He denied paying off Stormy Daniels or Karen McDougal. That was proven a lie by his own words on audio and on AF1 replying to a reporter.

“Obamacare is dead, it is gone.”
The Affordable Care Act is not imploding and is expected to remain stable for the foreseeable future, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

“The great state of Tennessee where half the state already has no insurance carrier”
This is false. All eight of the Tennessee's rating areas have at least one insurance carrier and three of them have two carriers.

“We have the all-time record for the biggest increase in the stock market.”
The increase in the Dow Jones Industrial Average in Trump's first 100 days is impressive -- a five percent gain. But George H.W. Bush had a 7.7 percent gain in his first 100 days, so Trump does not have the record. Moreover, what counts in the long run is the state of the economy at the end of a term, as Bush (who lost re-election) could tell Trump.

NATO countries “have begun to increase their contribution by billions of dollars.”
Long before Trump started complaining about NATO, members had committed to having defense spending account for two percent of each nation's gross domestic product by 2024.

“We are keeping one promise after another.”
The Fact Checker's Trump Promise Tracker shows that of Trump's 100-day promises, he had kept six, broken five and taken no action on more than half of his promises.

I can keep going all night long but I'll stop there (for now)

These are not facts this only shows that the President like every one before him practices speaking in the negative or in other words lies.

It shows the President is insecure and must establish a perspective which always supports him as in tribalism.

There is no fact; that undocumented suffer under Trump is a fact balanced with the fact that we must maintain secure borders or do like Clinton would.

Fact is that he's putting America first and world opinion is going to be a little ruffled.

Fact is that he's thrown out the baby with the bath water on the environment.

Fact that they've run the same tax bungle as Bush which didn't and won't work and will destroy the guts and growth of the Obama era.

Fact is he brought North Korea to the table and how successful this will be remains to be seen.

Fact is we're loosing Africa to China and they want India too.

Fact is that he's doing some business and trade deals and as a big boss knows how.

Fact is that he deals with Russia in the same way.

 

[PirateMk1]

Red (from the article):

• Political views are presumably conclusions based on sound/cogent arguments for them and that derive from a coherent set of principles.
  • With regard to the political views the current GOP party and its leader hold, which of them upon which they are acting derives from a sound/cogent arguments for them and that are coherent with regard to a set of equally coherent principles? None that I've heard aired in the past three years.
    • Note: I specifically note the GOP because they currently hold sway in two -- and likely soon, three -- of the three branches of the federal government and in most state-level governments. Were the Dems in power, I'd ask the same question of them.
• Why anyone would seek political input on a social media site like Twitter is beyond me. How, in 240 or fewer characters, is one supposed to get a full and clear picture of any political position and the best argument for it?

Its all in the name. Twitter. Those who use it profusely, twits. Some would say the CINC of the USA is a twit, as all those who follow and react to his tweeting. They may be on to something.

 

[PirateMk1]

Speaking only on a personal level, I have been a member of a forum for more than two years. It's a closed forum so there's never any trolling there. We are all non-Trumpers. We share a lot of information primarily breaking news, historical information about N. Korea, Syria, Turkey, Israel and of course, Russia. We're all up on the latest news. There is no fighting, no name calling, polite disagreement is extremely rare, but it's polite.

I left my comfort zone the past two days and joined four different political forums. I was a bit stunned at the anger, frustration, animosity and just plain evilness that I've seen, read and encountered in the past two days. It was more than I've experienced in two years. But, it's a learning experience for me. Hopefully I will correct inaccuracies, refute outright lies and hopefully be able to keep my head about it because it's not my style to attack but it is my impulse to fight back if I have to with someone that's ignorant. I'm not prejudice at all except for one thing, I can't tolerate stupid people.

You must have a mushy head. :2brickwal

 

[Cardinal]

This is especially true when you're basically just exposing them to the craziest of versions of the "other side".

The social media echo chambers usually contain your most extreme, hyper partisan, aggressive, hateful, or rhetoric heavy types of people and news for a particular side. So basically you're not exposing them often to a rational, level headed, persuasive version of the other side to potentially cause them to think, but rather giving them things that feed into their preconceived caricatures of the other side and which are meant to not be persuasive but rather "preach to the choir".


Taking it a different way....

You have two people, one who watches only soccer and one who watches only football. They generally have disdain for the other sport and for the people who watch the other sport.

You're going to probably do better introducing the Football player into "soccer" by putting him with people who will actually take the time to explain the game, it's rules, it's teams and players, and some of the nuances as well as showing them why certain things are exciting or important. If you just throw them into the middle of a bunch of soccer hooligans cheering for their teams and cursing about how they don't get any coverage compared to football in the US and whooping and hollaring without any attempt to explain the game to the person, then the guy is probably going to continue to just think it's a stupid silly game with idiot fans that's boring as ****.

Is the first way likely going to truly win you new fans every time? No, but it at least is going to give you a chance by actually being a welcoming experience. Just being thrown to the wolves isn't. Same goes with just throwing people into the opposite sides echo chamber; it's not going to open minds, it's going to just provide fodder for them to reinforce their preconceived negative views. Especially when they're the type of person that would get sucked into a social media echo chamber to begin with.

Fair point.

 

[Verax]

It is possible to pull your head out of your ass but it takes quite a bit of introspection and work. Unfortunately what you find will make you want to stick your head back in there.

 

[Acadia]

That's a gas-lighting statement if I've ever heard one. This is not true at all. Us 'liberals' are always willing to share the knowledge we have but usually Trump supporters don't want to acknowledge truth.

Typical, you're convinced your opinion is "truth".

 

[Mach]

Typical, you're convinced your opinion is "truth".

Interesting. You just told us your opinion above, that you appear to be convinced is true..while simultaneously complaining about HumblePi's belief that HIS opinion is true. Do you see the contradiction at play there?
=================

So to the panel, what are we supposed to do with this? It almost appears to be reasoning, but the way it's set up it excludes others from being correct based on a rule the author is simultaneously is breaking in order to make the claim.

This is an example of that same self-reinforcing loop alluded to in the OP. Every time someone appears to be claiming their opinion is "True" that the subject doesn't agree with...this just reinforces THEIR opinion that the problem with the opposition is they continuously believe their opinions are true.

A very elegant sort of self-contained example of what's discussed in the OP. The more opposition claims it's correct, the more resistant someone who believes this, may become. Self-reinforcing by design. It reminds me of viruses, or any remarkable disorder...they exist because of some mechanism that causes it to spiral out of control, and some form of "loop" is often at play. Like the over-eater who, once their body image becomes negative, gets depressed at that fact, and then self-medicates with eating...reinforcing the cycle that can then spiral out of control. That's a bit dramatic...but I think you get the idea. My guess is there are dozens of such self-reinforcing "belief systems" present in some of the loyalists minds, all working in tandem.

 

[HumblePi]

These are not facts this only shows that the President like every one before him practices speaking in the negative or in other words lies. This is false. More than 4,229 lies. On average, Trump lies 7.6 times a day. So your statement "like every one before him" is totally inaccurate.

It shows the President is insecure and must establish a perspective which always supports him as in tribalism. We expect the President of the United States to be truthful and true to his word. World leaders want to communicate with a 'secure', honest man, Trump is neither.

There is no fact; that undocumented suffer under Trump is a fact balanced with the fact that we must maintain secure borders or do like Clinton would. There's simply no 'balance' to more than 500 immigrant young children being being kidnapped from their parents and they're essentially lost in the bureaucratic red tape.

Fact is that he's putting America first and world opinion is going to be a little ruffled. Putting America first often left America alone. The U.S. is less admired, less respected and less feared than it needs to be, given how consequential a power we are. The U.S. marginalized itself from Mexico, a key partner in both trade deals, NAFTA and TPP. It also means the U.S. isolates itself from Latin America.

Fact is that he's thrown out the baby with the bath water on the environment. I'm not sure what you mean by throwing the baby out with the bath water. Scott Pruitt managed to reverse most of the EPA regulation meant to protect our environment but was not profitable for big companies. Coincidentally, every single cabinet secretary Trump chose to oversee his energy and environmental agenda, has ties to the fossil fuel industry.

Fact that they've run the same tax bungle as Bush which didn't and won't work and will destroy the guts and growth of the Obama era. This is also true. The 'tax bungle' as you refer to it started in 2002 with George Bush's tax cuts. Those eventually lead to the great depression of 2007-09.

Fact is he brought North Korea to the table and how successful this will be remains to be seen. Here's a fact. Every single U.S. President since Eisenhower has been invited to meet with the Kim regime in N. Korea. Trump didn't bring Kim Jong-un anywhere. What he did was provide this despotic dictator with propaganda to use for his people.

Fact is we're loosing Africa to China and they want India too. Again, I don't know what you're referring to here. "Losing Africa"? The U.S. does not own Africa, so how could we lose something we don't rule over?

Fact is that he's doing some business and trade deals and as a big boss knows how. I agree with Trump that international trade rules are unfair. Trump’s tariff-centric trade policies are a raw deal that won’t fix what’s broken about the global trading system. Higher tariffs on imported steel and aluminum will harm the automotive industry and construction, which are big employers.

Fact is that he deals with Russia in the same way. There's never been a president whose campaign was deeply connected to Russia. Even at his inauguration, some of the top Russian oligarchs/spies were given tickets and access to the ceremony. It's not normal to privately host two of Russia's top spies in the Oval Office without U.S. press present.

 

[Exquisitor]

These are not facts this only shows that the President like every one before him practices speaking in the negative or in other words lies. This is false. More than 4,229 lies. On average, Trump lies 7.6 times a day. So your statement "like every one before him" is totally inaccurate.

It shows the President is insecure and must establish a perspective which always supports him as in tribalism. We expect the President of the United States to be truthful and true to his word. World leaders want to communicate with a 'secure', honest man, Trump is neither.

There is no fact; that undocumented suffer under Trump is a fact balanced with the fact that we must maintain secure borders or do like Clinton would. There's simply no 'balance' to more than 500 immigrant young children being being kidnapped from their parents and they're essentially lost in the bureaucratic red tape.

Fact is that he's putting America first and world opinion is going to be a little ruffled. Putting America first often left America alone. The U.S. is less admired, less respected and less feared than it needs to be, given how consequential a power we are. The U.S. marginalized itself from Mexico, a key partner in both trade deals, NAFTA and TPP. It also means the U.S. isolates itself from Latin America.

Fact is that he's thrown out the baby with the bath water on the environment. I'm not sure what you mean by throwing the baby out with the bath water. Scott Pruitt managed to reverse most of the EPA regulation meant to protect our environment but was not profitable for big companies. Coincidentally, every single cabinet secretary Trump chose to oversee his energy and environmental agenda, has ties to the fossil fuel industry.

Fact that they've run the same tax bungle as Bush which didn't and won't work and will destroy the guts and growth of the Obama era. This is also true. The 'tax bungle' as you refer to it started in 2002 with George Bush's tax cuts. Those eventually lead to the great depression of 2007-09.

Fact is he brought North Korea to the table and how successful this will be remains to be seen. Here's a fact. Every single U.S. President since Eisenhower has been invited to meet with the Kim regime in N. Korea. Trump didn't bring Kim Jong-un anywhere. What he did was provide this despotic dictator with propaganda to use for his people.

Fact is we're loosing Africa to China and they want India too. Again, I don't know what you're referring to here. "Losing Africa"? The U.S. does not own Africa, so how could we lose something we don't rule over?

Fact is that he's doing some business and trade deals and as a big boss knows how. I agree with Trump that international trade rules are unfair. Trump’s tariff-centric trade policies are a raw deal that won’t fix what’s broken about the global trading system. Higher tariffs on imported steel and aluminum will harm the automotive industry and construction, which are big employers.

Fact is that he deals with Russia in the same way. There's never been a president whose campaign was deeply connected to Russia. Even at his inauguration, some of the top Russian oligarchs/spies were given tickets and access to the ceremony. It's not normal to privately host two of Russia's top spies in the Oval Office without U.S. press present.

I agree Trump is unusually bad and here you've given some facts.

What I'm trying to say is that is that it really proves no point to criticize his rhetoric.