Carson Claims Thomas Jefferson "Crafted" the Constitution

[matchlight]

I just went through Query XIII and find no reference or even slight mention of a "bill of rights" or anything like such a thing even though Virginia had a declaration of rights as part of its constitution from 1776. Maybe it slipped by me. Care to cite the exact paragraph? Surely you're conversant enough with this document to be able to tell me immediately. Your move.

I never even implied that Query XIII mentioned anything about a bill of rights. But it's hard to imagine Madison never talked about his project to draft a bill of rights (which was one big headache to him) during his frequent dinners with close friend and neighbor Jefferson.

The question is whether, or to what extent, the Constitution reflects Thomas Jefferson's influence. The Bill of Rights is only one part of the Constitution. Next you'll be trying to tell us that when Jefferson, in February, 1787, published material he had originally written in 1781 and 1782, he had no idea there was going to be a constitutional convention that summer, or that any of the delegates might want to consider his lengthy comments on the Virginia constitution and on constitutions in general. Surely Jefferson was too dim ever to have imagined that his comments, with their publication timed as it was, might have any effect on the delegates to the convention several months later.

 

[Hicup]

There were a great many men, and women I might add, that were involved in the crafting of the US Constitution, Jefferson among them. Seems to me that Digitus is getting bent out of shape for nothing. His signature line lends clues as to the possible cause for his derangement syndrome.

Oh, almost forgot, LOL

Tim-

 

[ocean515]

It's difficult to find evidence of something that doesn't exist but I have no doubt that rightwing talent for manufacturing evidence will come up with something. If nothing else they are good at believing in fantasies and myths.

I think your problem is in vocabulary. When you use the words "match" and "historical" what you're really looking for is "concoct" and "imaginary." But it's fun watching you chase your tail.

Yes, I am watching Socialist Progressives attempting to concoct and use imagination in place of match and historical. I appreciate your admission of as much.

Have a nice day. eace

 

[digitusmedius]

There were a great many men, and women I might add, that were involved in the crafting of the US Constitution, Jefferson among them. Seems to me that Digitus is getting bent out of shape for nothing. His signature line lends clues as to the possible cause for his derangement syndrome.

Oh, almost forgot, LOL

Tim-

I've lost track of the number of times I've agreed that Jefferson may have had some indirect influence in getting the BoR created and passed. As you say, that would make him no different than many other men of the day. I guess the goal for you lot is to stretch the definition of "crafting" so broadly that the entire Congress that passed the BoR and all the state legislatures that ratified it were all "crafters," I guess in the sense that everyone at a quilting bee is a "crafter" of a quilt (although that retains the hands-on sense of the definition of the word that would not have applied to Jefferson who was not a part of any of those assemblies). In that case, why did Carson only think of Jefferson when so many others were directly involved in the process? Is it because Jefferson is the only name that Carson could think of? Is that much of a defense of his historical knowledge? Must be if one's a rightwinger and details don't matter.



Oh, yeah.....LOL.

 

[digitusmedius]

Yes, I am watching Socialist Progressives attempting to concoct and use imagination in place of match and historical. I appreciate your admission of as much.

Have a nice day. eace

Your retreat is duly noted. Wise move.

 

[digitusmedius]

I never even implied that Query XIII mentioned anything about a bill of rights. But it's hard to imagine Madison never talked about his project to draft a bill of rights (which was one big headache to him) during his frequent dinners with close friend and neighbor Jefferson.

Then why did you bring the irrelevant Notes on Virginia up? I suspect you thought I wouldn't look into it and it sounded good. I'm sure Madison was quite aware of Jefferson's feelings on a BoR. EVERYONE was aware of that and Jefferson was part of a very large majority of the founders who favored some form of such a declaration to be added to the Constitution. Jefferson was no more zealous or vocal about that than many many others. The Congress passed the BoR after just one month of debate by it's mandatory 2/3 majority. It took the over two years to get the required 3/4 state legislatures to pass it (well, pass 10 of the 12 amendments that Congress had sent to them), but there really was very little stiff opposition to the BoR. Interestingly, the last state to ratify the "package" was VA. One would have thought Jefferson's home state where his influence should have been paramount would have been first. In any case, the effort to cover up Carson's F in American history has led to a ridiculous inflation of Jefferson's role, influence and power in the matter. It has been more than amusing to watch.

The question is whether, or to what extent, the Constitution reflects Thomas Jefferson's influence. The Bill of Rights is only one part of the Constitution. Next you'll be trying to tell us that when Jefferson, in February, 1787, published material he had originally written in 1781 and 1782, he had no idea there was going to be a constitutional convention that summer, or that any of the delegates might want to consider his lengthy comments on the Virginia constitution and on constitutions in general. Surely Jefferson was too dim ever to have imagined that his comments, with their publication timed as it was, might have any effect on the delegates to the convention several months later.[/QUOTE]

 

[Hicup]

I've lost track of the number of times I've agreed that Jefferson may have had some indirect influence in getting the BoR created and passed. As you say, that would make him no different than many other men of the day. I guess the goal for you lot is to stretch the definition of "crafting" so broadly that the entire Congress that passed the BoR and all the state legislatures that ratified it were all "crafters," I guess in the sense that everyone at a quilting bee is a "crafter" of a quilt (although that retains the hands-on sense of the definition of the word that would not have applied to Jefferson who was not a part of any of those assemblies). In that case, why did Carson only think of Jefferson when so many others were directly involved in the process? Is it because Jefferson is the only name that Carson could think of? Is that much of a defense of his historical knowledge? Must be if one's a rightwinger and details don't matter.



Oh, yeah.....LOL.

No, what I think is that you've already made up your mind that all conservatives are just a stinking pile of dog poop, and mostly just messing up your country. I'll take note (since this is the first time I've read anything you've written on this forum) for the future that you'll hold progressive politicians and the like to the same standard of accuracy, and scrutiny.


Tim-

 

[digitusmedius]

No, what I think is that you've already made up your mind that all conservatives are just a stinking pile of dog poop, and mostly just messing up your country. I'll take note (since this is the first time I've read anything you've written on this forum) for the future that you'll hold progressive politicians and the like to the same standard of accuracy, and scrutiny.


Tim-

Those are your words, not mine. LOL. I'm happy to have your oversight. Don't bother with trying to compare it to Obama's insignificant verbal slips like "57 states" or "whatever they call it in Austrian." Those have already been tried already and failed as they don't quite rise to the level of importance as flubbing it completely on the history of the BoR. Or maybe you think they do in which case that disqualifies you from passing any judgment on anyone.

 

[digitusmedius]

Next you'll be trying to tell us that when Jefferson, in February, 1787, published material he had originally written in 1781 and 1782, he had no idea there was going to be a constitutional convention that summer, or that any of the delegates might want to consider his lengthy comments on the Virginia constitution and on constitutions in general. Surely Jefferson was too dim ever to have imagined that his comments, with their publication timed as it was, might have any effect on the delegates to the convention several months later.

You should stick to working on better excuses for Carson's ignorance of our history (and apparently yours as well) than making up self-serving scenarios about what I'll do next. You're already scoreless in an effort to revise history. Predicting the future would be a really bad idea for you.

 

[ocean515]

Your retreat is duly noted. Wise move.

For the grossly impaired, I offer this escape. I would strongly suggest you consider it.


Craft | Definition of craft by Merriam-Webster

 

[Hicup]

Those are your words, not mine. LOL. I'm happy to have your oversight. Don't bother with trying to compare it to Obama's insignificant verbal slips like "57 states" or "whatever they call it in Austrian." Those have already been tried already and failed as they don't quite rise to the level of importance as flubbing it completely on the history of the BoR. Or maybe you think they do in which case that disqualifies you from passing any judgment on anyone.

Hey you can justify pretty much anything you believe if you try hard enough. The problem for you though is that on this site there are a number of us that ignore folks such as yourself. Self-marginalization is common theme here, and you're fast approaching that status. Those, on this forum, that continue to enjoy credibility with their insights tend to show a great deal of consistency and integrity when it comes to their personal beliefs and opinions; even if those opinions differ from time to time with other members.

Tim-

 

[digitusmedius]

For the grossly impaired, I offer this escape. I would strongly suggest you consider it.


Craft | Definition of craft by Merriam-Webster

Did you even read the definition? "Make." "Produce." Now you've left the realm of fantasy and entered the land of pure make-believe. You lot started out claiming Jefferson "inspired" the BoR a la the ACLU and now you're claiming he actually created it? That's beyond bizarre.

 

[digitusmedius]

Hey you can justify pretty much anything you believe if you try hard enough. The problem for you though is that on this site there are a number of us that ignore folks such as yourself. Self-marginalization is common theme here, and you're fast approaching that status. Those, on this forum, that continue to enjoy credibility with their insights tend to show a great deal of consistency and integrity when it comes to their personal beliefs and opinions; even if those opinions differ from time to time with other members.

Tim-

That's classic projection start to finish. Moreover , it reads like it was dictated by Sarah Palin. LOL.

 

[beerftw]

That is the current BS that's being spewed out about Carson's huge gaffe. Good job toeing the party line.

It is actually true to anyone who studied the founding fathers, your claim would be like saying 2 engineers slaved away designing a house, but one did the actual building while the other did more engineering, but saying the engineer had zero to do with the house and only the builder.

 

[ocean515]

Did you even read the definition? "Make." "Produce." Now you've left the realm of fantasy and entered the land of pure make-believe. You lot started out claiming Jefferson "inspired" the BoR a la the ACLU and now you're claiming he actually created it? That's beyond bizarre.

Dang, you're doubling down on something you probably don't want to be known for. Perhaps you should take the advice of some other posters who have commented. One person debates aren't very productive.

BTW. I was suggesting you look up the definition of "Craft" as in "Crafting". Apparently you want to remain firmly entrenched in the zone you've invented for yourself. You should have taken my advice.

 

[digitusmedius]

It is actually true to anyone who studied the founding fathers, your claim would be like saying 2 engineers slaved away designing a house, but one did the actual building while the other did more engineering, but saying the engineer had zero to do with the house and only the builder.

I'm used to seeing tortured analogies from rightwingers but that's a true standout. I take it you're neither an engineer (who don't design houses--those would be architects, but I quibble) nor have had a lot of experience in employing language to get your points across. But since sometimes people like Madison are referred to as "architects" of the Constitution, I'll play along. The more apt analogy for describing Jefferson's part in the creation of the Bill of Rights or any part of the Constitution that Carson and those of you trying desperately to justify him would be as one of many other architects who haven't actually been at the building site or even seen the plans for the house but sends in his opinions about what should be part of the plans by long distance mail.

 

[digitusmedius]

Dang, you're doubling down on something you probably don't want to be known for. Perhaps you should take the advice of some other posters who have commented. One person debates aren't very productive.

BTW. I was suggesting you look up the definition of "Craft" as in "Crafting". Apparently you want to remain firmly entrenched in the zone you've invented for yourself. You should have taken my advice.

So you're going to change the part of speech from a verb to a noun to try to beat your dead horse back to life? You're looking to Michaels® as a way of this hole you've dug for yourself? Still doesn't work. But I'm enjoying the spectacle of your desperation.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Here's the quote from yesteday's C-SPAN interview (clip below):

"I’m impressed by a lot of them, but particularly impressed with Thomas Jefferson, who seemed to have very deep insight into the way that people would react,” Carson said. “And he tried to craft our Constitution in a way that it would control people’s natural tendencies and control the natural growth of the government.”



Of course, every 8th grader is taught (even if the don't learn it) that James Madison was the principal writer of the Constitution. At the time of most of the Constitutional Congresses, Jefferson was serving as the US minister to France. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was not even present to sign the document. But it's not at all unusual for rightwingers like Carson to not know the difference between the two documents. Carson may have been (and I stress "may" because so far the only source for his greatness is his autobiography) but he know nothing about our nation's history as he's repeatedly demonstrated. Earlier this month he claimed that none of the founding fathers had previously held political office when, in fact, most of them had (although they were colonial offices, of course). He also claims that leaders don't need to be politicians. But one of the things all politicians have to be ready to do is negotiate and, yes--dirty word among republicans--compromise to get things done. A highly ranked physician like Carson has rarely, if ever, had to compromise in order to do his job. His career has mostly been that of an autocrat who orders things to happen and they happen, rarely with any objection. He is unfit for high office in this country on almost any criterion there is.

Who Wrote The Constitution - constitution | Laws.com

"Thomas Jefferson – the Father of the Declaration of Independence, and John Adams are both recognized as influential framers of the Constitution of the United States:
John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were both undertaking diplomatic missions in Europe during the creation of the final version of the Constitution of the United States; as a result, neither the signature of Thomas Jefferson – nor that of John Adams appear amongst the names of the Constitutional signees"

Well, you messed that one up, didn't you? The basic framework was a collaboration of four men. Not all of them were present at the convention, but they did contribute. Obviously, the debates and compromises came at the convention, but those debates and compromises started with the framework put forth by Jefferson and Adams and amended by Hamilton and Mason.

The conclusion is, Carson wasn't all wrong. He may have given more credit to Jefferson than deserved, but the contention that Jefferson did participate in the drafting of the document is accurate.

 

[digitusmedius]

Who Wrote The Constitution - constitution | Laws.com

"Thomas Jefferson – the Father of the Declaration of Independence, and John Adams are both recognized as influential framers of the Constitution of the United States:
John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were both undertaking diplomatic missions in Europe during the creation of the final version of the Constitution of the United States; as a result, neither the signature of Thomas Jefferson – nor that of John Adams appear amongst the names of the Constitutional signees"

Well, you messed that one up, didn't you? The basic framework was a collaboration of four men. Not all of them were present at the convention, but they did contribute. Obviously, the debates and compromises came at the convention, but those debates and compromises started with the framework put forth by Jefferson and Adams and amended by Hamilton and Mason.

The conclusion is, Carson wasn't all wrong. He may have given more credit to Jefferson than deserved, but the contention that Jefferson did participate in the drafting of the document is accurate.

So you've taken your source's language, i.e., "influential framers", and then change it to "did participate in the drafting" and claim they both mean the same thing? Do words mean anything, other than things you can twist to your purpose as you feel the need? Carson used the verb "craft" which is to make or create in every dictionary's first definition, i.e., the most common usage. Your source uses the word, framer, which in reference to the Constitution, has a pretty specific meaning which is those 55 men who were physically present in Philadelphia at the Constitutional convention of Summer, 1787 (see link below). So your source as taken considerable liberty in referring to people who were not present then and there as "framers." Then you introduce a new word, "drafters," to the mix. Problem (for you) is, again in the context of creating the Constitution the drafters are synonymous with "framers," in that they were those same 55 men (see second link). So, every time you try to create a new version of what Carson meant you and others keep running head first into the same wall. Jefferson did not "craft" (i.e., make) or draft or frame any part of the Constitution. Did he have strong opinions about the subject and write them down? Absolutely. Did the actual framers or drafters take those opinions into account? Probably. All of that has been conceded long ago in this discussion. It's also been noted that Jefferson was far from being alone in his ideas for a BoR. In fact, the person who wrote the Virginia Declaration of Rights for it's first Constitution in 1776, George Mason, was in fact a drafter and framer and crafter of the US Constitution. Parts of his DoR read almost verbatim for the later federal BoR (see 3rd link). If anything, Jefferson incorporated ideas (you'll see them in that link, too) that Mason wrote down in that DoR and used them when he "crafted" the Declaration of Independence which appeared about 3 weeks later on July 4, 1776. No one every denied that Jefferson was an influential part of the process in the country's founding. But for Carson to name him as the principal force behind creation of the Constitution or BoR indicates a very poor knowledge of the era. Madison should have been the first name to come to anyone's mind who knows anything about it. And there are 54 others and many less well-known names who have an actual historical claim to being crafters, framers or drafters of those documents ahead of Jefferson.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=framers

Drafters of the Constitution - ACLU Pros & Cons - ProCon.org

Bill of Rights - The Virginia Declaration of Rights

 

[ksu_aviator]

So you've taken your source's language, i.e., "influential framers", and then change it to "did participate in the drafting" and claim they both mean the same thing? Do words mean anything, other than things you can twist to your purpose as you feel the need? Carson used the verb "craft" which is to make or create in every dictionary's first definition, i.e., the most common usage. Your source uses the word, framer, which in reference to the Constitution, has a pretty specific meaning which is those 55 men who were physically present in Philadelphia at the Constitutional convention of Summer, 1787 (see link below). So your source as taken considerable liberty in referring to people who were not present then and there as "framers." Then you introduce a new word, "drafters," to the mix. Problem (for you) is, again in the context of creating the Constitution the drafters are synonymous with "framers," in that they were those same 55 men (see second link). So, every time you try to create a new version of what Carson meant you and others keep running head first into the same wall. Jefferson did not "craft" (i.e., make) or draft or frame any part of the Constitution. Did he have strong opinions about the subject and write them down? Absolutely. Did the actual framers or drafters take those opinions into account? Probably. All of that has been conceded long ago in this discussion. It's also been noted that Jefferson was far from being alone in his ideas for a BoR. In fact, the person who wrote the Virginia Declaration of Rights for it's first Constitution in 1776, George Mason, was in fact a drafter and framer and crafter of the US Constitution. Parts of his DoR read almost verbatim for the later federal BoR (see 3rd link). If anything, Jefferson incorporated ideas (you'll see them in that link, too) that Mason wrote down in that DoR and used them when he "crafted" the Declaration of Independence which appeared about 3 weeks later on July 4, 1776. No one every denied that Jefferson was an influential part of the process in the country's founding. But for Carson to name him as the principal force behind creation of the Constitution or BoR indicates a very poor knowledge of the era. Madison should have been the first name to come to anyone's mind who knows anything about it. And there are 54 others and many less well-known names who have an actual historical claim to being crafters, framers or drafters of those documents ahead of Jefferson.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=framers

Drafters of the Constitution - ACLU Pros & Cons - ProCon.org

Bill of Rights - The Virginia Declaration of Rights

What do you think the word framer means?

 

[digitusmedius]

What do you think the word framer means?

Do I have to repeat this after clearly stating it above (and providing a link to the source for it)? Okay, I understand why you'd need to have it repeated: In the context of the US Constitution it specifically refers to the 55 men who assembled in the Summer of 1787 in Philadelphia and actually wrote the Constitution and then sent it to the states for the ratification process. I fact during the 3 1/2 months of the convention, there were only a few exchanges between Jefferson and Madison compared to dozens from the delegates to many other parties. There's nothing to suggest that Jefferson was any more than a spectator mostly dissatisfied with the way the convention was handled rather than a "player."

 

[JumpinJack]

Here's the quote from yesteday's C-SPAN interview (clip below):

"I’m impressed by a lot of them, but particularly impressed with Thomas Jefferson, who seemed to have very deep insight into the way that people would react,” Carson said. “And he tried to craft our Constitution in a way that it would control people’s natural tendencies and control the natural growth of the government.”



Of course, every 8th grader is taught (even if the don't learn it) that James Madison was the principal writer of the Constitution. At the time of most of the Constitutional Congresses, Jefferson was serving as the US minister to France. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was not even present to sign the document. But it's not at all unusual for rightwingers like Carson to not know the difference between the two documents. Carson may have been (and I stress "may" because so far the only source for his greatness is his autobiography) but he know nothing about our nation's history as he's repeatedly demonstrated. Earlier this month he claimed that none of the founding fathers had previously held political office when, in fact, most of them had (although they were colonial offices, of course). He also claims that leaders don't need to be politicians. But one of the things all politicians have to be ready to do is negotiate and, yes--dirty word among republicans--compromise to get things done. A highly ranked physician like Carson has rarely, if ever, had to compromise in order to do his job. His career has mostly been that of an autocrat who orders things to happen and they happen, rarely with any objection. He is unfit for high office in this country on almost any criterion there is.

Some keen observations there.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I find it funny that there's this sudden adulation of Jefferson from the rightwing and its effort to give him credit for every founding document this country ever produced. Of course, he's also the source for the principle of "wall of separation between church and state" which they dismiss as having any meaning in this country. While in office he also discontinued the practice started by Washington and continued by Adams of federal recognition of religious holidays. But the rightwing does not wish us to remind us of these things.

Don't forget his rewritten Bible!

 

[fmw]

I made the same mistake. I thought Jefferson had a big influence on the constitution.

 

[ocean515]

So you're going to change the part of speech from a verb to a noun to try to beat your dead horse back to life? You're looking to Michaels® as a way of this hole you've dug for yourself? Still doesn't work. But I'm enjoying the spectacle of your desperation.

So you're one of those who can't stand to not have the last word on something?

You've lost this argument. Your position has been eviscerated, and the powdered remains blown away like dust. Give it a rest. Not everyone wins every debate. You're just making yourself look ridiculous.