It is also true that not all Germans were Nazis. But because their leaders were Nazis, there was heavy collateral damage among the non-Nazis. As long as the Islamists hide behind the innocent, those innocents are at extreme risk - unless, of course, you lack the moral courage to do the right thing and eliminate the bad guys; in that case, the bad guys win.
Can't undo going there. But, we should have made sure things were going to remain stable, before we left.
Yeah they were REAL FREAKIN' stable while we were there! :roll:
Look at any stats/graphs on civilians deaths and you see using 2008 as measure, the first half was high, a sudden drop off in the last half and roughly 1/3 the number since. So those who lament a lack of 'leadership' under President Obama have not done their homework.
Those who use such vague words like 'stable' just quibble. The death toll is stable, the government is stable, the borders stable, and oil production stable.
None of which means much, just the killing continues at a lower rate than the first half of '08, the government hasn't dissolved, the borders are still there and as 'secure' as when we were there, and oil flows but not like the predictions of those who assured the American Public we would be greeted with flowers and candies... :roll:
We didn't fix much or stablize anything, simply changed the face of fear from a few to many.
Hence the reason we shouldnt have just up and hauled ass. How long did it take to stabilize Japan and Germany?
We must have had different history classes in school... I don't recall reading about German or Japanese 'dead-enders' killing thousands of American soldiers after VE/VJ day, nor reading anything about the civilians of either nation killing thousands of their own every month for the years we occupied both nations. I also don't remember either nation being an artificial series of lines on a map combining ethnic/religious groups with a long hatred for each other into a nation state like most of the Middle East.
I did read where we spent years and thousands of American lives beating both WWII enemy countries into piles of rubble that left little doubt both nations, who either attacked us directly of attempted world domination, got one hellova beat down and were very defeated nations.
We gave massive aid to both nations- something BushII's neocons haughtily refused to do at first helping set in motion much of the violence in Iraq. Hungry men with automatic weapons and tons of munitions left lying around because we didn't secure them...
FYI, no yardstick a con can bring to the debate can EVER compare the stabilization we affected in German and Japanese after WWII to anything BushII's team affected in Iraq. (That is what you attempted to claim at first)
We must have had different history classes in school... I don't recall reading about German or Japanese 'dead-enders' killing thousands of American soldiers after VE/VJ day, nor reading anything about the civilians of either nation killing thousands of their own every month for the years we occupied both nations. I also don't remember either nation being an artificial series of lines on a map combining ethnic/religious groups with a long hatred for each other into a nation state like most of the Middle East.
I did read where we spent years and thousands of American lives beating both WWII enemy countries into piles of rubble that left little doubt both nations, who either attacked us directly of attempted world domination, got one hellova beat down and were very defeated nations.
We gave massive aid to both nations- something BushII's neocons haughtily refused to do at first helping set in motion much of the violence in Iraq. Hungry men with automatic weapons and tons of munitions left lying around because we didn't secure them...
FYI, no yardstick a con can bring to the debate can EVER compare the stabilization we affected in German and Japanese after WWII to anything BushII's team affected in Iraq. (That is what you attempted to claim at first)
I think they know just enough about history to get it wrong. They too often miss very important differences.
You're comparison only reinforces the fact that it was far too early to leave.
Or maybe our being there in the first place.
Looks like up and leaving wasn't such a great idea.
Looks like up and leaving wasn't such a great idea.
Yes, fortunately nothing bad happened there and nobody was killed under Saddam Hussein.
Can't undo going there. But, we should have made sure things were going to remain stable, before we left.
No, but they had a civil engineering plan, internal security, an education system, and were not at war with either themselves or anyone else.
They were for the most part a dirt speck on the earth.
We kicked them out of Kuwait and the Iran Iraq war was over.Their internal security system consisted of large-scale massacres, compared to which the current death-toll is pretty small.
And they were at war with most of their neighbours and a continuing threat to the other countries in the region.
We kicked them out of Kuwait and the Iran Iraq war was over.
And at this rate, who long before the "large scale massacres" pale in comparison.
And you didnt answer my question. Was it worth it?
Our investment in lives and money have helped almost break OUR nation.
They continued to violate the terms of the cease-fire, tried to blow up a US ex-President, kept threatening their neighbours.
You also seem to forget that the US and its allies kept bombing Iraq throughout the 1990's. Would you have preferred to keep doing that for a couple of decades longer?
The number of dead from the current attacks would have to rise 100fold for it to approach the bloodletting under Saddam.
Whether it was worth it is much too soon to tell. There isn't sufficient historical perspective yet.
They continued to violate the terms of a cease fire and no fly zone.
Use air power to destroy their war machine.
Their neighbors need to start investing in their own defense.
It would have been cheaper to continue a bombing campaign then to waste how many American lives.
It will never been worth it. Just like Viet Nam.
One can only achieve so much with air power.
Saying it was "just like Vietnam" is short for "I can't be bothered to think about it rationally".
What a total cluster mess Iraq has turned out to be....
Car bombs kill nearly 80 in Iraq, target Eid festivities | Reuters
Can't undo going there. But, we should have made sure things were going to remain stable, before we left.
Their internal security system consisted of large-scale massacres, compared to which the current death-toll is pretty small.
And they were at war with most of their neighbours and a continuing threat to the other countries in the region.
Then Saudi Arabia can spend some of its trillions to defend and fight from now on.Saudi Arabia can't be too happy a Shiite controlled nation sits on it's rather defenseless northern border. As Iraq has proven, religious differences matter far more than political ones.
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