Capitalism and the first amendment

[devildavid]

Then go answer the questions in post 57.

Capitalism has nothing at all to do with free speech.

 

[aociswundumho]

Capitalism makes people free. Surely slaves, people treated as capitalist property, had lots of freedom?

People have property rights over their own bodies, which is exactly why slavery is a grotesque violation of those rights. What's next, are you going to claim kidnapping is capitalism too?

 

[aociswundumho]

Capitalism has nothing at all to do with free speech.

Then answer the questions:

Under which system is free speech and a free press more likely to exist? A privately owned press or a government controlled press? Social networks owned by capitalists, or social networks owned by the state?

 

[devildavid]

A prepaid phone can be had for under fifty dollars. Cell phones today are nothing short of a technological marvel. A single device in your pocket now holds more computing power than the systems that sent astronauts to the moon, while also replacing cameras, tv, maps, encyclopedias, typewriters, and even the post office. Billions of people walk around daily carrying what just a few decades ago would have been considered a supercomputer.

You can thank capitalism for all of it.

You can also thank capitalism for pollution and fast food. So what?

 

[aociswundumho]

You can also thank capitalism for pollution

The only countries that care about the environment are wealthy countries, and the only way countries get rich is by allowing capitalism and largely free markets.

and fast food. So what?

Over a third of Americans eat fast food every day.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Another in a ridiculous set of threads by the OP pretending systems of economics are purely capitalism or purely socialism.

There is no direct relationship between any freedoms and capitalism, none at all. Technically there are nations out there that have more elements of planned economics than we do, some with entire sectors of the economy ran by the government, and they rank higher each year on freedom indexes.

We are seeing arguments lately getting to the point of trolling the forums with these subjects.

 

[devildavid]

People have property rights over their own bodies, which is exactly why slavery is a grotesque violation of those rights. What's next, are you going to claim kidnapping is capitalism too?

We don’t have property rights over our bodies. That is a made up philosophical claim with no meaning. All claims of rights are. Rights are an invention of states. Capitalism depends on the existence of the state. Capitalism bestowed zero rights on people. Capitalism has no problem with exploiting workers and making them wage slaves. Capitalism can and does use slave labor. It has no values or morals. It is an economic model only, not a philosophy or moral position.

 

[devildavid]

The only countries that care about the environment are wealthy countries, and the only way countries get rich is by allowing capitalism and largely free markets.



Over a third of Americans eat fast food every day.

Which means that poisoning our environment and our bodies are positive aspects of capitalism.

 

[aociswundumho]

We don’t have property rights over our bodies. That is a made up philosophical claim with no meaning. All claims of rights are. Rights are an invention of states.

That's the collectivist view, held by people like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and modern white supremacists like Richard Spencer. Timestamped:



Your view of human rights are the same as some of the worst people who have ever lived.

Capitalism depends on the existence of the state.

Wrong.

Nearly 20% of the world's gdp takes place off the books. That would not be possible if capitalism needed idiot politicians.

 

[devildavid]

That's the collectivist view, held by people like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and modern white supremacists like Richard Spencer. Timestamped:



Your view of human rights are the same as some of the worst people who have ever lived.




Wrong.

Nearly 20% of the world's gdp takes place off the books. That would not be possible if capitalism needed idiot politicians.

That is the facts. Rights are the invention of states. There was no conception of rights until states were formed. There is no such thing as rights outside of states. The irony is that the existence of states led to the invention of the concept of natural rights. Provide evidence that rights exist outside of state created concepts and were even contemplated prior to those times and places in human history.

 

[aociswundumho]

There was no conception of rights until states were formed. There is no such thing as rights outside of states.

A quote from Iron Curtain

Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.”3 Strictly defined, a totalitarian regime is one that bans all institu...

www.goodreads.com

 

[bongsaway]

A prepaid phone can be had for under fifty dollars. Cell phones today are nothing short of a technological marvel. A single device in your pocket now holds more computing power than the systems that sent astronauts to the moon, while also replacing cameras, tv, maps, encyclopedias, typewriters, and even the post office. Billions of people walk around daily carrying what just a few decades ago would have been considered a supercomputer.

You can thank capitalism for all of it.

Do you use a prepaid phone and how long does fifty bucks last before you have to pay again? You're talking like an apple prepaid phone or some piece of shit?

 

[aociswundumho]

Provide evidence that rights exist outside of state created concepts

Rights not only precede the state, they reach further back, predating humanity itself.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/territoriality

 

[Yes_Minister]

You are confusing welfare statism and socialism.

Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist

After seeing his country held up as an example in the US presidential debate, Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen used an address at Harvard to explain the Nordic model to a US audience suddenly very interested in Denmark.

www.thelocal.dk

 

[devildavid]

A quote from Iron Curtain

Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.”3 Strictly defined, a totalitarian regime is one that bans all institu...

www.goodreads.com

The founders created a state whose goal was to secure our rights. See the Declaration of Independence. They recognized the need of a Government to exist to secure rights. That is the state.

--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Note the capitalized word Government. That means the state. The Government is the state formed to secure rights.

 

[aociswundumho]

They recognized the need of a Government to exist to secure rights.

Let's go back in time and ask the guy who wrote that if it included black people. You know, like the ones he owned.

 

[aociswundumho]

The founders created a state whose goal was to secure our rights.

The state is the biggest violator of human rights that has ever existed.

 

[Yes_Minister]

The state is the biggest violator of human rights that has ever existed.

Oh, please, you are the easiest guy to counter on this forum. Every time I mentioned the laundry list of companies that abused human rights, you clam up pretty quickly, because you have no answer for that.

 

[aociswundumho]

Oh, please, you are the easiest guy to counter on this forum. Every time I mentioned the laundry list of companies that abused human rights, you clam up pretty quickly, because you have no answer for that.

Just because I didn't respond to one your dumb comments doesn't mean I'm conceding the point.

Instead of "abuse" let's compare the ultimate human rights violation - murder. Private sector vs public sector. I already did the math:

Thread 'Pro-gunners are wrong. Some gun restrictions are absolutely necessary!'

Apr 21, 2020

Doesn't matter what pro-gunners say, sometimes there is very strong case for gun restrictions or preferably an outright ban, and I will outline such a case below, although, unfortunately, these restrictions will most likely be impossible to implement given the criminal nature of those who should be disarmed.

I did a fast, back of the envelope calculation regarding how many intentional homicides have been committed by individuals over the last 120 years worldwide. I created a quick spreadsheet and used the world average of 7 intentional homicides per 100,000 people per year. The...

• aociswundumho
• Replies: 43
• Forum: Guns and Gun Control

 

[Yes_Minister]

Just because I didn't respond to one your dumb comments doesn't mean I'm conceding the point.

Instead of "abuse" let's compare the ultimate human rights violation - murder. Private sector vs public sector. I already did the math:

Thread 'Pro-gunners are wrong. Some gun restrictions are absolutely necessary!'

Apr 21, 2020

Doesn't matter what pro-gunners say, sometimes there is very strong case for gun restrictions or preferably an outright ban, and I will outline such a case below, although, unfortunately, these restrictions will most likely be impossible to implement given the criminal nature of those who should be disarmed.

I did a fast, back of the envelope calculation regarding how many intentional homicides have been committed by individuals over the last 120 years worldwide. I created a quick spreadsheet and used the world average of 7 intentional homicides per 100,000 people per year. The...

• aociswundumho
• Replies: 43
• Forum: Guns and Gun Control

According to that logic we shouldn't punish Ted Bundy because he killed fewer people than Hitler. That's bad moral logic.

Where do companies like the East India company who ran an entire country factor into that chart? Was slavery in the US okay because the slave holders were private individuals rather than government officials? Of course not.

Do you think a person cares whether they are killed by a government or a corporation? Death is death.

 

[NotreDame]

I do realize that. Capitalism = private control, socialism = public control, which 99% of the time means state controlled.

Let's start with free speech. Under which system is free speech and a free press more likely to exist? A privately owned press or a government controlled press? Social networks owned by capitalists, or social networks owned by the state?

Under which system is free speech and a free press more likely to exist? A privately owned press or a government controlled press? Social networks owned by capitalists, or social networks owned by the state?

Regardless of the “ism,” a free press is more likely to exist in a “system” where there is a legal structure strongly protecting a free press, which can exist within Socialism, Capitalism, and Communism. Socialism doesn’t necessitate ownership of the “press,” and neither does Socialism necessitate no private ownership of the press. Private ownership of the press can co-exist with Socialism.

Your last query refers to a particular arrangement that can appear in a Socialist nation but ignores that there are and have been Socialist nations with privately owned press, news, media, and ignored a hybrid of state news and media networks and privately owned news and media networks.


Indeed, in a capitalist regime one can have as much a deprivation of freedom and liberty in regards to the press, news, media, as you perceive of social networks owned by the state. How? Why?

Because the “ism” doesn’t mandate what you incorrectly attribute to the “ism” but rather its human beings, people, acting within Socialism consciously and actively deciding a free press exists, doesn’t, or a hybrid.

 

[NotreDame]

So the Nordic model is what you want for the US, correct?

No, that isn’t a statement @tshade made when replying to your query of:

what country has ever had freedom without capitalism

@tshade rightly referred to Socialist Democracies and/or Socialist Democratic nations that exist with, guess what, freedom.

In other words, your proposition of not capitalism=no freedom is false.

 

[spud_meister]

People have property rights over their own bodies, which is exactly why slavery is a grotesque violation of those rights.

It's capitalist efficiency at its finest. Instead of buying a person's labour, just buy the person.

What's next, are you going to claim kidnapping is capitalism too?

Yes. There's big profits in sex trafficking, just ask famous capitalist Jeffrey Epstein.

 

[Yes_Minister]

People have property rights over their own bodies, which is exactly why slavery is a grotesque violation of those rights. What's next, are you going to claim kidnapping is capitalism too?

And yet slave owners in America used property rights to justify owing slaves.

 

[aociswundumho]

And yet slave owners in America used property rights to justify owing slaves.

1) It was your beloved government that sanctioned slavery.

2) It was your beloved government that prohibited slaves from owning firearms, in violation of the 2nd amendment.