Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.[W:745]

[jbander]

Solution, no cap gain reduction in tax, it's income nothing else. 1/10 of 1% receive more then half the benefit of the cap gains free ride. If that wasn't the case the tax , as it is written, wouldn't exist.
Nothing would change, people would still invest with the same risk reward strategy. It would be invested differently but the money would still be there to drive the economy. If your worrying about a transfer to foreign investments. two things, our market is still the most secure market in the world and simply tax foreign investments as needed in a degree that will balance and level the playing field.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Solution, no cap gain reduction in tax, it's income nothing else. 1/10 of 1% receive more then half the benefit of the cap gains free ride. If that wasn't the case the tax , as it is written, wouldn't exist.
Nothing would change, people would still invest with the same risk reward strategy. It would be invested differently but the money would still be there to drive the economy. If your worrying about a transfer to foreign investments. two things, our market is still the most secure market in the world and simply tax foreign investments as needed in a degree that will balance and level the playing field.

I'm all for that.

I'm sick and damned tired of all these old people who are getting $15k social security, $15k/yr pension and $10k in qualified dividends from the 4000 shares of Exxon their mother left them not paying taxes on their haul.

 

[austrianecon]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Solution, no cap gain reduction in tax, it's income nothing else. 1/10 of 1% receive more then half the benefit of the cap gains free ride. If that wasn't the case the tax , as it is written, wouldn't exist.
Nothing would change, people would still invest with the same risk reward strategy. It would be invested differently but the money would still be there to drive the economy. If your worrying about a transfer to foreign investments. two things, our market is still the most secure market in the world and simply tax foreign investments as needed in a degree that will balance and level the playing field.

You do realize that your personal income decides the tax rate in which you are taxed on capital gains. It's actually beneficial to Retirees as a way to lower the costs of Social Security. For example.. The truth of the matter is that many people can lose their Social Security benefits if they happen to make too much money.

 

[edward222]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

I'm sick and damned tired of all these old people who are getting $15k social security, $15k/yr pension and $10k in qualified dividends from the 4000 shares of Exxon their mother left them not paying taxes on their haul.

Ow..... man.... Your not alone....
We are all sick and damned of all of these.

 

[ludin]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Solution, no cap gain reduction in tax, it's income nothing else. 1/10 of 1% receive more then half the benefit of the cap gains free ride. If that wasn't the case the tax , as it is written, wouldn't exist.
Nothing would change, people would still invest with the same risk reward strategy. It would be invested differently but the money would still be there to drive the economy. If your worrying about a transfer to foreign investments. two things, our market is still the most secure market in the world and simply tax foreign investments as needed in a degree that will balance and level the playing field.

yea this wouldn't throw people more so elderly people into abject poverty. also it would reduce investments by a huge margin.
do you people not think of effects of policies before spouting this nonsense? or is the 5 minute rant better than reasoned logic?

for any investment sold in a year it is considered income.
it is only capital gains if you hold it for more than 1 year. of when you bought it.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

yea this wouldn't throw people more so elderly people into abject poverty. also it would reduce investments by a huge margin.
do you people not think of effects of policies before spouting this nonsense? or is the 5 minute rant better than reasoned logic?

for any investment sold in a year it is considered income.
it is only capital gains if you hold it for more than 1 year. of when you bought it.

There is no evidence, at all, that having capital gains taxed as ordinary income reduces investment. As Warren Buffett said, "Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain."

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Solution, no cap gain reduction in tax, it's income nothing else. 1/10 of 1% receive more then half the benefit of the cap gains free ride. If that wasn't the case the tax , as it is written, wouldn't exist.
Nothing would change, people would still invest with the same risk reward strategy. It would be invested differently but the money would still be there to drive the economy. If your worrying about a transfer to foreign investments. two things, our market is still the most secure market in the world and simply tax foreign investments as needed in a degree that will balance and level the playing field.

another rant about the rich

move on nothing to see

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

I'm all for that.

I'm sick and damned tired of all these old people who are getting $15k social security, $15k/yr pension and $10k in qualified dividends from the 4000 shares of Exxon their mother left them not paying taxes on their haul.

Actually they would probably pay little tax on it anyway since their income is so low.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

yea this wouldn't throw people more so elderly people into abject poverty. also it would reduce investments by a huge margin.
do you people not think of effects of policies before spouting this nonsense? or is the 5 minute rant better than reasoned logic?

for any investment sold in a year it is considered income.
it is only capital gains if you hold it for more than 1 year. of when you bought it.

Actually it would increase real investment...

currently.. real investment.. like starting up a company is taxed much more than playing in the stock market

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Actually they would probably pay little tax on it anyway since their income is so low.

That was pretty much the point. As it stands they would not pay any tax on the gains but if the exclusion were removed (as the OP proposed) they would.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

That was pretty much the point. As it stands they would not pay any tax on the gains but if the exclusion were removed (as the OP proposed) they would.

No not really.. because their rate would be so low... married filing jointly at 40,000 of income is what 15%?

Hardly enough to put someone in the poor house if they pay an extra 1500 dollars a year.

Especially if they have 350, 160 dollars in Exxon stock.



.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

No not really.. because their rate would be so low... married filing jointly at 40,000 of income is what 15%?

Hardly enough to put someone in the poor house if they pay an extra 1500 dollars a year.

Especially if they have 350, 160 dollars in Exxon stock.



.

Again, that's the way the tax law is today. If you're in the 15% bracket (including capital gains) then the gains are not taxable at all. BUT if the preference treatment of CG is removed, as suggested by the OP, it WOULD be taxable.

As far as the "well, they have $350k worth of stock" argument goes, these people would be on a fixed income and the dividends they receive would, realistically, be part of their annual budget. If they were forced to start selling the stock just to pay tax then that hurts their ability to live a comfortable retirement. There are LOTS of people in that situation and every time they have to sell something to cover the cost of a new roof or a car repair they know it puts them closer and closer to reliance on only the government. Then again, I suppose that's part of the plan our current crop of socialists has for this nation.

 

[kjwins]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Solution, no cap gain reduction in tax, it's income nothing else. 1/10 of 1% receive more then half the benefit of the cap gains free ride. If that wasn't the case the tax , as it is written, wouldn't exist.
Nothing would change, people would still invest with the same risk reward strategy. It would be invested differently but the money would still be there to drive the economy. If your worrying about a transfer to foreign investments. two things, our market is still the most secure market in the world and simply tax foreign investments as needed in a degree that will balance and level the playing field.

We need a debt jubilee, reset the system. Basically wipe out the savings of the 1%. Then reform the tax code. Once the 99% has had enough, get together, & make the system work for all. This may just happen.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Simply tax ALL money going into a persons pocket or accounts as income according to the IRS schedules regardless of its origins. If you want to put a limited exemption for gifts of say $100 or under - fine, I can live with that if it spares me the stories about taxing little kids birthday gifts and other red herrings.

Problem solved.

 

[jbander]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

You people arguing against this with the idea that this is something for the middle class and poor are funny, if this wasn't for the top few percent this wouldn't exist. They use all of it but the trickle down that is promised from the right, so little that it doesn't even matter. If your worried about it, I would gladdy use some of this increased tax source to raise SS payments.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Again, that's the way the tax law is today. If you're in the 15% bracket (including capital gains) then the gains are not taxable at all. BUT if the preference treatment of CG is removed, as suggested by the OP, it WOULD be taxable.

As far as the "well, they have $350k worth of stock" argument goes, these people would be on a fixed income and the dividends they receive would, realistically, be part of their annual budget. If they were forced to start selling the stock just to pay tax then that hurts their ability to live a comfortable retirement. There are LOTS of people in that situation and every time they have to sell something to cover the cost of a new roof or a car repair they know it puts them closer and closer to reliance on only the government. Then again, I suppose that's part of the plan our current crop of socialists has for this nation.

Yes,... it would be taxable and the most they would pay would be 1500 extra dollars. Like I said.. hardly destitution. And they aren't selling stock to pay the tax bill... that's a flat out lie.. they pay the tax bill with the income that they generated with dividends...

IF you are telling me.. that they need that extra 1500 dollars a year.. to "live a comfortable lifestyle"..

Well conservatively 350,000 worth of stock gives them approximately 200 years worth of comfortable living.. ( calculating that they would need to take out roughly 1750 a year to generate 1500 in after tax money)...

See.. your numbers kind of break down here Luther

By the way.. I have no problem with keeping the current rule that under a certain amount you pay no capital gains tax.

Now.. lets talk about taxes on the other end of the spectrum. I own several businesses.. I have lots of employees.. that I pay wage taxes for, so on and so forth. If I generate 1 million in profits.. that's earned income.. so I pay at the highest percentage of earned income (plus the aca amount)...

So owning a business and participating in the economy I am taxed at roughly 39.6% (plus ACA).

If I simply sold you that same amount of stock to you... after a year of holding it.. which does NOTHING for the economy... I would only pay 20%.

Tell me... why do you want to punish me for actually EARNING money and participating in the economy with employees etc?? Why should I pay a higher tax rate than someone that sits on their butt and pushes a button?

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Yes,... it would be taxable and the most they would pay would be 1500 extra dollars. Like I said.. hardly destitution. And they aren't selling stock to pay the tax bill... that's a flat out lie.. they pay the tax bill with the income that they generated with dividends...

IF you are telling me.. that they need that extra 1500 dollars a year.. to "live a comfortable lifestyle"..

Well conservatively 350,000 worth of stock gives them approximately 200 years worth of comfortable living.. ( calculating that they would need to take out roughly 1750 a year to generate 1500 in after tax money)...

See.. your numbers kind of break down here Luther

By the way.. I have no problem with keeping the current rule that under a certain amount you pay no capital gains tax.

Now.. lets talk about taxes on the other end of the spectrum. I own several businesses.. I have lots of employees.. that I pay wage taxes for, so on and so forth. If I generate 1 million in profits.. that's earned income.. so I pay at the highest percentage of earned income (plus the aca amount)...

So owning a business and participating in the economy I am taxed at roughly 39.6% (plus ACA).

If I simply sold you that same amount of stock to you... after a year of holding it.. which does NOTHING for the economy... I would only pay 20%.

Tell me... why do you want to punish me for actually EARNING money and participating in the economy with employees etc?? Why should I pay a higher tax rate than someone that sits on their butt and pushes a button?

Are you somehow or other under the impression that I'm actually advocating for removing the preference treatment on capital gains?

Anyway, it's nice of you to decide that Mr. and Mrs. Example don't really need that $1500 so they should give it to the government. I'm sure they appreciate it.

That $350k in stock they own is the only cushion those folks have against being straight up at the mercy of whatever hits them. Maybe it's just me but I don't consider working 50 years just so I can sit in a rocking chair and sweat my next utility bill to be much of a retirement and if all you're going to live on is $40k/yr it's not going to be much better than that.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Are you somehow or other under the impression that I'm actually advocating for removing the preference treatment on capital gains?

Anyway, it's nice of you to decide that Mr. and Mrs. Example don't really need that $1500 so they should give it to the government. I'm sure they appreciate it.

That $350k in stock they own is the only cushion those folks have against being straight up at the mercy of whatever hits them. Maybe it's just me but I don't consider working 50 years just so I can sit in a rocking chair and sweat my next utility bill to be much of a retirement and if all you're going to live on is $40k/yr it's not going to be much better than that.

I love the hyperbole.. "the only cushion they have against the next utility bill".

Gotta love that...

we are talking 1500 dollars of extra tax a YEAR... while they are sitting on 350K in stock. AS I point out.. if they divested themselves of only 1750 a year.. that would make up that 1500 in taxes.. FOR 200 years...

Yeah.. somehow I don't think they got to sweat their "next utility bill"...

And no.. I think you are advocating the preferential treatment of capital gains... which means that guys like me who actually own businesses and do something in the economy have to pay way more of a percentage of tax.. than guys sitting on their butt pushing a button. Which by the way does little to help or participate in the economy.

AND that preferential treatment hurts the economy by moving money OUT of businesses... and into the stock market.. which only rarely actually helps the company who stock it is... since most stock trades after the IPO don't involve money going to the company.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

You people arguing against this with the idea that this is something for the middle class and poor are funny, if this wasn't for the top few percent this wouldn't exist. They use all of it but the trickle down that is promised from the right, so little that it doesn't even matter. If your worried about it, I would gladdy use some of this increased tax source to raise SS payments.

I don't think you realize that the world abounds with poor and middle class whose parents have 350K in Exxon stock...

And of course.. these folks have to worry about their next utility bill....

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

I love the hyperbole.. "the only cushion they have against the next utility bill".

Gotta love that...

we are talking 1500 dollars of extra tax a YEAR... while they are sitting on 350K in stock. AS I point out.. if they divested themselves of only 1750 a year.. that would make up that 1500 in taxes.. FOR 200 years...

Yeah.. somehow I don't think they got to sweat their "next utility bill"...

And no.. I think you are advocating the preferential treatment of capital gains... which means that guys like me who actually own businesses and do something in the economy have to pay way more of a percentage of tax.. than guys sitting on their butt pushing a button. Which by the way does little to help or participate in the economy.

AND that preferential treatment hurts the economy by moving money OUT of businesses... and into the stock market.. which only rarely actually helps the company who stock it is... since most stock trades after the IPO don't involve money going to the company.

So your whole argument is "make them pay more so that I can pay less"?

I'd like to say that shocks me but these days it just seems to be par for the course.

These people we're discussing are receiving 40% of their income from money they have already been taxed on (Social Security) and another 40% from a pension that, presumably, they earned while working. The other 10% of their income comes from what amounts to letting other people use their stuff. Yeah, they could have cashed out the stock a few years ago and just stacked $20 bills in a shoebox in their closet and not let anybody touch it but they didn't do that. They figured that other people could put that money to work and are content to get somewhere around 3%/yr in return. That seems pretty damned fair to me and I just don't see how them not paying taxes is screwing you.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

I don't think you realize that the world abounds with poor and middle class whose parents have 350K in Exxon stock...

And of course.. these folks have to worry about their next utility bill....

You'd probably be surprised. If, in 1980, you purchased 250 shares of XOM for $15k that stock would be worth $350k today. Don't get me wrong, $15k was a decent chunk of money in 1980. It could have bought you a nice luxury car. But it wasn't so much money that an ordinary person couldn't pull it off if they made an effort to do so....and many did.

 

[Fletch]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Simply tax ALL money going into a persons pocket or accounts as income according to the IRS schedules regardless of its origins. If you want to put a limited exemption for gifts of say $100 or under - fine, I can live with that if it spares me the stories about taxing little kids birthday gifts and other red herrings.

Problem solved.

What problem has been solved? (Other than temporarily satisfying the bottomless pit of envy that is the American left)

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

It never made sense to me that money you actually work for should be taxed at a higher rate than money you didn't work for. Tax it as regular income. Still let people to deduct losses.

 

[jbander]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

Yes,... it would be taxable and the most they would pay would be 1500 extra dollars. Like I said.. hardly destitution. And they aren't selling stock to pay the tax bill... that's a flat out lie.. they pay the tax bill with the income that they generated with dividends...

IF you are telling me.. that they need that extra 1500 dollars a year.. to "live a comfortable lifestyle"..

Well conservatively 350,000 worth of stock gives them approximately 200 years worth of comfortable living.. ( calculating that they would need to take out roughly 1750 a year to generate 1500 in after tax money)...

See.. your numbers kind of break down here Luther

By the way.. I have no problem with keeping the current rule that under a certain amount you pay no capital gains tax.

Now.. lets talk about taxes on the other end of the spectrum. I own several businesses.. I have lots of employees.. that I pay wage taxes for, so on and so forth. If I generate 1 million in profits.. that's earned income.. so I pay at the highest percentage of earned income (plus the aca amount)...

So owning a business and participating in the economy I am taxed at roughly 39.6% (plus ACA).

If I simply sold you that same amount of stock to you... after a year of holding it.. which does NOTHING for the economy... I would only pay 20%.

Tell me... why do you want to punish me for actually EARNING money and participating in the economy with employees etc?? Why should I pay a higher tax rate than someone that sits on their butt and pushes a button?

Punish you for living in a country that is literally the best place in the world to start a business, No sympathy. What the hell is wage taxes that you pay. that's a new one on me. Your workers pay taxes on their wages. That's not part of your contribution to this economy but I do see it as a Freudian slip on your perceived value of yourself . You rooting for a tax on your profits no larger then capital gains is typical MONEY MONEY ME FIRST.
As far as business taxes are concerned , they don't need to pay taxes at all, if as a country, that's what we choose. It would create jobs by their ability to compete better in the world market. It would lower the price of products in this country but the big but is the only way it will happen is if it is no net loss in total tax revenue. What John Doe saves in the price of products because of taking away the tax on business, he would pay in increased taxes. By the way Your bloated 39.6 % tax rate is what drives you to keep those dollars off the profit side of the ledger by investing back into your business. Of course on the other hand it drives business to pay their executives 15 million a year on average. Ten times more then any place in the world. They aren't, your not worth it.

 

[ludin]

Re: Capital gains tax should be taxed as income, because, da da, it's income.

There is no evidence, at all, that having capital gains taxed as ordinary income reduces investment. As Warren Buffett said, "Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain."

which is also an apples and oranges comparison which he is full of. interest rates in the 60-80's were high as all get out so people like buffet where getting huge returns on their investments. plus on top of that during those time they could right off basically anything and everything. that changed later.

it is bad enough that my 401k is going to be taxed as income which pushes me into a higher tax bracket.
it should be considered a long term capital investment and taxed like that.

you would see a huge dip in home sales as well why? those are taxed as capital gains.
could you imagine selling a home for 100k and then having to pay 35% income tax on it after paying all the closing costs?
you would crush middle income home sales.

and yes people would curb their investment if they were paying 30-40% of their gains to the government it isn't worth the risk.
only a moron would continue to invest in those conditions.