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Can you give me any reason why the top 50% shouldn't pay 85-90% of all taxes?

What is the source of your second income?

Military retirement.

All income is wages.

Incorrect.

My military retirement is income, but it is not wages and therefore not subject to FICA.

Interest on my CD's is income, but not subject to FICA.

Dividends on our small amount of stocks is income, but not subject to FICA.

When I retire fully and draw mony out of my 401K that will be income, but not subject to FICA.

Capital gains, isn’t currently classified as such but should be. So should inheritance and all other sources of income.

So you agree not everyone pays FICA. Which is what I said.

No, what you previously implied was that FICA applied to income.

It doesn't, it only applies.

Now there are some government employees (selected state or local) that do not pay the SS portion of FICA because that government entity opt'ed out of SS and setup their own retirement system.

Medicare, which is also part of FICA is also has tiers. The only employees currently not paying the Medicare portion of FICA are those that were exempt in 1986 and have been in continous employment since then. That was almost 40 years ago, so you can imagine that the number of people in that group is tiny.

Also remember, that the only reason the entity they worked for could opt out of SS and Medicare in 1986 was because the entity had a program at least as good. So those employees were still paying, just into a different system.

WW
 
Military retirement.
That isn’t income, that’s a pension.
Incorrect.
Objectively correct.
My military retirement is income, but it is not wages and therefore not subject to FICA.
It’s not income. It’s a retirement pension.
Interest on my CD's is income, but not subject to FICA.
It should be.
Dividends on our small amount of stocks is income, but not subject to FICA.
It should be.
When I retire fully and draw mony out of my 401K that will be income, but not subject to FICA.
It should be.
No, what you previously implied was that FICA applied to income.
Which it is.
It doesn't, it only applies.
To come.
Now there are some government employees (selected state or local) that do not pay the SS portion of FICA because that government entity opt'ed out of SS and setup their own retirement system.
I know. That’s what I said.
Medicare, which is also part of FICA is also has tiers. The only employees currently not paying the Medicare portion of FICA are those that were exempt in 1986 and have been in continous employment since then. That was almost 40 years ago, so you can imagine that the number of people in that group is tiny.

Also remember, that the only reason the entity they worked for could opt out of SS and Medicare in 1986 was because the entity had a program at least as good. So those employees were still paying, just into a different system.

WW
All income no matter the source should be subject to FICA.
 
That isn’t income, that’s a pension.

It is income and therefore subject to Income Tax.

Pensions are income.

Objectively correct.

No, objectively incorrect.

Military retirement is income, therefore subject to Income Tax.

Military retire is a pension, therefore NOT subject to FICA which is only on wage not incomes.

All income no matter the source should be subject to FICA.

You view of what "should be" is fine.

However it does not reflect current reality of "what is".

WW
 
Someone asked this question in another thread, and it's a good question, and I feel it deserves its own thread instead of getting buried.



1) Because then half the country can vote for endless government spending with no cost to themselves. That severs the link between citizenship and responsibility.

2) When most people don't pay taxes, they’ll always demand more programs and subsidies since someone else is footing the bill. That's why we have runaway spending and a $37 trillion national debt.

3) When you tax something you get less of it. Punishing the most productive members of society with nearly all the taxes shrinks the pie for everyone. And remember, economic growth compounds just like interest - shave even a little off yearly growth, and over decades you've destroyed trillions in future wealth:



4) Basic fairness. When a group splits a pizza, only a fool, or a communist, says everyone should chip in "according to their ability" like a goddamn Marxist instead of paying their share.

This is one ****ed up post.
What about when only one group eats a pizza? The rest just watch with hunger in their bellies
 
It sure as hell is income.
It is simply, misguidedly, not taxable income.

Militart Retirement is taxable income.

It's not subject to FICA because it's not wages, but it is still subject to Income Tax.

WW
 
income no matter the source should be subject to FICA.

And there should be no upper end cut off.
That is yet another get over for the comfortable.
 
1) Because then half the country can vote for endless government spending with no cost to themselves.
The statement assumes a direct, one-to-one relationship between tax burden and voting behavior. It implies that a person's decision to vote for or against government spending is solely or primarily determined by whether they personally pay for it through federal income tax. There is zero evidence that people in the bottom 50% vote so they can benefit from "endless government spending".

When most people don't pay taxes
Most people do pay taxes, sales tax, state and local taxes, and payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare) and depending on your state there can be other fees (e.g. Maryland has a fire and rescue fee that is tacked on to your registration). And those taxes can be very significant portion of a persons income.
When you tax something you get less of it. Punishing the most productive members of society with nearly all the taxes shrinks the pie for everyone. And remember, economic growth compounds just like interest - shave even a little off yearly growth, and over decades you've destroyed trillions in future wealth:
This is silly supply side nonsense. We can just flip this around and point the bottom 50% spend close to 100% of the income they receive. By increasing taxes on this group the result is that the bottom 50% will spend less, dollar for dollar, or perhaps even more than dollar for dollar, as there are other carry on effects that can result. The same is not true of the top 50%, specially, the top 10%. From experience, if I were to come into $50k, I wouldn't run out and spend it, I would save it. Savings, by definition is not spending, savings does not increase demand. While it takes investment (a form of savings) to create businesses, Investment relies on demand, this policy would reduce overall demand and increase investment, which would likely look for returns outside this country.

To say nothing of how less money in the bottom 50% would result in increased homelessness, children without access to education and medical care, increases in crime....and on and on and on, all of which have costs, and those costs are likely to far exceed the amount that might be collected from the bottom 50%.

Basic fairness. When a group splits a pizza, only a fool, or a communist, says everyone should chip in "according to their ability" like a goddamn Marxist instead of paying their share.
Only a Libertarian would say that 2 people in the group should be able to buy the whole pizza and threaten to let everyone else starve unless they agree to be ruthlessly exploited, AND since there's only enough for 4 other people and there are ten people in the group, 4 people will be left out resulting in complete chaos, infighting, violence and harm as 8 people fight for 4 spots.

What a morally bankrupt, abhorrent and disgusting view.
 
  • Pertaining to federal income taxes.

  • So as far as income tax the top earners are paying the bulk of taxes. According to data, the top 50% paid 97.7% of all federal income tax.
  • The top 1% paid 25.99% of the tax.

  • In 2020, taxpayers filed 157.5 million tax returns, reported earning nearly $12.5 trillion in adjusted gross income (AGI), and paid $1.7 trillion in individual income taxes.
  • The average income tax rate in 2020 was 13.6 percent. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.99 percent average rate, more than eight times higher than the 3.1 percent average rate paid by the bottom half of taxpayers.
  • The top 1 percent’s income share rose from 20.1 percent in 2019 to 22.2 percent in 2020 and its share of federal income taxes paid rose from 38.8 percent to 42.3 percent.
  • The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97.7 percent of all federal individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 2.3 percent.
  • The 2020 figures include pandemic-related tax items such as the non-refundable part of the first two rounds of Recovery Rebates and the $10,200 unemployment compensation exclusion.
  • The newly released report covers Tax Year 2022 (for tax forms filed in 2023). The newest data reveals that the top 1% of earners, defined as those with incomes over $663,164, paid nearly 40.43% of all income taxes—marking a significant drop from the previous tax year, as the economy improved in the wake of the pandemic and economic shutdown. This was a drop of 5 points (12% lower) than in 2021 when the top 1% paid nearly 46% of all income taxes.
So how unfair is the tax system? The bottom 50 are paying almost none. You only wanted them to pay 85 - 90%. They are paying far more.
This is the problem with people who don't do the research.
Obviously if rich people were smarter, they’d just make less money and enjoy the good life that the bottom 50% revel in.
 
Another quick point. Aren't we told that raising taxes on the wealthy will result in the wealthy no longer willing to work?

Why doesn't this same idea apply at the bottom, when the bottoms TOTAL tax burden is a significant portion of their income (much, much more than the wealthy pay in proportion to their incomes), won't the people in the bottom 50% refuse to work? Who's going to work in those factories that all the extra investment is going to want to build?

Ooooooooh Yeahhhh, the wealthy know that the bottom 50% will have to work, if they don't they will starve!!!

The problem with that idea, is that you can crime tax free. So why work a legit job, when you can crime tax free!!!

The wealthy will retreat to protected compounds behind high walls. Maybe the wealthy can create a surveillance state like China so they can keep the poors in check.

That sounds like the nation I want to live in /sarcasm off.

How does people not understand that this is the world that extreme Libertarian policies will result in.
 
So how unfair is the tax system? The bottom 50 are paying almost none. You only wanted them to pay 85 - 90%. They are paying far more.
This is the problem with people who don't do the research.
Wrong.

You are pointing out marginal rates, and excluding all the income that avoids 100% of taxation. I'm not a millionaire (yet), but I know several, and they all point out how there are an insane number of ways to shelter their money from taxation. In many cases the extent of the amount of money that is allowed to remain untaxed is not captured by your statistics. If the real amount of money that the people at the top were accumulating each year really known, we'd see their taxes paid as share of their income decline.

And it's worth pointing out, that if your right and the wealthy are so burdened by taxes, then why is the wealth of the top 1% accelerating not declining relative to everyone else? Why is the top 1% share been steadily increasing?

Spoiler alert, because the tax figures are not representing the reality.

Again, only a Libertarian could think that a higher tax rate at the top could result in ever increasing wealth while pearl clutching about how unfair it is and they deserve to have even more....

And just for the record. I'm not in the bottom 50% or anywhere near it so this isn't an argument made out of self-interest (in that I want to convince others not to increase my tax burden), in fact, quite the opposite. I mean, unless wanting to live in a flourishing society is considered self-interest.
 
We're talking Income tax. The old "yeah, but they pay OTHER taxes" is pointless. Also, doesn't the employer match that?
Yes, and FICA is the first and an unavoidable tax on income for most income earners.
And yes, the employer match was recognized in the post you're referring to.
 
Talking INCOME TAX. Try to keep up. Employers match their employees FICA, too.
Except the thread title refers to "all taxes."

Well, ideally, the top 30% should pay 90% or more of the income taxes, AND there should rarely be any Federal budget deficits.
 
Except the thread title refers to "all taxes."

Well, ideally, the top 30% should pay 90% or more of the income taxes, AND there should rarely be any Federal budget deficits.t
That's idiotic, not "ideally". When interest requires 60% or more of annual revenue that's going to be hard.
 
Except the thread title refers to "all taxes."

Well, ideally, the top 30% should pay 90% or more of the income taxes, AND there should rarely be any Federal budget deficits.
Now you're back to income taxes? Coincidentally the top 25% already DO pay almost that much in income taxes.

Here's a breakdown from chat-gpt

Income Quintile% of Total Income Tax PaidEstimated Tax Paid
Lowest 20% (bottom)~ 2% (or slightly negative net liability)≈ $48 billion
2nd quintile (21–40%)~ 4%≈ $96 billion
Estimated 3rd quintile(data not detailed in sources)
4th quintile (61–80%)~ 13% (approx.)≈ $312 billion
Top 20% (highest quint.)~ 81%

a little more detail on uber earners



op Shares in More Detail





  • Top 10% of earners paid ~72% of federal income taxes, representing about $1.7 trillion .
  • Top 5% paid about 61% (~ $1.3 trillion) .
  • Top 1% alone paid ~40.4%, a share far larger than their share of AGI—highlighting the system’s progressivity
 
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Wealth (aside from property) isn't taxed. Income is.

And the wealthy aren't "hoarding" anything. Their wealth is invested in corporations and other assets.
And buying up all the entry level homes so that everybody gets to rent for their whole lives. Keeps the dirty poor from getting their hands on the only capital most Americans own or worse leaving to to their children so they have a shot of getting off the rental treadmill.
 
That's idiotic, not "ideally". When interest requires 60% or more of annual revenue that's going to be hard.
That makes no sense at all, why would you want interest to ever require 60% or more of the revenue?
 
That makes no sense at all, why would you want interest to ever require 60% or more of the revenue?
I WOULDN'T WANT" but that's what we've got. I'm sure you know that bonds require periodic interest payments and reimbursement in full at the end of the period. And we still need the money for the rest of government operations.
 
Now you're back to income taxes? Coincidentally the top 25% already DO pay almost that much in income taxes.

Here's a breakdown from chat-gpt


Income Quintile% of Total Income Tax PaidEstimated Tax Paid
Lowest 20% (bottom)~ 2% (or slightly negative net liability)≈ $48 billion
2nd quintile (21–40%)~ 4%≈ $96 billion
Estimated 3rd quintile(data not detailed in sources)
4th quintile (61–80%)~ 13% (approx.)≈ $312 billion
Top 20% (highest quint.)~ 81%

a little more detail on uber earners



op Shares in More Detail





  • Top 10% of earners paid ~72% of federal income taxes, representing about $1.7 trillion .
  • Top 5% paid about 61% (~ $1.3 trillion) .
  • Top 1% alone paid ~40.4%, a share far larger than their share of AGI—highlighting the system’s progressivity
Yes, almost but as I said, or more.
Imagine, if income taxes were applied to gross income with no deductions at all.
How much tax revenue would be collected?
 
I WOULDN'T WANT" but that's what we've got. I'm sure you know that bonds require periodic interest payments and reimbursement in full at the end of the period. And we still need the money for the rest of government operations.
If there was no budget deficit, would we need to sell interest bearing bonds?
 
If there was no budget deficit, would we need to sell interest bearing bonds?
Probably. Or humongous taxes. Understand the deficit would still have to be dealt with.
 
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