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Can pro life defend their position

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jaeger19

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So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.
 
jaeger19 said:
So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.
Click to expand...
I find Trump supporters mostly live in a black and white world. Nuances are details are challenging. It’s like want to fix immigration, just build a wall stupid.
 
jaeger19 said:
So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.
Click to expand...
They can't.
 
jaeger19 said:
So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.
Click to expand...
I personally am pro-life, but for clarity's sake, see the need for choice.
This certainly is a situation that would fall into the latter category.

You already mentioned that if she went through with an abortion, it would cause paralysis or death. Seems to me the answer to your question would be easy for a pro-lifer. No, she wouldn't be committing murder.
 
jaeger19 said:
So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.
Click to expand...
They aren't pro life, they are pro fetus.
 
This might belong in the Abortion sub.

And FWIW, most who call themselves pro-life aren't pro-life across the board. They're anti-choice. Many are pro-death penalty, vote for those who will attempt to reduce or eliminate programs that feed and house the needy, would rather see people turned back to starve in their own countries than come here and get help, etc., etc. which obviously aren't pro-life positions.
 
trixare4kids said:
I personally am pro-life, but for clarity's sake, see the need for choice.
This certainly is a situation that would fall into the latter category.

You already mentioned that if she went through with an abortion, it would cause paralysis or death. Seems to me the answer to your question would be easy for a pro-lifer. No, she wouldn't be committing murder.
Click to expand...
If she went through with pregnancy it would likely cause paralysis or death.
 
EnchantedMuggle said:
This might belong in the Abortion sub.

And FWIW, most who call themselves pro-life aren't pro-life across the board. They're anti-choice. Many are pro-death penalty, vote for those who will attempt to reduce or eliminate programs that feed and house the needy, would rather see people turned back to starve in their own countries than come here and get help, etc., etc. which obviously aren't pro-life positions.
Click to expand...
Well my point with this is to reach as many as possible and have real discussion without the posturing and slogans.
I own medical facilities in states with abortion bans and border states without them.

These anti abortion laws are causing real harm and it appears are having the unintended consequence of increasing the number of abortions.
 
zincwarrior said:
Do not forget there are those who are personally strongly pro-life, but also against government interference.
Click to expand...
And that I respect. We have patients that are willing to risk the consequences of high risk pregnancies because of their faith.
Sometimes they end up changing their minds as the pregnancy continues and the risks become more definite.
However they are not making those medical decisions for others.
 
🍿 🪑 ... Let me know if anyone wants some popcorn with me for this show, and be sure to pull up a chair.

For the thread, these conversations based on anecdotal evidence, or some scenario, rarely if ever end well. The conversation about whatever condition ends up clouding the intention of a debate on the government being involved in a pregnancy, or leaving this to the mother and her doctor to contend with, or somewhere in the middle.

But perhaps more importantly those that have strong pro-life (pro-birth) concerns are not interested in defending their position from someone who opposes them, no matter if confined to a scenario or generally speaking for this subject. How can anyone be objective enough to fairly judge a strong defense or weak defense of opposition position on this?
 
trixare4kids said:
I personally am pro-life, but for clarity's sake, see the need for choice.
This certainly is a situation that would fall into the latter category.

You already mentioned that if she went through with an abortion, it would cause paralysis or death. Seems to me the answer to your question would be easy for a pro-lifer. No, she wouldn't be committing murder.
Click to expand...

So it is okay to kill some “innocent babies” if the mother has had a very bad experience?
 
So called "pro-life" people are usually "pro forced-birth". They don't really care much about children once they are born. As long as they aren't gay or trans - THEN they want to control what they do, who they marry, etc.
 
BabaVoss said:
So called "pro-life" people are usually "pro forced-birth". They don't really care much about children once they are born. As long as they aren't gay or trans - THEN they want to control what they do, who they marry, etc.
Click to expand...
Why such a narrow mind? Most pro life thinking people accept reasonable exceptions. Only a very small minority are against abortion in an absolute way.
 
jaeger19 said:
So I wonder if pro life can defend their position.

Here is a true scenario from my past.

I had a 14 year old patient whose parents couldn’t pay their drug bill. So they gave their 14 year old daughter to the local drug gang.
They raped and abused her for several months. Forced her to take drugs and alcohol. Knocked out her teeth to make ……better. And when they got tired of her they beat her and tossed her down some stairs

She came into our hospital with multiple fxs including an open book fracture of the pelvis that required an external fixator to be placed.
She was addicted,malnourished hiv positive and pregnant.

Pregnancy and carrying a baby to second trimester would likely have dire consequences for her including paralysis or death.

So..for pro life crowd. If she chose abortion is she committing murder and her and her physician should face charges?

Please explain in detail why or why not.

Now here is another point.

Current anti abortion laws would place this patient at risk for paralysis and or death

I am curious if any pro life are willing to respond. I have found that they are willing to chant slogans that “abortion is murder”. But very unable to discuss how anti abortion laws actual work for real patients.
Click to expand...
Stop! Just stop! You can't even equate this with the normal pro-life, pro-abortion debate.
 
Yes, this case is rather easy for Pro-Life including those who wish to make it illegal. A better hypothetical is no medical issue for the woman, or a medical issue like sterility.
Thats more of a morality tester.

A Pro-life argument would be that, that potential life is a unique individual, who bears no criminal or legal fault for what occurred. The State has a compelling interest in protecting its life. They might argue that the woman, the child actually, has the ability to put the baby up for adoption.
 
How far along is her pregnancy?

And which state are we talking about?
 
zincwarrior said:
Yes, this case is rather easy for Pro-Life including those who wish to make it illegal. A better hypothetical is no medical issue for the woman, or a medical issue like sterility.
Thats more of a morality tester.

A Pro-life argument would be that, that potential life is a unique individual, who bears no criminal or legal fault for what occurred. The State has a compelling interest in protecting its life. They might argue that the woman, the child actually, has the ability to put the baby up for adoption.
Click to expand...
My morality is that it is evil to use abortion as "birth control." There are many situations that abortion is medically appropriate. Just not as a secondary birth control.

How is it different that getting drunk, driving a car, and killing someone. That action cannot be aborted. It needs to be stopped before it has a chance of occurring.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Why such a narrow mind? Most pro life thinking people accept reasonable exceptions. Only a very small minority are against abortion in an absolute way.
Click to expand...

So you believe there are exceptions in which it’s okay to kill “innocent babies”?
 
Lord of Planar said:
My morality is that it is evil to use abortion as "birth control." There are many situations that abortion is medically appropriate. Just not as a secondary birth control.

How is it different that getting drunk, driving a car, and killing someone. That action cannot be aborted. It needs to be stopped before it has a chance of occurring.
Click to expand...

And if someone does take precautions and still gets pregnant?
 
Questerr said:
And if someone does take precautions and still gets pregnant?
Click to expand...
They gambled and lost.

Gambling is a bad habit. If you cannot pay the price if you lose, do not gamble.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Very few, but yes.
Click to expand...

So what’s the point in agonizing over the “innocent babies” part? Even you believe it’s okay to kill them under the right circumstances. They don’t suddenly stop being “innocent” do they?
 
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