Can any of you answer this question about covid-19 deaths?

[TU Curmudgeon]

The federal government pays a bounty for covid-19 deaths. It can be as high as $29,000 plus and extra 20% for medicare - each. No test showing covid-19 is required nor is there any auditing. I've read only 6% of covid-19 deaths did not give other contributing illnesses. As a result, people who have died in car accidents or in hospice care for cancer, COPD and other end of life reasons have been financially rewarded for claiming it was a covid-19 death.

My question is...

Does any other country in the world pay a bonus of tens of thousands of dollars each for reporting deaths as covid-19 deaths - only covid-19 deaths?

I read your question very carefully and after due consideration of the basic postulates underlying it I have reached the conclusion that your question is one that contains so much well aged bovine excrement that you must have inadvertently copied it from a propaganda site run by a blithering idiot of a troll who is totally out of touch with reality but who blindly believes whatever they are told to believe by Mr. Trump and his minions.

I suggest that you vet your sources a bit more carefully.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You guys have spent 4 years insisting that Trump literally shoveling money into his properties bears no ethical problems but this made up bull**** that smears doctors, nurses, people that are actually trying to stop the spread, this is what you believe.

Jesus you guys hate this country with a passion.

I read the following two items

G.N. in Milwaukee, WI, writes: People seem to be missing the most significant issue with Donald Trump claiming that he lied to avoid a panic. The issue with that argument is that he claimed China lied about the virus and he wants people to hold them accountable for it. But now he's claiming he did the same thing. Shouldn't we hold him accountable?

and

J.P. in Bangor, ME, writes: I am surprised that no one has publicly connected the dots regarding Donald Trump's obvious down playing of the COVID-19 risks over the last several months.

Trump's net worth (whatever it is) is comprised of a mix of annuity income from branding (allowing the Trump name to be used on a development) and outright ownership of hotels and resorts. The shift towards branding made great sense since virtually every property he owned and operated ended up in default and/or bankruptcy. But his actual holdings are still considerable (think Trump hotels like the one in DC, and his variety of golf courses) and likely form the vast majority of his assets. All of these occupancy- and tourism-dependent properties are entirely dependent on cash flow, with large operating costs and, like restaurants, are only financially viable when operating fairly close to capacity.

There is no question that all of these properties have been hemorrhaging money since March. Whether his cash flow from his branding business is sufficient to keep them afloat is unknown, but highly unlikely since numerous branded properties have ended the relationship during his disastrous tenure as president.

The entire downplaying of the COVID-19 risks is likely pure personal financial panic regarding the mounting losses at these properties and the need to restore tourism and resort traffic.

At some point he will have insufficient cash flow to keep paying his vendors. There is the possibility of some occasional cash advances to tide him over from a friendly oligarch or two, but the banking system is much tighter than it used to be and it would be difficult, if not impossible. to keep this secret.

I expect the shoe (more likely multiple shoes) to drop any day regarding vendor defaults at some of these resorts. It will be a close call whether he can keep this out of the news until Election Day. Whether or not he wins the election, this news will likely start tricking out shortly thereafter.

Like everything else about his presidency, the COVID-19 response is all about Donald. He is ambitious beyond his competence, he is overextended, he is losing money, and he is in trouble. Anyone who has paid attention to his career has seen this movie multiple times before. It's surprising that this it's not more widely recognized.
(source for both is the 13 SEP 20 page of electoral-vote.com)
​

earlier today and thought that you might find them interesting.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Fact check: Medicare pays hospitals more money for COVID-19 patients

Please explain exactly how "getting paid more" (especially when the condition requires more time, staff, and physical resources) is absolutely identical to a "bounty"?

 

[Aunt Antifa]

I read the following two items

G.N. in Milwaukee, WI, writes: People seem to be missing the most significant issue with Donald Trump claiming that he lied to avoid a panic. The issue with that argument is that he claimed China lied about the virus and he wants people to hold them accountable for it. But now he's claiming he did the same thing. Shouldn't we hold him accountable?

and

J.P. in Bangor, ME, writes: I am surprised that no one has publicly connected the dots regarding Donald Trump's obvious down playing of the COVID-19 risks over the last several months.

Trump's net worth (whatever it is) is comprised of a mix of annuity income from branding (allowing the Trump name to be used on a development) and outright ownership of hotels and resorts. The shift towards branding made great sense since virtually every property he owned and operated ended up in default and/or bankruptcy. But his actual holdings are still considerable (think Trump hotels like the one in DC, and his variety of golf courses) and likely form the vast majority of his assets. All of these occupancy- and tourism-dependent properties are entirely dependent on cash flow, with large operating costs and, like restaurants, are only financially viable when operating fairly close to capacity.

There is no question that all of these properties have been hemorrhaging money since March. Whether his cash flow from his branding business is sufficient to keep them afloat is unknown, but highly unlikely since numerous branded properties have ended the relationship during his disastrous tenure as president.

The entire downplaying of the COVID-19 risks is likely pure personal financial panic regarding the mounting losses at these properties and the need to restore tourism and resort traffic.

At some point he will have insufficient cash flow to keep paying his vendors. There is the possibility of some occasional cash advances to tide him over from a friendly oligarch or two, but the banking system is much tighter than it used to be and it would be difficult, if not impossible. to keep this secret.

I expect the shoe (more likely multiple shoes) to drop any day regarding vendor defaults at some of these resorts. It will be a close call whether he can keep this out of the news until Election Day. Whether or not he wins the election, this news will likely start tricking out shortly thereafter.

Like everything else about his presidency, the COVID-19 response is all about Donald. He is ambitious beyond his competence, he is overextended, he is losing money, and he is in trouble. Anyone who has paid attention to his career has seen this movie multiple times before. It's surprising that this it's not more widely recognized.
(source for both is the 13 SEP 20 page of electoral-vote.com)
​

earlier today and thought that you might find them interesting.

I did! Thank you.

Putting aside all the malice, this is one of the DUMBEST campaigns run, maybe the dumbest ever. And it’s all because Trump is a stupid guy now with an added layer of dementia. He cannot retain which lie he is telling anymore, which reality he wants us to prefer. In example: he spent part of his plague-spreading event last night telling his doods how weak and wimpy the antifas are. LOR AND ORDER. RIOTERS. CORY BOOKER!!! All thrown away in one shot because the tottering rapist president of this country just wants the laugh line. And that’s how stupid he *really* is: they’re his apostles. He can get the laughs without flushing his entire campaign slogan down the toilet.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I did! Thank you.

Putting aside all the malice, this is one of the DUMBEST campaigns run, maybe the dumbest ever. And it’s all because Trump is a stupid guy now with an added layer of dementia. He cannot retain which lie he is telling anymore, which reality he wants us to prefer. In example: he spent part of his plague-spreading event last night telling his doods how weak and wimpy the antifas are. LOR AND ORDER. RIOTERS. CORY BOOKER!!! All thrown away in one shot because the tottering rapist president of this country just wants the laugh line. And that’s how stupid he *really* is: they’re his apostles. He can get the laughs without flushing his entire campaign slogan down the toilet.

Mr. Trump castigated Mr. Obama for his "abysmal", "weak and pathetic response" to the H1N1 crisis (in which approximately 12,469 (range: 8868-18,306) people in the US died. So far

​

approximately 198,562 people have died from COVID-19 in the US.

I wonder what 1/16[sup]th[/sup] of an abysmally weak and pathetic response is. Do you know?

 

[year2late]

The federal government pays a bounty for covid-19 deaths. It can be as high as $29,000 plus and extra 20% for medicare - each. No test showing covid-19 is required nor is there any auditing. I've read only 6% of covid-19 deaths did not give other contributing illnesses. As a result, people who have died in car accidents or in hospice care for cancer, COPD and other end of life reasons have been financially rewarded for claiming it was a covid-19 death.

My question is...

Does any other country in the world pay a bonus of tens of thousands of dollars each for reporting deaths as covid-19 deaths - only covid-19 deaths?

I suggest you educate yourself on how patients with patients on medicare are reimbursed for hospitalization

I am a critical care nurse and see the effects of severe pulmonary disease on these patients and the hospital/

I have been at the bedside in critical care for 38 years. This disease is different. The toll it takes on patients and the hospitals is different. The expenditure by the hospitals caring for these patients is different. We use more staff, more equipment, more drugs. Even the ones that do not need a ventilator. The length of stay is different.

An additional 29,000 and 39,000 a hospital gets pales in comparison to the real cost - many of these patients have months long hospital stay with signiificant ICU time. In addition, since this pandemic has stretched the hospital staff -the hospitals need high priced registry staff to cover...shooting up the costs more.


On top of that, hospital workers are contracting the infection at work. Add that to the expense..


It is not a bonus. It is helping them stay afloat during a pandemic that is stretching the resources of hospitals.

 

[CaughtInThe]

if that dude hasn't taken up with the Q nut jobs i'd be shocked.

 

[pamak]

I agree with you that its very likely the numbers are being skewed because there is a financial incentive too.
All im saying is if say over the past 10 years that generally 1M people die for health related reasons and this year we lost 1.01M people. That .01 number is probably closer to.the real number of deaths due to covid

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The problem is that such belief cannot explain the available data. Is anybody making the claim that the US (including red state) are way more corrupt than Europeans like the Greeks who by the way have a veryyyyyyyy low death rate after they imposed a very strict lockdown?

Greece Coronavirus: 13,420 Cases and 310 Deaths - Worldometer

Only 310 deaths within a population of 10 million and half of this population is concetrated in just one city, Athens!

The other problem is that the coroner or doctor who makes the decision about the cause of death has no incentive to lie and risk his career because none of any money reaches his pocket! The fact that a hospital with more cornovirus patients will naturally receive more money to cover the cost does not establish a reasonable belief that such money affects the coroner's or a doctor's decision. The employment contracts are what determine the compensation.

And lastly, the EXCESS deaths cannot be explained by believing that a corrupt system simply shifts regular deaths to coronovirus linked deaths! Such tactic would not contribute at all to excess deaths.

 

[bongsaway]

I will take that as a "no other country offers a bounty for claiming a death was caused by covid-19."

The statistics given for the USA on covid-19 deaths are lies - deliberate, paid for lies.

Take it any way you want most people dismiss your looniness.

 

[George50]

I suggest you educate yourself on how patients with patients on medicare are reimbursed for hospitalization

I am a critical care nurse and see the effects of severe pulmonary disease on these patients and the hospital/

I have been at the bedside in critical care for 38 years. This disease is different. The toll it takes on patients and the hospitals is different. The expenditure by the hospitals caring for these patients is different. We use more staff, more equipment, more drugs. Even the ones that do not need a ventilator. The length of stay is different.

An additional 29,000 and 39,000 a hospital gets pales in comparison to the real cost - many of these patients have months long hospital stay with signiificant ICU time. In addition, since this pandemic has stretched the hospital staff -the hospitals need high priced registry staff to cover...shooting up the costs more.


On top of that, hospital workers are contracting the infection at work. Add that to the expense..


It is not a bonus. It is helping them stay afloat during a pandemic that is stretching the resources of hospitals.

To add another item to your list, many hospitals have had to make costly changes to their facilities in order to isolate Covid-19 patients and prevent asymptomatic patients in non COVID areas from infecting each other.


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[jaeger19]

To add another item to your list, many hospitals have had to make costly changes to their facilities in order to isolate Covid-19 patients and prevent asymptomatic patients in non COVID areas from infecting each other.


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Well and if it hasn;t been said alreadyl... not only do hospitals have increased costs because of covid and SUSPECTED covid cases.. but we have also had to shut down or decrease elective surgeries.. which are a hospitals bread and butter when it comes to profitable activities.

 

[trouble13]

The problem is that such belief cannot explain the available data. Is anybody making the claim that the US (including red state) are way more corrupt than Europeans like the Greeks who by the way have a veryyyyyyyy low death rate after they imposed a very strict lockdown?

Greece Coronavirus: 13,420 Cases and 310 Deaths - Worldometer

Only 310 deaths within a population of 10 million and half of this population is concetrated in just one city, Athens!

The other problem is that the coroner or doctor who makes the decision about the cause of death has no incentive to lie and risk his career because none of any money reaches his pocket! The fact that a hospital with more cornovirus patients will naturally receive more money to cover the cost does not establish a reasonable belief that such money affects the coroner's or a doctor's decision. The employment contracts are what determine the compensation.

And lastly, the EXCESS deaths cannot be explained by believing that a corrupt system simply shifts regular deaths to coronovirus linked deaths! Such tactic would not contribute at all to excess deaths.

How do you explain the deaths or don't you?

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[Thom Paine]

The federal government pays a bounty for covid-19 deaths. It can be as high as $29,000 plus and extra 20% for medicare - each. No test showing covid-19 is required nor is there any auditing. I've read only 6% of covid-19 deaths did not give other contributing illnesses. As a result, people who have died in car accidents or in hospice care for cancer, COPD and other end of life reasons have been financially rewarded for claiming it was a covid-19 death.

My question is...

Does any other country in the world pay a bonus of tens of thousands of dollars each for reporting deaths as covid-19 deaths - only covid-19 deaths?

Here ya' go Joko104

From a USA Today Fact Check entry...

The claim: Hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19, and on ventilators

Sen. Scott Jensen, R-Minn., a physician in Minnesota, was interviewed by "The Ingraham Angle" host Laura Ingraham on April 8 on Fox News and claimed hospitals get paid more if Medicare patients are listed as having COVID-19 and get three times as much money if they need a ventilator.

The claim was published April 9 by The Spectator, a conservative publication. WorldNetDaily shared it April 10 and, according to Snopes, a related meme was shared on social media in mid-April.

Jensen took it to his own Facebook page April 15, saying, in part:

"How can anyone not believe that increasing the number of COVID-19 deaths may create an avenue for states to receive a larger portion of federal dollars. Already some states are complaining that they are not getting enough of the CARES Act dollars because they are having significantly more proportional COVID-19 deaths."

(Continued at link)




Our ruling: True

We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.

Fact check: Medicare pays hospitals more money for COVID-19 patients

 

[pamak]

How do you explain the deaths or don't you?

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I explain the excess deaths in the US as a result of the failed policies to contain the spread of the pandemic within the US. If you find a better explanation, please say it, but the explanantion of the OP that supposedly coroners and doctors misidentity the causes of deaths for financial reasons does not make sense for the reasons I explained in my previous post.

 

[Thom Paine]

Citation?

Fact check: Medicare pays hospitals more money for COVID-19 patients

 

[pamak]

Fact check: Medicare pays hospitals more money for COVID-19 patients

Read again your link and please quote the part where it says that hospitals are paid more for listing more DEATHS

The claim (if true) is that hospitals are paid more for treating covid patients. There is no profit for misatributing deaths.

If hospital administrations make decisions based on corrupt intend, then they have an incentive to show many more CASES of infected people (including people who have common cold and are not really infected by the coronavirus) and show lower mortality rate and STILL get the profit of treating a coronovirus patient.

This by the way can explain another reason for the low death to cases ratios in the US that some conservatives think is sooo important and continue mentioning it.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Fact check: Medicare pays hospitals more money for COVID-19 patients

Quite right. It pays more for patients with "Condition "A" and "Condition B" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A".

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", and "Condition C" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A" and "Condition B" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", and "Condition D" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A", "Condition B", and "Condition C" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", and "Condition E" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A", "Condition B", "Condition C", and "Condition D" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", "Condition E", and "Condition F" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", and "Condition E" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", "Condition E", "Condition F", and "Condition G" simultaneously than it does for ...
​

So your point is - what?

 

[Thom Paine]

Quite right. It pays more for patients with "Condition "A" and "Condition B" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A".

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", and "Condition C" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A" and "Condition B" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", and "Condition D" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A", "Condition B", and "Condition C" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", and "Condition E" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A", "Condition B", "Condition C", and "Condition D" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", "Condition E", and "Condition F" simultaneously than it does for patients that have only "Condition A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", and "Condition E" at the same time.

And it pays more for patients with "Condition "A", "Condition B", "Condition C", "Condition D", "Condition E", "Condition F", and "Condition G" simultaneously than it does for ...
​

So your point is - what?

Where did I make a point, OR make a claim?
I supplied a link to reference what I expect the OP was referencing.
Just tryin' to be helpful... -shrug-

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Where did I make a point, OR make a claim?
I supplied a link to reference what I expect the OP was referencing.
Just tryin' to be helpful... -shrug-

OK, so make that "So -your- the point is - what?".

 

[Thom Paine]

OK, so make that "So -your- the point is - what?".

The point is ..... wait for it ...................... ya' ready ?
The provided link is only to assist those who asked for citation of the OP.
None was furnished.
The link was to assist those wanting more data basis...
tried to help the thread; not enter a set to.
nice eve atcha' TUC

 

[trouble13]

I explain the excess deaths in the US as a result of the failed policies to contain the spread of the pandemic within the US. If you find a better explanation, please say it, but the explanantion of the OP that supposedly coroners and doctors misidentity the causes of deaths for financial reasons does not make sense for the reasons I explained in my previous post.

Just my opinion but common sense tells me that the people who interact with others the most are gonna experience the highest outbreaks and vice a versa.

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[Drawdown]

You guys have spent 4 years insisting that Trump literally shoveling money into his properties bears no ethical problems but this made up bull**** that smears doctors, nurses, people that are actually trying to stop the spread, this is what you believe.

Jesus you guys hate this country with a passion.

Actually it is kind of true so it is not "made up bull****". Medicare has always paid extra for patients on ventilators and the CARES Act did offer up 20% increased payments for medicare patients and uninsured COVID patients who get treated for the virus and reimbursed at the enhanced medicare rate.

 

[pamak]

Just my opinion but common sense tells me that the people who interact with others the most are gonna experience the highest outbreaks and vice a versa.

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I have no objection to what you say but I do not see how it is relevant to the OP claim that suppsoedly the US coronovirus death statistics are wrong because hospitals lie in order to get more money.

 

[trouble13]

I have no objection to what you say but I do not see how it is relevant to the OP claim that suppsoedly the US coronovirus death statistics are wrong because hospitals lie in order to get more money.

I wasn't addressing the OP. I addressed your argument that failed policies caused higher rates of infection.
How many people does the average american come into contact with as opposed to the average korean as an example. That is not a policy issue it is a mathematical probability that greater contact leads to more chances of transmission.
The OP also raises a valid point that attaching a financial benefit to covid cases gives people an incentive to claim the virus as the cause of needed services. I personally think the gov should provide some kind of emergency funding where its needed but the way they are going about it does raise legitimate skepticism of how severe the impact of the virus really is.
This is why I think we get a more realistic number by looking at the total morality rate from year to year and look to see if this year has been an anomaly statistically.
Partisans look to beat up their oppositions response but generally speaking I don't see where any of them could of done more than they did. Thats not to say any of them handled it perfectly or they did make some decisions based on political calculations.

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[pamak]

I wasn't addressing the OP. I addressed your argument that failed policies caused higher rates of infection.
How many people does the average american come into contact with as opposed to the average korean as an example. That is not a policy issue it is a mathematical probability that greater contact leads to more chances of transmission.
The OP also raises a valid point that attaching a financial benefit to covid cases gives people an incentive to claim the virus as the cause of needed services. I personally think the gov should provide some kind of emergency funding where its needed but the way they are going about it does raise legitimate skepticism of how severe the impact of the virus really is.
This is why I think we get a more realistic number by looking at the total morality rate from year to year and look to see if this year has been an anomaly statistically.
Partisans look to beat up their oppositions response but generally speaking I don't see where any of them could of done more than they did. Thats not to say any of them handled it perfectly or they did make some decisions based on political calculations.

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Are you kidding me?

Koreans have much higher population density. Europeans also have a much higher population density.
Exactly this is about mathematical probability. People in big and densely populated cities come to close proximity to more people. So, IF everything else is equal, you would expect to see more cases in densely populated areas. Fortunately for the Koreas, they had a system which provided them with a big difference. They could test trace and isolate many infected people in the crucial beginning stages of the pandemic. So, they had the ability to isolate early infected people so that they could not interact with others and spread the disease farther

The OP did not raise a valid point for the reasons I explained. Repeating those claims without addressing my counterpoints does not make the OP claims stronger.
Start with the fact that there is NO link of linking DEATHS to profit. It is the treatment that brings profits, so there is no reason to misrepresent death statistics for profit!