Can a Christian Community Close the Beach on Sunday Mornings?

[Loulit01]

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand.

In Ocean Grove, where the beach has been controlled by a conservative Christian nonprofit for more than 150 years, no alcohol is sold. The Christian flag, a white banner with a red cross, flies beneath an American flag near the beach. Two wooden crosses stand in the sand. A massive pier in the shape of a cross was unveiled last year. And perhaps most notably, in Ocean Grove, where the welcome sign calls the community “God’s Square Mile,” the beach is closed before noon on Sundays. Next week, a New Jersey court will wrestle with the beach closure and whether the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, which owns the property, has the right to impose religiously motivated restrictions on the public.

Can a Christian Community Close the Beach on Sunday Mornings?

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand.

www.nytimes.com

No pay wall

Here are the parts that make sense to me...

The association has long avoided paying taxes on its beach by dedicating it to the public in 1989 through the state’s Green Acres Program. Mr. Martins believes the association is in violation of the program because it says beach owners cannot restrict the public’s right of access unless it is necessary for maintenance or to preserve natural resources. “If the camp wants the beach to be private, I am happy for them to be private,” Mr. Martins said. “Then they have to pay taxes on it. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

And...

Neighbors are now at odds, said Norma Tolliver, a business owner for 18 years of Main Avenue Gallery, and it has damaged the village-like atmosphere. She thinks people on both sides could adjust. For example, the association could be more sensitive toward people who don’t want to wear a cross on their badge. And people who want the beach open could be sensitive to the association, which hosts worship services in a pavilion close to the beach. “They could section off the beach so people in the pavilion don’t have to look at people in bikinis on the beach,” Ms. Tolliver said. “There could be a compromise.”
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I'm in favor of a reasonable compromise. What do you think?

 

[weaver2]

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand....... I'm in favor of a reasonable compromise. What do you think?

Religious organizations are not noted for their enthusiasm for compromise
The land from the sea to the high tide mark is public property. How come a church controls public property?

 

[Loulit01]

Religious organizations are not noted for their enthusiasm for compromise
The land from the sea to the high tide mark is public property. How come a church controls public property?

They bought about 300 acres of beachfront. Whether they can control it the lawsuit will say.

 

[Risky Thicket]

They bought about 300 acres of beachfront. Whether they can control it the lawsuit will say.

I don't know what the law is in New Jersey but I am surprised it is legal to buy beachfront property all the wayy to the water's edge. If it is legal to own property all the way down to the waterline I'd be inclined to say the church has a logical argument. However, as the church pays no taxes that might make it a different argument.

Personally I am opposed to the idea of selling property to the waterline at high or low tide.

 

[VySky]

Neighbors are now at odds, said Norma Tolliver, a business owner for 18 years of Main Avenue Gallery, and it has damaged the village-like atmosphere.

Funny people like Norma. Move next to an airport then complain about the noise.

 

[VySky]

I don't know what the law is in New Jersey but I am surprised it is legal to buy beachfront property all the wayy to the water's edge. If it is legal to own property all the way down to the waterline I'd be inclined to say the church has a logical argument. However, as the church pays no taxes that might make it a different argument.

Personally I am opposed to the idea of selling property to the waterline at high or low tide.

Interesting. We know who owns the ocean. Remember the surfers who were being arrested during covid? They boated in, anchored and got arrested.

 

[bongsaway]

Remember now, as these folks try to impose their christian will on everyone, Christianity is under attack?

 

[BirdinHand]

I don't know what the law is in New Jersey but I am surprised it is legal to buy beachfront property all the wayy to the water's edge.

You can own the property to the “mean high water” line. (Meaning - where high tide generally comes to)

If it is legal to own property all the way down to the waterline I'd be inclined to say the church has a logical argument. However, as the church pays no taxes that might make it a different argument.

The argument is that they “entrusted” the beach property to open access - so as not to pay taxes on it - but have set religious rules.

Personally I am opposed to the idea of selling property to the waterline at high or low tide.

It’s common practice



Ocean Grove is a - quirky? - beach town. They’ve had several legal challenges brought against them over the years.

 

[Peacenik]

If they want to prevent public access it then becomes a private beach and they need to pay taxes.

 

[BirdinHand]

If they want to prevent public access it then becomes a private beach and they need to pay taxes.

They’ll make the argument that they won’t staff lifeguards or something like that.

Which is fine - that means that WATER is not open, but the beach is.

That’s my guess as to how it will be resolved.

 

[holbritter]

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand.

In Ocean Grove, where the beach has been controlled by a conservative Christian nonprofit for more than 150 years, no alcohol is sold. The Christian flag, a white banner with a red cross, flies beneath an American flag near the beach. Two wooden crosses stand in the sand. A massive pier in the shape of a cross was unveiled last year. And perhaps most notably, in Ocean Grove, where the welcome sign calls the community “God’s Square Mile,” the beach is closed before noon on Sundays. Next week, a New Jersey court will wrestle with the beach closure and whether the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, which owns the property, has the right to impose religiously motivated restrictions on the public.

Can a Christian Community Close the Beach on Sunday Mornings?

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand.

www.nytimes.com

No pay wall

Here are the parts that make sense to me...

The association has long avoided paying taxes on its beach by dedicating it to the public in 1989 through the state’s Green Acres Program. Mr. Martins believes the association is in violation of the program because it says beach owners cannot restrict the public’s right of access unless it is necessary for maintenance or to preserve natural resources. “If the camp wants the beach to be private, I am happy for them to be private,” Mr. Martins said. “Then they have to pay taxes on it. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

And...

Neighbors are now at odds, said Norma Tolliver, a business owner for 18 years of Main Avenue Gallery, and it has damaged the village-like atmosphere. She thinks people on both sides could adjust. For example, the association could be more sensitive toward people who don’t want to wear a cross on their badge. And people who want the beach open could be sensitive to the association, which hosts worship services in a pavilion close to the beach. “They could section off the beach so people in the pavilion don’t have to look at people in bikinis on the beach,” Ms. Tolliver said. “There could be a compromise.”
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I'm in favor of a reasonable compromise. What do you think?

I think if they own the land, it should be changed from a 'public' beach to a private beach and they can say what goes....BUT...they need to be taxed on that land.

 

[holbritter]

Remember now, as these folks try to impose their christian will on everyone, Christianity is under attack?

Not everyone. Those that use their beach.

 

[bongsaway]

Not everyone. Those that use their beach.

If you are not a Christian, you are not welcome. Jesus would approve, no?

 

[holbritter]

If you are not a Christian, you are not welcome. Jesus would approve, no?

Don't know, I'm an agnostic. But that doesn't address your original comment.

 

[gman]

Much depends on the judges ruling citing the provisions of the Green Acres agreement. I don’t think it bodes well for the Camp Association. A deal is a deal.

 

[Lycanthrope]

From the article:

The association argued that it also had secular arguments for beach closure, including giving lifeguards time off, reducing traffic and noise, and allowing visitors to frequent local businesses instead of the beach.

So the religious object to seeing half-naked bodies on the beach on Sunday mornings, but conducting commerce during that time is acceptable?

Apart from that, the bigger issue is whether a religious organization can impose its rules on public land.

 

[bongsaway]

Don't know, I'm an agnostic. But that doesn't address your original comment.

Don't know, I'm an agnostic. But that doesn't address your original comment.

What's wrong with my original comment?

 

[Grand Mal]

I don't know what the law is in New Jersey but I am surprised it is legal to buy beachfront property all the wayy to the water's edge. If it is legal to own property all the way down to the waterline I'd be inclined to say the church has a logical argument. However, as the church pays no taxes that might make it a different argument.

Personally I am opposed to the idea of selling property to the waterline at high or low tide.

Private ownership below the high tide line is unworkable. On a shallow beach that could be a lot of bare sand at low water, on a steeper beach it could involve hazards to navigation.

 

[upsideguy]

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand.

In Ocean Grove, where the beach has been controlled by a conservative Christian nonprofit for more than 150 years, no alcohol is sold. The Christian flag, a white banner with a red cross, flies beneath an American flag near the beach. Two wooden crosses stand in the sand. A massive pier in the shape of a cross was unveiled last year. And perhaps most notably, in Ocean Grove, where the welcome sign calls the community “God’s Square Mile,” the beach is closed before noon on Sundays. Next week, a New Jersey court will wrestle with the beach closure and whether the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, which owns the property, has the right to impose religiously motivated restrictions on the public.

Can a Christian Community Close the Beach on Sunday Mornings?

In Ocean Grove, N.J., a conservative religious organization sets the rules. The state has challenged its right to keep sunbathers off the sand.

www.nytimes.com

No pay wall

Here are the parts that make sense to me...

The association has long avoided paying taxes on its beach by dedicating it to the public in 1989 through the state’s Green Acres Program. Mr. Martins believes the association is in violation of the program because it says beach owners cannot restrict the public’s right of access unless it is necessary for maintenance or to preserve natural resources. “If the camp wants the beach to be private, I am happy for them to be private,” Mr. Martins said. “Then they have to pay taxes on it. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

And...

Neighbors are now at odds, said Norma Tolliver, a business owner for 18 years of Main Avenue Gallery, and it has damaged the village-like atmosphere. She thinks people on both sides could adjust. For example, the association could be more sensitive toward people who don’t want to wear a cross on their badge. And people who want the beach open could be sensitive to the association, which hosts worship services in a pavilion close to the beach. “They could section off the beach so people in the pavilion don’t have to look at people in bikinis on the beach,” Ms. Tolliver said. “There could be a compromise.”
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I'm in favor of a reasonable compromise. What do you think?

Ocean Grove, NJ.... that brings back memories. In late 1970's, I had some high school friends that would annually go here for a beach vacation (from Upstate New York during summer break from college). I joined them one year. I had a great time. We could get a private room in a rooming house about 2 blocks from the (very nice) beach for $5 per night. It was a short walk to Asbury Park (and the Stone Pony), and there were a couple of great clubs to the south.

It is a very quaint old town with deep rooted Methodist connections. The entire town was built in the 1890's(?) around a town park, right on the beach. It was a village, but I believe the village was owned by an association that set the rules. Traditional Methodists were a bit puritan: they do not believe in drinking. I grew up Methodist, and frankly went to Ocean Grove to get some sun, enjoy the beach, drink and chase women. But, Sunday's in Ocean Grove was not for carousing and carrying on.

Ocean Grove had a quaint tradition in that all cars had to be off city streets on Sunday. So, you had to move your car (if you did not have a garage) to a neighboring town and walk back. Apparently, that rule was extended to the beach. I just characterized it as quaint and charming. If they want to close the beach on Sunday morning, well, maybe its not good business, but it adds to the quaint and charming, which can be good business. The beaches are open in Asbury Park and Neptune.

 

[Jason Warfield]

If you own the beach and wish to control it, then don’t a make deal with the local government to keep it public access in exchange for not paying taxes on it.

Once you invitee the government in to gain a benefit from the government…you give the government a say in what you do in some way, shape or form.

And no, not allowing them to close the beach on Sundays before noon infringes on their ability to worship as per the First Amendment.