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Bush Reported to Authorize Leak

mnpollock said:
Because that is what started this whole mess, but in your eyes I'm sure this NEVER had anything to do with her. Typical reasoning of the indoctrinated.

If you want to discuss the Plame outting incident then I'm all ears but quit trying to conflate two distinctly separate issues.

The Libby testimony does not in any way bolster your case that the President or Vice President ordered for the name of Vallery Plame to be dessiminated to Novak and the NYTs.

Furthermore; if you want to get into the Vallery Plame incident I'm all about it skippy, because she was never covert to begin with and to this day not one person has been charged with that crime nor has anyone shown any evidence that anyone has committed that crime.
 
Diavo writes
Fact: We will never know the CIA Damage Assesment secondary to Mrs. Brown's Assets being exposed, and she will never be able to go under again.

It is perfectly obvious that she was not a candidate to 'go under' again at the time the alleged 'outing' occurred. She had already been introduced as Wilson's wife in several public agendas, she was plastered all over his website and identified as his wife, and everybody who knew her knew where she worked. Any anonymity she might have retained was lost when she and/or her husband went looking for any camera or microphone they could find over a period of months and the 100% complete lies told by her and her husband to the press re the circumstances of him going to N iger. Any 'damage' she may have suffered was purely of her (and his) own making. If it had not been for that, she could have just assumed another working name, as all undercover agents do, and engaged in other covert operations.

Having said that, a 'wait and see' mentality is definitely the grown up attitude to take and I do appreciate that. I get frustrated and infuriated at political lynchings by the little people who don't have a clue what actually went down, and don't care about the truth of it anyway, just so long as they can 'get' somebody they don't like or can benefit from it personally in some way.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
If you want to discuss the Plame outting incident then I'm all ears but quit trying to conflate two distinctly separate issues.

The Libby testimony does not in any way bolster your case that the President or Vice President ordered for the name of Vallery Plame to be dessiminated to Novak and the NYTs.

Furthermore; if you want to get into the Vallery Plame incident I'm all about it skippy, because she was never covert to begin with and to this day not one person has been charged with that crime nor has anyone shown any evidence that anyone has committed that crime.

Bush called Plame a "national assett" but forget about her for a second. What about every agent at Bruster Jennings that was outed at the same time in Novak's column? Do you think they weren't put in serious danger by this leak?
 
AlbqOwl said:
Diavo writes


It is perfectly obvious that she was not a candidate to 'go under' again at the time the alleged 'outing' occurred. She had already been introduced as Wilson's wife in several public agendas, she was plastered all over his website and identified as his wife, and everybody who knew her knew where she worked. Any anonymity she might have retained was lost when she and/or her husband went looking for any camera or microphone they could find over a period of months and the 100% complete lies told by her and her husband to the press re the circumstances of him going to N iger. Any 'damage' she may have suffered was purely of her (and his) own making. If it had not been for that, she could have just assumed another working name, as all undercover agents do, and engaged in other covert operations.

That's the spin the Bush administration would like you to believe, it's not fact though. Those claims snowballed through the right wing noise machine, and many erroneously accept them as fact. I challenge you to find evidence to back up the claim that everyone new Plame was an agent.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
The testimony in question has absolutely nothing to do with Vallery Plame so why do you people keep bringing her up???

Firstly, who are "you people"?

Secondly, did you miss this?

Diavo said:
Fact: Scooter is not being prosecuted for "Outting" Valerie Brown. he is being prosecuted for lying

Gee, that seems to say exactly what "US" people had to percieve from your words. YOU ARE RIGHT, Valerie Brown is not in question when it comes to the Charges being levied against Scooter at present. However, that fact does not change the unknown consequences her past foreign assets have been subjected to since she was outted.

AlbqOwl said:
It is perfectly obvious that she was not a candidate to 'go under' again at the time the alleged 'outing' occurred. She had already been introduced as Wilson's wife in several public agendas, she was plastered all over his website and identified as his wife, and everybody who knew her knew where she worked. Any anonymity she might have retained was lost when she and/or her husband went looking for any camera or microphone they could find over a period of months and the 100% complete lies told by her and her husband to the press re the circumstances of him going to N iger. Any 'damage' she may have suffered was purely of her (and his) own making. If it had not been for that, she could have just assumed another working name, as all undercover agents do, and engaged in other covert operations.

Having said that, a 'wait and see' mentality is definitely the grown up attitude to take and I do appreciate that. I get frustrated and infuriated at political lynchings by the little people who don't have a clue what actually went down, and don't care about the truth of it anyway, just so long as they can 'get' somebody they don't like or can benefit from it personally in some way.


Your first paragraph is nothing more than the spin put out by the same guys who let her identity leak out in the first place. It's called "Rationalizing". It's called CYA. It's called trying to make it an Ends Justifies the Means issue. She was eligible to go under again----before political cheap shots compromised her. I am sure the intelligence community is really appreciative knowing that if they don't data mine exactly what the Administration wants, means you either get blamed for failure of policy, or outed for your efforts. I am sure it leaves a real nice taste in their mouths.

This is not a Black and White issue. Quite frankly, waiting to see what the truth is has become the norm when judging the current stewardship of our nation. Every person in the Administration says something different about every subject matter, leaving all who pay attention confused, and the Administration with all bases covered. Right is Wrong & and Wrong is Right. Upside down is rightside up, truth is bad, lying is good----to me it seems as if we are in a long running, very bad episode of the Twilight Zone.
 
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mnpollock said:
Because that is what started this whole mess, but in your eyes I'm sure this NEVER had anything to do with her. Typical reasoning of the indoctrinated.
Did Monica Lewinsky have anything to do with Whitewater? Of course not, but one investigation led to another. To link Valerie Plame with the declassification of the NIE is "typical reasoning of the indoctrinated." It appears that many have read the headlines and opening paragraph of inflammatory news articles, but have not bothered to read the rest. Today's newspapers are notorious for putting the real facts near the bottom of articles.

Jumping to conclusions based on headlines is unfortunately typical of many Americans these days. I am surprised that some on here, whom I assumed to be more politically astute, are doing the same thing. That is very sad.

Question: Did Kennedy break the law when he revealed secret U-2 photos of the missiles in Cuba to the UN?? Both Bush and Kennedy released information to clarify their actions.
 
Gill said:
Did Monica Lewinsky have anything to do with Whitewater? Of course not, but one investigation led to another. To link Valerie Plame with the declassification of the NIE is "typical reasoning of the indoctrinated." It appears that many have read the headlines and opening paragraph of inflammatory news articles, but have not bothered to read the rest. Today's newspapers are notorious for putting the real facts near the bottom of articles.

Jumping to conclusions based on headlines is unfortunately typical of many Americans these days. I am surprised that some on here, whom I assumed to be more politically astute, are doing the same thing. That is very sad.

Question: Did Kennedy break the law when he revealed secret U-2 photos of the missiles in Cuba to the UN?? Both Bush and Kennedy released information to clarify their actions.

I know you guys really don't want to connect declassification to Plame because on its face, the president can de-classify whatever he wants.

In the end, all of this was just a typical GOP smear operation that got caught on a (questionable) technicality.

But, when Bush was spouting off about how anyone caught leaking would be fired, he was misleading the public. And now that Scott McClellan had to "make the distinction" between what was in effect dirty politics by the Bush administration, and the whisle blowing type of leaks with the NSA stuff - well that dance is costing this administration a lot of crediabilty even from rank and file GOP supporters.

You and some of your hard right friends here may like to take the McClellan position, but a good chunk of the public will see this more along the way I see it. Even Sen. Specter thinks that Bush should detail his involvement, so obviously their is problems inside the GOP.

The administration wanted to discredit anyone who was against the intelligence case being made for war, and that only makes the whole execution of the war look like a big pile of ****. The only bright spot in this whole mess is the performence of the troops.
 
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python416 said:
In the end, all of this was just a typical GOP smear operation that got caught on a (questionable) technicality.
NO, the typical smear operation occurred in the past week.
 
Pacridge said:
Did he declassify it and then release or merely release it?

The corollary to the above is, "when is a 'leak' a 'leak'? So-called 'leaks' and selective disclosures of information have been used by every President since the invention of the telegraph. It is part of the power of the incumbency. In the case at hand, some memories seem conveniently short. To wit:

On July 20, 2003, the AP headlined a story bylined Tom Raum as: "Declassified CIA documents on Iraq show divided intelligence community". Excerpts from the story:

The White House declassified portions of an October 2002 intelligence report to demonstrate that President Bush had ample reason to believe Iraq was reconstituting a nuclear weapons program.

But the material also reflects divisions and uncertainties among intelligence agencies as to Saddam Hussein's activities.

The State Department, for instance, expressed deep skepticism over claims that Saddam was shopping for uranium ore in Africa to use in making atomic bombs - an allegation that wound up in Bush's Jan. 28 State of the Union address but which administration officials have since repudiated.

"Claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are ... highly dubious," said a State Department addendum included among the declassified material.

The administration released the documents - a sanitized version of the top-secret National Intelligence Estimate prepared for the president - on Friday as it sought to shield Bush from rising criticism that he misled the public in making his case for war with Iraq.

Administration aides suggested that the eight pages of excerpts, out of 90 in the document, demonstrate the notion that Saddam was trying to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program permeated the U.S. intelligence community - and was not just based on a suspect British report that relied in part on forged documents.

Referring to the same document, Knight Ridder ran a shorter story on the same subject on July 19, 2003, under the headline, "Bush releases excerpts of top-secret Iraq report". Portions of that story read thusly:

Hoping to quell the controversy over President Bush's use of questionable intelligence to help make the case for war with Iraq, White House officials on Friday released portions of a top-secret report from last year that concluded that Saddam Hussein was actively seeking nuclear weapons.

But that finding in the classified National Intelligence Estimate, prepared for the White House last October, came loaded with reservations that reflected deep divisions in the intelligence community over Iraq's weapons programs and were at odds with the certainty expressed by Bush and his top aides.

The report even quoted intelligence experts at the State Department as describing assertions that Iraq tried to buy uranium in Africa as "highly dubious." Bush nevertheless repeated the assertion in his State of the Union speech in January while arguing the need for war. Uranium is a key component of nuclear bombs.

Although the report concluded that Iraq was seeking chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, it acknowledged the scarcity of solid information. If the excerpts accurately reflect the full report, Bush reached the decision to go to war by assuming the worst about Iraq's capabilities and Hussein's intentions.

White House officials held a 75-minute briefing Friday on White House contacts with the CIA during the drafting of the speech. A senior administration official, insisting on anonymity, said the CIA approved the wording of Bush's speech without "any flag raised about the underlying intelligence."

Note that:

> these stories show that the release of the NIE was part of an attempt to quell the political uproar that was starting to build over what Bush did and did not know before the war.

> the stories show that the "leak" while criticized for being "selective", included the State Department minority opinion.

> the only new element of the story that was added last week via Patrick Fitzgerald's brief is that Bush (according to Cheny according to Libby), authorized the release of the NIE report ten days earlier than the July 18 briefing that was widely reported, and that they disclosed it to Judith Miller, who didn't write about it.

> the NYTs story reported only that bBush authorized the declassification and release of the NIE report, not the manner of its disclosure specifically to their staffer, Judith Miller.

One pundit remarked, "That Fitzgerald is one helluva digger, able to ferret out this stuff that was in the headlines three years ago...".

Source.
 
Gill said:
NO, the typical smear operation occurred in the past week.

Clarify please?

Maybe also clarify why the suggestion that Wilson only went to Africa to investigate the issue because his wife worked at the CIA isn't a smear?
 
hipsterdufus said:
Bush called Plame a "national assett" but forget about her for a second. What about every agent at Bruster Jennings that was outed at the same time in Novak's column? Do you think they weren't put in serious danger by this leak?

So now numerious CIA agents were outted by the Novak story? LMFAO, well like who for instance? I'm sure that Fitzgerald would really love to know considering that no one has been charged with even outing Ms. Plame let alone numerous CIA agents. Do you just make this **** up as you go along?
 
OK, so we have learned a little more about the declassified portions of the documents in question. GW has specifically stated that because he wanted the American People to know the Truth about Saddam and his weapons programs, he had to selectively release Prior Classified information.

The TRUTH? He's kidding right? Apparently the same satellites that nailed the North Koreans and Iran DO NOT WORK over Iraq. We can pick up a Barium Enema from space, but we suspected Saddam had Yellow Cake? It's funny how that Nuclear thing turned into the Generic term WMD. NOT Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical Weapons like in 1991-----no----we got the vague and ambiguous Boogie-Man phrase "WMD".

Does George believe that he authorized the leak to one Newspaper, with only certain portions declassified, AND that the information turned out to be "Flawed Intelligence" (There they go blaming the CIA again), yet somehow he was telling us the truth? Even after they knew, the VP, and Condi had no problem giving us visions of "Mushroom Clouds", yet GW is telling us the truth? He may just believe his own (provided) lies. Tis a sad day we live in right now, thank God we are finally correcting course.

When a War is JUST, the American people will stand behind this Nation and Government 100%. When the smell of politics reeks in every single corner of of the War House George built, is it any wonder why he is being perceived as not being trustworthy?
 
Diavo said:
that the information turned out to be "Flawed Intelligence" (There they go blaming the CIA again), yet somehow he was telling us the truth?

What? Nice juxtaposition of hind-sight versus fore-sight. Not. You need to get your time-line fixed.
 
oldreliable67 said:
What? Nice juxtaposition of hind-sight versus fore-sight. Not. You need to get your time-line fixed.

Yep, you are right, NO ONE could have imagined that Saddam was not Nuclear. "Juxtaposition", I love that word. You are right, they didn't overtly imply Nuclear Capabilities, then change it to WMD, and continue implying Nuclear possibilities. Even though they were warned, it's hindsight.

Kind of like not imagining Planes could be used as missiles after the August 6th PDB, and that the Iraqis were gonna greet us with Flowers and Cookies. Who needs a contingency plan for an insurgency and foreign fighers? Yep, and they weren't warned about that either. Shinseki, Powell, and Principi warned them, along with a whole bunch of PUNDITS, but no one could imagine it.
 
DiavoTheMiavo said:
Yep, you are right, NO ONE could have imagined that Saddam was not Nuclear. "Juxtaposition", I love that word. You are right, they didn't overtly imply Nuclear Capabilities, then change it to WMD, and continue implying Nuclear possibilities. Even though they were warned, it's hindsight.

Kind of like not imagining Planes could be used as missiles after the August 6th PDB, and that the Iraqis were gonna greet us with Flowers and Cookies. Who needs a contingency plan for an insurgency and foreign fighers? Yep, and they weren't warned about that either. Shinseki, Powell, and Principi warned them, along with a whole bunch of PUNDITS, but no one could imagine it.

Maybe you should check a dictionary for 'juxtaposition'.
 
DiavoTheMiavo said:
OK, so we have learned a little more about the declassified portions of the documents in question. GW has specifically stated that because he wanted the American People to know the Truth about Saddam and his weapons programs, he had to selectively release Prior Classified information.

The TRUTH? He's kidding right? Apparently the same satellites that nailed the North Koreans and Iran DO NOT WORK over Iraq. We can pick up a Barium Enema from space, but we suspected Saddam had Yellow Cake? It's funny how that Nuclear thing turned into the Generic term WMD. NOT Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical Weapons like in 1991-----no----we got the vague and ambiguous Boogie-Man phrase "WMD".

Does George believe that he authorized the leak to one Newspaper, with only certain portions declassified, AND that the information turned out to be "Flawed Intelligence" (There they go blaming the CIA again), yet somehow he was telling us the truth? Even after they knew, the VP, and Condi had no problem giving us visions of "Mushroom Clouds", yet GW is telling us the truth? He may just believe his own (provided) lies. Tis a sad day we live in right now, thank God we are finally correcting course.

When a War is JUST, the American people will stand behind this Nation and Government 100%. When the smell of politics reeks in every single corner of of the War House George built, is it any wonder why he is being perceived as not being trustworthy?
Maybe you missed it, but app. 500 tons of yellowcake WAS found in Iraq after the invasion.

It was not just the CIA intelligence that Bush wa relying on. The intelligence services of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. The State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) agreed with EVERY claim made by Bush except that Saddam's nuclear program was 'up and running'.

Lawrence Wilkerson, Powell's Chief of Staff said the following:

I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Maybe you should check a dictionary for 'juxtaposition'.

I am sure you already have one liner, it's right next hyperbole and ad-homonym. And I wonder where you picked them up in daily conversation. That's a rhetorical question----I like that word too----rhetorical.
 
Gill said:
Maybe you missed it, but app. 500 tons of yellowcake WAS found in Iraq after the invasion.

Actually...I think I missed that part too, seriously, if this is truth I would like to see the information which validates it....Pleeeease.
 
A simple google search left me in the cold in this, this is all I could find:

"In May 2003, coalition forces visited the former yellowcake extraction plant at Al-Qaim and discovered 16 drums of yellowcake and radioactive waste—materials we believe were associated with the pre-1991 nuclear weapons program. These drums were transferred in late June 2003 to the yellowcake storage facility located at Tuwaitha. There is no evidence that this material had been produced after Desert Storm

ISG also investigated the Ibn-Sina’ Facility—which in 1991 was part of Iraq’s EMIS uranium enrichment program—but found no indicators that the chemical processes being developed there had produced more than a few kilograms of uranium-bearing wastes as a byproduct of phosphoric acid purification. ISG believes that the Ibn-Sina’—which concentrated much of the chemical engineering staff from the former PC-3 nuclear weapons program—would most likely have been involved in an effort to reestablish a uranium recovery capability, had such an effort been under way."


I would appreciate any further information you may have
 
Gill said:
Maybe you missed it, but app. 500 tons of yellowcake WAS found in Iraq after the invasion.

It was not just the CIA intelligence that Bush wa relying on. The intelligence services of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. The State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) agreed with EVERY claim made by Bush except that Saddam's nuclear program was 'up and running'.

Lawrence Wilkerson, Powell's Chief of Staff said the following:

OK, enough of this Merry-Go-Round, Ferris Wheel stuff----seriously, I want off. GW and his Administration are absolutely the most incompetent, dishonest, Self serving group of people to ever steward our Nation.

Sometimes it is so simple, it is staring you right in the eyes and they hope if they keep changing the subject you won't notice. The following Top Ten reasons will explain how to tell your President is Lying about Iraq's threat to our security.

1. We absolutely destroyed his Military in 1991----and got criticized for it as well. I saw it.

2. Since 1991, there were TWO No-Fly Zones, one on the Southern side and one on the Northern side keeping track over two-thirds of the country.

3. Contrary to Popular Belief, throughout the 1990's there were approximately 68 CIA operatives on the ground in Iraq.

4. Almost entirely, the next eleven years had UN Weapons Inspectors on the ground.

5. In 1991, 500,000 troops was not enough to Occupy Iraq. In 2003, when he was apparently this HUGE threat, initial plans for the invasion envisioned by the Chicken-Hawks deemed 70,000 troops sufficient enough to do the job.

6. We attacked in March----IN MARCH!!!!! If Saddam had WMD capabilities even worse than in 1991, GW Bush sent our Troops into a fight with only a three week weather window. A window where they would actually be able to utilize Chem Suits before Temperatures reach 140 degrees on the desert floor under the sun.

7. We raced to Baghdad out running our supply Lines, an allowing the insurgents to "Melt Away", just like the Nam. Apparently the Administration knew they were dealing with the Flinstone army.

8. WE HAVE SATELLITES FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!!!!!

9. Let's not forget about the Sanctions.

10. George Bush's lips were moving.


I am sure this will bring up very OLD arguments that have been pr oven false already-----at least as it concerns the George Bush Diehard. Again, I am not into Semitics, the ridiculous, or the absurd. I abhor Ferris Wheels and Merry-Go-Rounds----but I love fishing for Walleye.
 
tecoyah said:
Actually...I think I missed that part too, seriously, if this is truth I would like to see the information which validates it....Pleeeease.

All Weapons Program Materials were under Lock & Key AND ACCOUNTED for prior to the invasion. Including the High Explosives and Symtex that was looted well after our invasion, although a Diehard will say they are in Syria.
 
Thanx Guys.....I seriously never learned of this....and it is an important part of the story. Though I can see why the Adminstration didnt play it up:

"The paper conceded that while Saddam's nearly 2 tons of partially enriched uranium was "a more potent form" of the nuclear fuel, it was "still not sufficient for a weapon."

Still....it could have become an issue down the road. Is this the smoking gun...apparantly not, but its definately interesting.
 
tecoyah said:
Thanx Guys.....I seriously never learned of this....and it is an important part of the story. Though I can see why the Adminstration didnt play it up:

"The paper conceded that while Saddam's nearly 2 tons of partially enriched uranium was "a more potent form" of the nuclear fuel, it was "still not sufficient for a weapon."

Still....it could have become an issue down the road. Is this the smoking gun...apparantly not, but its definately interesting.


No Smoking Gun when materials are accounted for. If there is smoke, Georgie would be fanning the flames to save his arse now.
 
DiavoTheMiavo said:
All Weapons Program Materials were under Lock & Key AND ACCOUNTED for prior to the invasion. Including the High Explosives and Symtex that was looted well after our invasion, although a Diehard will say they are in Syria.

So would the Iraqi general who over saw their transfer.
 
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