Lefty
Member
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- Dec 30, 2005
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- Location
- Philadelphia
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- Political Leaning
- Liberal
David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.
''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' " he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on."
Golove and other legal specialists compared the signing statement to Bush's decision, revealed last month, to bypass a 1978 law forbidding domestic wiretapping without a warrant.
Calm2Chaos said:Lets hope so......
Lefty said:You hope so? The president is not above the law! He can't decide when its convenient for him to obey a law and when it's not.
Calm2Chaos said:I want the president and our military to have the ability to do whatever is required of them to get the information needed to save American lives
Lefty said:Wyh don't we just scrap democracy? That would certainly make it easier for things to get done right?
The president is not above the law. Period.
Calm2Chaos said:OK.. How about no torturing American Citizens that are not planing or in collusion with any terrorist organization looking to kill American citizens or destroy our country. The truth is if I am dead I can't really appreciate democracy very much. Torture is not a new device used to gain information. We along with every other country have used this against enemies and combatants to garner information to keep its country and citizens safe. The difference is you are never going to be told about the successes that have stopped the deaths of innocent civilians world wide
Lefty said:Yeah, I'm all for saving lives, but torture doesn't even work. Just ask John McCain. That's why he pushed so hard for this law. It's because it's not only morally reprehensible and illegal, but it's completely ineffective.
When people are getting tortured they'll do anything to end the pain. That means saying whatever comes to their mind first. John McCain told the North Vietnamese the names of the Green Bay Packers. Think that was useful information for them? Well, unless they were placing bets on a Packers game, I doubt it.
How you can be for torture amazes me.
The Torture Myth
Why Torture Doesn’t Work
Why Torture Doesn't Work: A Critique of Alan Dershowitz' Case for Torture
Why Torture Doesn't Work
Denounce Torture
Why Torture Doesn't Work
agreed...Calm2Chaos said:NO.. Torture is not 100%, but I have no doubt that information gained from this practices have produced results. Your just never going to hear about it. And the truth is if your trying to destroy my country and or kill my citizens I could care less if you get tortured. The people we are dealing with are well known murders and torturers. This is a tatste of there own medicine. I have no bullshit need to be morally superior. I see no reason to take a knife to a gun fight. You fight a gorilla war you best be prepared to fight it in a gorrila manner
cnredd said:agreed...
What the heck is it with this "I want you to protect us, but first put on these handcuffs" attitude?...
Calm2Chaos said:NO.. Torture is not 100%, but I have no doubt that information gained from this practices have produced results. Your just never going to hear about it. And the truth is if your trying to destroy my country and or kill my citizens I could care less if you get tortured. The people we are dealing with are well known murders and torturers. This is a tatste of there own medicine. I have no bullshit need to be morally superior. I see no reason to take a knife to a gun fight. You fight a gorilla war you best be prepared to fight it in a gorrila manner
cnredd said:agreed...
What the heck is it with this "I want you to protect us, but first put on these handcuffs" attitude?...
Calm2Chaos said:OK.. How about no torturing American Citizens that are not planing or in collusion with any terrorist organization looking to kill American citizens or destroy our country. The truth is if I am dead I can't really appreciate democracy very much. Torture is not a new device used to gain information. We along with every other country have used this against enemies and combatants to garner information to keep its country and citizens safe. The difference is you are never going to be told about the successes that have stopped the deaths of innocent civilians world wide
SouthernDemocrat said:By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.
SouthernDemocrat said:Too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security.
Middleground said:Southern, why does Calm2Chaos so hate America? :lol:
SouthernDemocrat said:By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.
Middleground said:If you've read what has been written about torture, then you'd be aware of not only how ineffective it is, but how it also creates more resentment and hatred. I wish there were stats the could show how many lives were saved by obtaining "tortured information" vs how many lives were lost because of the built-up hated and resentment because of the torture.
How do you feel about the US torturing people who are completely innocent? I hope you're not naive enough to think that it has not happened. Frequently, too. Bet some Iraqis think that Saddam is still in power.
Lefty said:Calm2Chaos, I think Middleground makes an interesting point here. Didn't we invade Iraq to get Saddam's WMDs?... I mean... to install a democratic state in the middle east and take a horrible dictator out of power. And yet here we are turning around and doing the same things that Saddam did. Think about that for a minute. Bush is no better than Saddam. Torture is illegal, immoral, and ineffective. By supporting torture you are only breeding hatred of this country and making it easier for terrorist organizations to recuit people to their cause. That's why the number of terrorist activity has increased since Bush has taken action.
Lefty said:It amazes me every day how people like yourselves can sit back and allow this to happen, and argue that we have a right to do sh-t like this.
SouthernDemocrat said:By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.
Middleground said:Southern, why does Calm2Chaos so hate America? :lol:
SouthernDemocrat said:He like so many on the ideological right, is confusing nationalism with patriotism.
Lefty said:This is the kind of prescident allowing the president to do warrantless wiretappings is setting.
article here
Calm2Chaos said:Bet you they don't !!!! As I said it's not perfect, and probably never wil be. But unless you can prove to me that NO innocent lives have been saved from the information then we have a ways to go. Do you know of any terrorist attacks on the US that were spurred on because of torture? I have never heard of this before, please let me know what they were.
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