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Bush Could Bypass New Torture Ban

Lefty

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This is the kind of prescident allowing the president to do warrantless wiretappings is setting.

David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.

''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' " he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on."

Golove and other legal specialists compared the signing statement to Bush's decision, revealed last month, to bypass a 1978 law forbidding domestic wiretapping without a warrant.
article here
 
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Calm2Chaos

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Lets hope so......
 

Lefty

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Calm2Chaos said:
Lets hope so......
You hope so? The president is not above the law! He can't decide when its convenient for him to obey a law and when it's not.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Lefty said:
You hope so? The president is not above the law! He can't decide when its convenient for him to obey a law and when it's not.

I want the president and our military to have the ability to do whatever is required of them to get the information needed to save American lives
 

Lefty

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Calm2Chaos said:
I want the president and our military to have the ability to do whatever is required of them to get the information needed to save American lives
Wyh don't we just scrap democracy? That would certainly make it easier for things to get done right?

The president is not above the law. Period.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Lefty said:
Wyh don't we just scrap democracy? That would certainly make it easier for things to get done right?

The president is not above the law. Period.

OK.. How about no torturing American Citizens that are not planing or in collusion with any terrorist organization looking to kill American citizens or destroy our country. The truth is if I am dead I can't really appreciate democracy very much. Torture is not a new device used to gain information. We along with every other country have used this against enemies and combatants to garner information to keep its country and citizens safe. The difference is you are never going to be told about the successes that have stopped the deaths of innocent civilians world wide
 

Lefty

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Calm2Chaos said:
OK.. How about no torturing American Citizens that are not planing or in collusion with any terrorist organization looking to kill American citizens or destroy our country. The truth is if I am dead I can't really appreciate democracy very much. Torture is not a new device used to gain information. We along with every other country have used this against enemies and combatants to garner information to keep its country and citizens safe. The difference is you are never going to be told about the successes that have stopped the deaths of innocent civilians world wide
Yeah, I'm all for saving lives, but torture doesn't even work. Just ask John McCain. That's why he pushed so hard for this law. It's because it's not only morally reprehensible and illegal, but it's completely ineffective.

When people are getting tortured they'll do anything to end the pain. That means saying whatever comes to their mind first. John McCain told the North Vietnamese the names of the Green Bay Packers. Think that was useful information for them? Well, unless they were placing bets on a Packers game, I doubt it.

How you can be for torture amazes me.

The Torture Myth
Why Torture Doesn’t Work
Why Torture Doesn't Work: A Critique of Alan Dershowitz' Case for Torture
Why Torture Doesn't Work
Denounce Torture
Why Torture Doesn't Work
 

Calm2Chaos

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Lefty said:
Yeah, I'm all for saving lives, but torture doesn't even work. Just ask John McCain. That's why he pushed so hard for this law. It's because it's not only morally reprehensible and illegal, but it's completely ineffective.

When people are getting tortured they'll do anything to end the pain. That means saying whatever comes to their mind first. John McCain told the North Vietnamese the names of the Green Bay Packers. Think that was useful information for them? Well, unless they were placing bets on a Packers game, I doubt it.

How you can be for torture amazes me.

The Torture Myth
Why Torture Doesn’t Work
Why Torture Doesn't Work: A Critique of Alan Dershowitz' Case for Torture
Why Torture Doesn't Work
Denounce Torture
Why Torture Doesn't Work
NO.. Torture is not 100%, but I have no doubt that information gained from this practices have produced results. Your just never going to hear about it. And the truth is if your trying to destroy my country and or kill my citizens I could care less if you get tortured. The people we are dealing with are well known murders and torturers. This is a tatste of there own medicine. I have no bullshit need to be morally superior. I see no reason to take a knife to a gun fight. You fight a gorilla war you best be prepared to fight it in a gorrila manner
 

cnredd

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Calm2Chaos said:
NO.. Torture is not 100%, but I have no doubt that information gained from this practices have produced results. Your just never going to hear about it. And the truth is if your trying to destroy my country and or kill my citizens I could care less if you get tortured. The people we are dealing with are well known murders and torturers. This is a tatste of there own medicine. I have no bullshit need to be morally superior. I see no reason to take a knife to a gun fight. You fight a gorilla war you best be prepared to fight it in a gorrila manner
agreed...

What the heck is it with this "I want you to protect us, but first put on these handcuffs" attitude?...
 

Calm2Chaos

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cnredd said:
agreed...

What the heck is it with this "I want you to protect us, but first put on these handcuffs" attitude?...

But if something goes wrong you damm should have known about it and done more to prevent it.
 

Middleground

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Calm2Chaos said:
NO.. Torture is not 100%, but I have no doubt that information gained from this practices have produced results. Your just never going to hear about it. And the truth is if your trying to destroy my country and or kill my citizens I could care less if you get tortured. The people we are dealing with are well known murders and torturers. This is a tatste of there own medicine. I have no bullshit need to be morally superior. I see no reason to take a knife to a gun fight. You fight a gorilla war you best be prepared to fight it in a gorrila manner
If you've read what has been written about torture, then you'd be aware of not only how ineffective it is, but how it also creates more resentment and hatred. I wish there were stats the could show how many lives were saved by obtaining "tortured information" vs how many lives were lost because of the built-up hated and resentment because of the torture.

How do you feel about the US torturing people who are completely innocent? I hope you're not naive enough to think that it has not happened. Frequently, too. Bet some Iraqis think that Saddam is still in power.
 

Middleground

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cnredd said:
agreed...

What the heck is it with this "I want you to protect us, but first put on these handcuffs" attitude?...
Who says that torture is necessary in order to get information?
 

Lefty

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Calm2Chaos, I think Middleground makes an interesting point here. Didn't we invade Iraq to get Saddam's WMDs?... I mean... to install a democratic state in the middle east and take a horrible dictator out of power. And yet here we are turning around and doing the same things that Saddam did. Think about that for a minute. Bush is no better than Saddam. Torture is illegal, immoral, and ineffective. By supporting torture you are only breeding hatred of this country and making it easier for terrorist organizations to recuit people to their cause. That's why the number of terrorist activity has increased since Bush has taken action.

It amazes me every day how people like yourselves can sit back and allow this to happen, and argue that we have a right to do sh-t like this.
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Calm2Chaos said:
OK.. How about no torturing American Citizens that are not planing or in collusion with any terrorist organization looking to kill American citizens or destroy our country. The truth is if I am dead I can't really appreciate democracy very much. Torture is not a new device used to gain information. We along with every other country have used this against enemies and combatants to garner information to keep its country and citizens safe. The difference is you are never going to be told about the successes that have stopped the deaths of innocent civilians world wide
By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.
 

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SouthernDemocrat said:
By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.
Southern, why does Calm2Chaos so hate America? :lol:
 

Lefty

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SouthernDemocrat said:
Too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security.
Beautiful. I might quote you on that someday.
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Middleground said:
Southern, why does Calm2Chaos so hate America? :lol:
He like so many on the ideological right, is confusing nationalism with patriotism.
 

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SouthernDemocrat said:
By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.

well said. And i completely agree that the extent to which blind nationalism has been embraced in this country is very dangerous.
 

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Middleground said:
If you've read what has been written about torture, then you'd be aware of not only how ineffective it is, but how it also creates more resentment and hatred. I wish there were stats the could show how many lives were saved by obtaining "tortured information" vs how many lives were lost because of the built-up hated and resentment because of the torture.

How do you feel about the US torturing people who are completely innocent? I hope you're not naive enough to think that it has not happened. Frequently, too. Bet some Iraqis think that Saddam is still in power.

Bet you they don't !!!! As I said it's not perfect, and probably never wil be. But unless you can prove to me that NO innocent lives have been saved from the information then we have a ways to go. Do you know of any terrorist attacks on the US that were spurred on because of torture? I have never heard of this before, please let me know what they were.
 

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Lefty said:
Calm2Chaos, I think Middleground makes an interesting point here. Didn't we invade Iraq to get Saddam's WMDs?... I mean... to install a democratic state in the middle east and take a horrible dictator out of power. And yet here we are turning around and doing the same things that Saddam did. Think about that for a minute. Bush is no better than Saddam. Torture is illegal, immoral, and ineffective. By supporting torture you are only breeding hatred of this country and making it easier for terrorist organizations to recuit people to their cause. That's why the number of terrorist activity has increased since Bush has taken action.
Hasn't increased in this country has it? And to make a statement as blatantly stupid as comparing Saddam to the President of the United States speaks volumes about were your loyalties are. I didn't know the President was authorizing and filling mass graves. I was unaware of the rape rooms that are being used on a daily bases. I was unaware that the president was having 1000's of people daily pulled from there homes in the dead of night never to be seen from again. When has the president openly financed terrorist and terrorist organization within our borders. Has performed some 600,000 execution... Sorry but your comparison is ill concieved and just plain stupid
Lefty said:
It amazes me every day how people like yourselves can sit back and allow this to happen, and argue that we have a right to do sh-t like this.

What amazes me is the next time people are diving out of a 100 story building plummeting to the ground at terminal velocity. That people like you will either scream that more should have been done to prevent it. (Although you have to do it with 2 hands behind your back.) Or That it's our fault that they decided to kill our citizens
 

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SouthernDemocrat said:
By God, I have said this before and I will say it again: Way too many men have died protecting our freedoms and liberty for us to just give it away to any president on the promise of security. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, if we are willing to give up our liberties in exchange for some promise of security, then we don’t deserve them. Shame on anyone who would call themselves an American who would readily hand over our liberty to anyone. We are a nation of laws, not men. If the price of freedom must be paid on our own soil than so be it. It is the founding principle of our nation.
OOO thats fukn brilliant. Why not give the terrorist there own C4 carrying bag when they come in. Since we are not allowed to actually go after them if it infringes on any single right whatsoever. And while that going on we are giving these same terorrist the same rights we live by making it impossible for us to get to them. So your brilliant idea is to just live like targets. Ya know what thats a great idea. Not exactly sure how much our liberties are worth if i have to worry everyday people like you are more then willing to let the terrorist into our country. Wonder if your feeling would be the same if a child or family member was vaporized or dismembered by one of these people? So you would rather be hunted like an animal then actually do what it takes to stop these animals. Sorry thats not liberty that prison....I still don't understand why people like you quote a man that had no idea about what the world would be like today. Had no comprension in the ability to kil 1000's in the blink of an eye. Had no idea what this country or our freedoms would be fighting against..
 

Calm2Chaos

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Middleground said:
Southern, why does Calm2Chaos so hate America? :lol:

LMAO.. you don't love this country.. I'm guessing you love to berate it and degrade it. You love to point out whats wrong with it. You love all that, as long as you don't have to fight for it your probably happy as can be. You would support the throat cutters and kid killers before you ever stood up in defense of this country and the president.... Figures
 

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SouthernDemocrat said:
He like so many on the ideological right, is confusing nationalism with patriotism.
I keep forgetting the only way to support this country is to constantly bitch about it and tear it down.. NO wonder your such a great patriot.....:roll: :rofl :roll:
 
H

hipsterdufus

Lefty said:
This is the kind of prescident allowing the president to do warrantless wiretappings is setting.



article here
Yeah, I started a thread on this here.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=7157

Note to mods - you could merge mine with this one.

I fail to understand why so many of you are willing to give away all of your freedoms to the President? To me, when we do that, the terrorists win. Changing policy for the "war on terror" is, in actuality, like giving eternal power to the president. When do you think this "war" will be over?

If our laws aren't strong enough to fight the terrorists, then by all means, CHANGE THEM. What we see here, for the umpteenth time, with Bush is imperial hubris. We elect a President, not a dictator. No one is above the law.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Bet you they don't !!!! As I said it's not perfect, and probably never wil be. But unless you can prove to me that NO innocent lives have been saved from the information then we have a ways to go. Do you know of any terrorist attacks on the US that were spurred on because of torture? I have never heard of this before, please let me know what they were.
Bet you they don't what? If you're referring to the US NOT torturing innocents, how about this (much better than a "betcha they don't!):

According to the International Red Cross, close to 90% of the people being held are not guilty of the allegations and many were picked-up almost at random by US patrols on sweeps. It was the publicly declared opinion of senior UK and US officials that the prison should be demolished as soon as possible, however this was overruled by the interim Iraqi Government at the 'request' of senior officials of the US government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prison

A great way to make friends, don't you think?

As far as lives being saved by information in this current Iraqi "war", well I don't know for sure. Perhaps it has, perhaps it hasn't. I might also add that they got information from someone who was treated with dignity.

As far as your question, "Do you know of any terrorist attacks on the US that were spurred on because of torture?" I would say you bet. Unfortunately, it's your own soldiers who are so far taking the brunt of it against the insurgency. And if you think for one minute that they are not pissed because of this, then I'm afraid you're sadly misinformed. I should also note the raised level of hatred that this has cause in the Arab world.
 
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