Bush Could Bypass New Torture Ban

[Calm2Chaos]

Bet you they don't what? If you're referring to the US NOT torturing innocents, how about this (much better than a "betcha they don't!):

Bethcha they don't think Saddam is still in power... Maybe they pondered that idea on the way to the election polls........

According to the International Red Cross, close to 90% of the people being held are not guilty of the allegations and many were picked-up almost at random by US patrols on sweeps. It was the publicly declared opinion of senior UK and US officials that the prison should be demolished as soon as possible, however this was overruled by the interim Iraqi Government at the 'request' of senior officials of the US government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prison

A great way to make friends, don't you think?

Didn't know we were trying to make friends. We should just go in and hand out candy and qurans. That should make us popular. How about we pledge 6 billion to every ME nation per year. That should make us friends. I keep forgetting we are in a war for friends. I am sure we made a lot of friends when we put Germanys dick in the dirt, and japan for that matter.

As far as lives being saved by information in this current Iraqi "war", well I don't know for sure. Perhaps it has, perhaps it hasn't. I might also add that they got information from someone who was treated with dignity.

I have no doubt thats happened also. The difference is I am open for what works. I am not going to stop something if thats what is need to prevail

As far as your question, "Do you know of any terrorist attacks on the US that were spurred on because of torture?" I would say you bet. Unfortunately, it's your own soldiers who are so far taking the brunt of it against the insurgency. And if you think for one minute that they are not pissed because of this, then I'm afraid you're sadly misinformed. I should also note the raised level of hatred that this has cause in the Arab world.

PLease name one? The misoinformed one seems to be you, but please enlighten me. The Arab world has disliked everything non muslim for generations. And the ME itself was a hole way before we got there. So don't attempt to blame all this on us. Its a land of terorrist, treat them as such

 

[ALiberalModerate]

OOO thats fukn brilliant. Why not give the terrorist there own C4 carrying bag when they come in. Since we are not allowed to actually go after them if it infringes on any single right whatsoever. And while that going on we are giving these same terorrist the same rights we live by making it impossible for us to get to them. So your brilliant idea is to just live like targets. Ya know what thats a great idea. Not exactly sure how much our liberties are worth if i have to worry everyday people like you are more then willing to let the terrorist into our country. Wonder if your feeling would be the same if a child or family member was vaporized or dismembered by one of these people? So you would rather be hunted like an animal then actually do what it takes to stop these animals. Sorry thats not liberty that prison....I still don't understand why people like you quote a man that had no idea about what the world would be like today. Had no comprension in the ability to kil 1000's in the blink of an eye. Had no idea what this country or our freedoms would be fighting against..

So the Constitution is nothing but toilet paper because some nut jobs living in caves have it out for us?

Every year 12,000 Americans are murdered. Being that is about 5 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should install a wiretap on all of our phones as there is no way of knowing who is a potential murder. By doing that, we could probably cut the murder rate in half. The founding fathers probably would have never conceived of the kind of murder rate we have today.

Every year 30,000 Americans die of the Flu. Being that is about 10 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should issue an executive order locking up anyone suspected of having the flu while they have the flu and until they are determined to not be contagious. By doing that, probably tens of thousands of American lives would be saved every year. The founding fathers probably would have never conceived of the speed that which people can travel today and thus spread disease.

Every year 50,000 Americans die from air pollution related causes. Being that is about 16 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should issue an executive order that bans the non-essential use of Automobiles and order the thermostats in homes turned up 5 degrees as well as shuts down most refineries. I mean when you consider the number of lives that would save every year, certainly riding busses everywhere, living in an uncomfortable home, and paying 15 bucks a gallon for gas is reasonable to save the lives of nearly 50,000 Americans each year. The founding fathers had no concept of pollutants and how many lives each year that would die as a result of them.

Every year nearly 500,000 Americans die from heart disease related causes. Being that is about 120 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should issue an executive order that bans the consumption of all red meat and hydrogenated oils. That alone over time would probably result in saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans each year. The founding fathers had no idea of the true causes of heart disease or how many Americans might one day die each year from it or the costs to the economy and healthcare system that it would present.

So I guess you are right, the Constitution is totally irrelevant. Just some notion from a bygone era. :roll:

 

[Calm2Chaos]

So the Constitution is nothing but toilet paper because some nut jobs living in caves have it out for us?

It's ashame you think like that. Because I have never said anything of the sort.

Every year 12,000 Americans are murdered. Being that is about 5 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should install a wiretap on all of our phones as there is no way of knowing who is a potential murder. By doing that, we could probably cut the murder rate in half. The founding fathers probably would have never conceived of the kind of murder rate we have today.

So now your comparing terrorist to domestic criminals. So what you seem to be saying is that everyone should get the same laws. We should treat the terorrorist like domestic criminals and follow all the same laws? So terrorist should be given the rights of US citizens...hmmm well your not the first lib to spout that line. We have a foriegn enemy that is going afetr our people and our allies. Unfortunately this country lets everyone in with minimal screening. So to try and keep ahead of the kid killers and throat cutter they try and find patterns and evidence through certain communications. I am not exactly sure what god a warrant is 10 minutes after the restaurant explodes in a ball of flame and glass. There might be dead kids laying all over the street but at least we got a warrant to listen to the bombers laff about it.

Every year 30,000 Americans die of the Flu. Being that is about 10 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should issue an executive order locking up anyone suspected of having the flu while they have the flu and until they are determined to not be contagious. By doing that, probably tens of thousands of American lives would be saved every year. The founding fathers probably would have never conceived of the speed that which people can travel today and thus spread disease.

Thats a great idea... BUt like most of what you have sead in this post has nothing at all to do with what we were talking about. I am not going to make moronic comparisons so you can make stupid points

Every year 50,000 Americans die from air pollution related causes. Being that is about 16 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should issue an executive order that bans the non-essential use of Automobiles and order the thermostats in homes turned up 5 degrees as well as shuts down most refineries. I mean when you consider the number of lives that would save every year, certainly riding busses everywhere, living in an uncomfortable home, and paying 15 bucks a gallon for gas is reasonable to save the lives of nearly 50,000 Americans each year. The founding fathers had no concept of pollutants and how many lives each year that would die as a result of them.

Again.. Nothing to do with what were talking about.....

Every year nearly 500,000 Americans die from heart disease related causes. Being that is about 120 times the number of people the terrorists killed on 9/11, maybe the president should issue an executive order that bans the consumption of all red meat and hydrogenated oils. That alone over time would probably result in saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans each year. The founding fathers had no idea of the true causes of heart disease or how many Americans might one day die each year from it or the costs to the economy and healthcare system that it would present.

Again more nonsense and nothing to do with what were talking about.

So I guess you are right, the Constitution is totally irrelevant. Just some notion from a bygone era. :roll:

Hopefully when the time comes you'll be willing to bet your kids lives on the warrant and court systems working in that timely manner. Because the truth is, all the people that seem to want to make it more difficult to catch and find these people should be forced to stand next to them when they pull the zip line.

Not exactly sure how your grabbing so much at the constitution. It is a framework for society, I was unaware that it was a be all end all. If your going by the letter of the constitution then you have no grounds to stand on. NO were in the constitution or amendments does it mention illegal search and seizure of emails and cell phone transmissions....Does it? So if this being the case and we are working by the letter then there is no problem. And no were in the Constitution does it give anyone the right to privacy... Hmmmm

 

[BWG]

Every year 12,000 Americans are murdered.

Every year 30,000 Americans die of the Flu.

Every year 50,000 Americans die from air pollution related causes.

Every year nearly 500,000 Americans die from heart disease related causes.

So I guess you are right, the Constitution is totally irrelevant. Just some notion from a bygone era. :roll:

But those figures are so mundane, everyday, boring, there's no fear factor.

You need buzz words like:

kid killers and throat cutter

restaurant explodes in a ball of flame and glass

dead kids laying all over the street

give the terrorist there own C4 carrying bag

child or family member was vaporized

dismembered by one of these people

 

[libertarian_knight]

agreed...

What the heck is it with this "I want you to protect us, but first put on these handcuffs" attitude?...

to bad the "handcuffs" are the US constitution huh?

If you don't like our Constitution or our laws, move away. that's what you types say all the time right?


you hate the Constitution, so leave. Our Constitution let's you go. BYE BYE. SEE YA. We'll do just fine without you.

 

[stsburns]

This is the kind of prescident allowing the president to do warrantless wiretappings is setting.



article here

Still on the torture story. Wow, you run out of ammo real quick! Recycling news doesn't make it any truer now than when it was published.

About torture in general both "American" and "Opposition"...

I BEG YOU TO RESEARCH JAPANESE BOOT CAMPS, GERMAN BOOT CAMPS DURING WWII!

 

[Calm2Chaos]

But those figures are so mundane, everyday, boring, there's no fear factor.

You need buzz words like:

Don't you have a terrorist organization to support. Or maybe you can go out and boo the country some more.. Ya know.. be productive....

 

[Calm2Chaos]

to bad the "handcuffs" are the US constitution huh?

If you don't like our Constitution or our laws, move away. that's what you types say all the time right?


you hate the Constitution, so leave. Our Constitution let's you go. BYE BYE. SEE YA. We'll do just fine without you.

Please show me in the constitution were emails and cell phones are protected? Then show me in the constitution your right to privacy. Your the one trying to manipulate the constitution to fit whatever meaning you want it to at the time

 

[libertarian_knight]

Please show me in the constitution were emails and cell phones are protected? Then show me in the constitution your right to privacy. Your the one trying to manipulate the constitution to fit whatever meaning you want it to at the time

They've been upheld is Sumpreme Court rulings as implied by teh constitution. Read the recent CRS memo.

It's not my meaning, it's the meaning Congress used in execution of it's Consitutional powers in creation and passage of the Prvacy Act, Various communications and telecomm acts, FISA, Omnibus Crime, Several other crimes act, and literally countless sumpreme court rulings. Thus, two branches of Government, through there exercise of Constitutional powers and interpretations of the 4th amenedment and otehr consitutional provision in article I, section 8 that have cleary, and definatively, protected and Affirmed privacy rights.

again, many of those are dealt with in the CRS memo specifically, including judical rulings by the supreme court.

It's 44 pages, it might be a bit much for you though.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

They've been upheld is Sumpreme Court rulings as implied by teh constitution. Read the recent CRS memo.

It's not my meaning, it's the meaning Congress used in execution of it's Consitutional powers in creation and passage of the Prvacy Act, Various communications and telecomm acts, FISA, Omnibus Crime, Several other crimes act, and literally countless sumpreme court rulings. Thus, two branches of Government, through there exercise of Constitutional powers and interpretations of the 4th amenedment and otehr consitutional provision in article I, section 8 that have cleary, and definatively, protected and Affirmed privacy rights.

again, many of those are dealt with in the CRS memo specifically, including judical rulings by the supreme court.

It's 44 pages, it might be a bit much for you though.

But alas the constitution says nothing about it as I thought. But you still insist on envoking the old "You think the constitution is worthless" type line.... Yet it says notihng pertaining to what your talking about. And were these meaning and definitions there when lets say .... Clinton was using Echelon to wire tap and wrangle electronic messages throughout the country? Or were you just not worrried about it then... Do you got something to hide. I think you very well may. Theres obviously something in your past or present your very embarrased about, and don't want the NSA or the goverment. Taking time out of there busy days trying to catch terrorist to go through all of your meaningless and worthless electronic information....

 

[libertarian_knight]

But alas the constitution says nothing about it as I thought. But you still insist on envoking the old "You think the constitution is worthless" type line.... Yet it says notihng pertaining to what your talking about. And were these meaning and definitions there when lets say .... Clinton was using Echelon to wire tap and wrangle electronic messages throughout the country? Or were you just not worrried about it then... Do you got something to hide. I think you very well may. Theres obviously something in your past or present your very embarrased about, and don't want the NSA or the goverment. Taking time out of there busy days trying to catch terrorist to go through all of your meaningless and worthless electronic information....

Ok, since the consitution say nothing about the air force, what then? Is the President CiC over the Airforce (or Marines, or National Guard, or Coast Guard)? since those are not mentioned in the Constitution, only Army and Navy are. OBVIOUSLY constitutional law extend beyond what the consitution states itself.

I was worried about it when clinton was in office. I am not a democrat. Too bad some people can't make that distinction.

You think wrong, assuming you actually think at all, or you would be sticking to the issue instead of me making the issue. My concern is not over myself, so there is no need to further attempt to make me the subject. Of course, you may be limited in intellect which restricts you from talking about events or ideas, and you'd ratehr gossip about people.

two of the branches of governmnet have legislated, interpreted legislation and the constitution that US Citizens do in fact have privacy rights, born out of the 4th amendment and constitutionally valid law, including but not limited to Privacy Act, FISA, and OmniBus Crime.

You got what? inuendo, name calling and accusations.

Read those 44 pages yet? or was it too hard for you? :rofl

You have yet to generate new or useful information for me, you're a waste of my time, and therefor this will be the last time i bother responding directly to you, Calm2Chaos. I will however correct you when I come across ignorant posts of yours, but for other's benefit, not yours.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Ok, since the consitution say nothing about the air force, what then? Is the President CiC over the Airforce (or Marines, or National Guard, or Coast Guard)? since those are not mentioned in the Constitution, only Army and Navy are. OBVIOUSLY constitutional law extend beyond what the consitution states itself.

I was worried about it when clinton was in office. I am not a democrat. Too bad some people can't make that distinction.

You think wrong, assuming you actually think at all, or you would be sticking to the issue instead of me making the issue. My concern is not over myself, so there is no need to further attempt to make me the subject. Of course, you may be limited in intellect which restricts you from talking about events or ideas, and you'd ratehr gossip about people.

two of the branches of governmnet have legislated, interpreted legislation and the constitution that US Citizens do in fact have privacy rights, born out of the 4th amendment and constitutionally valid law, including but not limited to Privacy Act, FISA, and OmniBus Crime.

You got what? inuendo, name calling and accusations.

Read those 44 pages yet? or was it too hard for you? :rofl

You have yet to generate new or useful information for me, you're a waste of my time, and therefor this will be the last time i bother responding directly to you, Calm2Chaos. I will however correct you when I come across ignorant posts of yours, but for other's benefit, not yours.

O no... a screaming liberal doesn't like it when you disagree with him... Wow.. that not a huge surprise is it. Your just another in a long line in your group working and looking at ways to weaken this country and expose it to more attacks.

I don't think I called you any names that I can remember, least up till that last paragraph , and I don't recall the inuendo your refering to? I recall a lil sarcasim and some humor but no real inuendo. So I am sorry if you were offended at anything I said.................Let face it... No i'm not. :roll: Needless to say I will still respond to your lovely and interesting post occasionally, just for entertainment sake.:lol:

 

[Binary_Digit]

OMG how can the President win the war on terrorism when he's not allowed to eat infants? I mean, eating infants can save American lives! (about as many as torture can)


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

The people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists as being unpatriotic and exposing the country to greater danger.


Any man willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.

But unless you can prove to me that NO innocent lives have been saved from the information then we have a ways to go.

According to most modern philosophers, it's impossible to prove the non-existance of something. Besides, the burden of proof is always on the person who is making the claim. The idea that torture works hasn't been proven so far, and in fact almost all the evidence points to the contrary. Torture only works in Hollywood, so disallowing it is not tieing anyone's hands or preventing them from doing anything that's even effective in the first place.

See my sig, they are words the entire human race should live by.