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"Bug Chasers" & "Gifting"

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Bug Chasers

What you will read below will shock and horrify you. Homosexual men are now participating in 'unsafe' sex practices in order to get AIDS. They attend sex parties, with either a tattoo announcing their hiv status, or play a game of sexual russian roulette in which they have sex with hiv positive men, in order to become a part of the 'family'.

Homosexuals claim to that their 'orientation' is normal and natural. But this is just another example of mental illness. Who in their 'right mind' would set out to get a disease that kills? And then say that it makes them feel like they 'are finally a part of the family'!

Alarming Number of HIV-Positive Gay Men
Sought Infection, Says Health Official

The Director of Behavioral Health Services for San Francisco County, Dr. Robert Cabaj, has told Rolling Stone magazine that at least one-quarter of newly infected gay men may have sought out the fatal disease.
There are no hard numbers to back up his estimate, Cabaj said, but men known as "bug-chasers" are alarmingly common in the gay community--both men who consciously seek the virus, and those who are in denial about their wish to become HIV-positive.

According to Rolling Stone, Cabaj charged that gay organizations are actively covering up about the problem because "it's a difficult issue that dredges up some images about gay men that they don't want to have to deal with."

Some gay men say being HIV-positive "opens the door to sexual Nirvana" because they need no longer worry about safe sex, Rolling Stone noted, while others say they can't stand the idea of being different from their HIV-infected lover.

The newly published magazine article, entitled "In Search of Death" (February 6th) tells the story of Carlos, a man who considers HIV-transmission "the most erotic thing I can imagine."

Carlos estimates that he has already had several hundred sex partners; he eagerly awaits the day when he tests HIV-positive--at which time his erotic interest, Carlos says, will then turn toward infecting another person--which is known as "gift-giving."

"As sick as it sounds," Carlos said, "killing another man slowly" is exciting.

The thrill of unsafe sex is further heightened for Carlos by his own duplicity as a volunteer at the offices of the Gay Men's Health Crisis (GMHC), where he teaches other men how to protect themselves with condoms.

At the GMHC, an assistant director of community outreach, Daniel Castellano, admitted that "bug chasing" does exist. But Castellano told Rolling Stone that although he would try to "work with" a counselee who said he wanted to get infected, if that's a decision a man wants to make, he would ultimately respect that decision.

The Director of the office of HIV/AIDS at the Miami-Dade Department of Health confirmed that deliberate HIV infection is a "definite problem" in the Miami-Dade area as well.

The author of the Rolling Stone article, Gregory Freeman, said representatives of some gay organizations "actively dissuaded" him from writing the article.

In a follow-up to the Rolling Stone report, the Sunday Herald (www.sundayherald.com) described internet sites dedicated to bug-chasing, where "conversion parties" are celebrated, in which HIV-positive and HIV-negative men gather with the goal of having the HIV- positive men infect the others.

The Sunday Herald mentioned that a new documentary film, "The Gift," is to be shown at the prestigious Berlin International Film Festival this February. It features Doug Hitzel, a 21-year-old gay man from San Francisco who chose to become infected with the "gift" of his fatal infection. Dealing with the day-to-day reality of illness, Hitzel now says he regrets his decision.
 

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From the Mouths of Homosexuals themselves:

Bug Chasers
by Daniel Hill

Beyond ideas of wrong-doing and right-doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there. - Jalal al-Din Rumi

When people are labeled 'abnormal' simply because of their differences, and discriminated against because of those differences, their entire being can become paralyzed. The voice of the mind is stifled, the voice of the heart is oppressed, and the voice of action becomes disabled. For many decades in America, homosexuals have suffered in this way. Homosexuality was not only discriminated against, it was made illegal and labeled a mental disorder.
 
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The Unconscious Intention
I believe that the "Bug Chasers" of the older generation of Gay men may possibly be suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The diagnostic criteria in the DSM for PTSD is that the individual "has experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury... and that the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror." The DSM also states, "Individuals with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder may describe painful guilt feelings about surviving when others did not survive or about the things they had to do to survive."

Psychologist Walt Odets, in reference to the complex varieties of survivor guilt seen in HIV men, says, "HIV- men tend to be profoundly clinically depressed, anxious, disoriented, hypochondriachal, uncertain about the future, sexually dysfunctional, deeply demoralized and physically numb." He goes on to say that many HIV men "abuse alcohol or drugs, and their physicians prescribe them millions of dollars worth of tranquilizers, sleeping pills, anti-depressants and sedatives every year." Finally, Odets finds that more and more uninfected men now "live in nearly every detail like a dying man - disoriented, piecemeal, and with no assumption of the future."

My own experience bears this out. In the larger Gay ghettos of San Francisco and elsewhere, I have met older Gay men who have lost all of their friends and avoid developing new relationships. Such men live in a world often characterized by increasing isolation, unresolved anger, substance abuse, and a lack of desire to participate in activities they once enjoyed. I recall some men who were HIV- in the late eighties attending support groups where they openly expressed their hopelessness and alienation as they witnessed their friends, their peers, and their generation die. I have witnessed many such individuals express disappointment and despair that they were still alive. I have heard men say it would have been easier to die with the complications of AIDS because living meant having to learn to cope with multiple loss. Add to all of this the terribly revealing fact that, as Michaelangelo Signorile recently wrote, "far too many gay men say they actually fear growing old in a gay world that puts the young and buffed on a pedestal while treating the over-35 crowd like lepers."

The Intimacy of Bug Chasing
For some men, the desire and quest for intimacy is also bundled into this equation of bug chasing. Some men may fetishize the HIV virus, and act in intimate ways to relate to it, while others may feel so 'below' another that they risk their own well being for a fleeting moment of intimacy. In an article in POZ Magazine, Michael Scarce challenges our ideas of what might be considered intimacy when he writes: "Charged Loads...offer a kind of permanent partnership, a connection out-side of time." He quotes an HIV+ man as saying, "It turns me on knowing how much he wants my come and how much he's willing to deal with to get it." Scarce goes on to state that "the sharing of semen and reclaiming its rich symbolic meanings," reflects the desire for intimacy.

Sadly, I am skeptical that sharing of this kind can ultimately bring about the level of ongoing intimacy that these men are searching for.

I do not, however, believe that Scarce is advocating bug chasing, per sé, but is wisely presenting us with an opportunity to examine intimacy beyond our narrow understanding of it. We might think that these men are out of their minds, but that judgement is the measure of our own resistance. We need to explore this resistance if we are to understand more completely these men who are undeniably our own. Confronting my own negative judgement, I ask myself, "How dare I project my ideas of intimacy onto another." After all, isn't that the same root of oppression towards homosexuality that has occurred throughout this past century?

The Positives of Being HIV Positive
Ian Young, in his article The AIDS Cult and Its Seroconverts, says that many HIV- men think "HIV positives live richer, more complex, more 'authentic' lives, get more attention, are better able to take risks including, significantly, the 'risk of intimacy' and with such risk-taking, life can be meaningful and full."

I must confess that my own seroconversion (i.e. becoming HIV+) brought about tremendous grief coupled with a wonderful euphoric sense of liberation, of letting go-a liberation that taught me to love again. I know of many men, including myself, who, when they seroconverted, felt as though they were now encouraged to take better care of themselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Coupled with such feelings, many of these same men also felt as though they were finally supported by the community that they once felt so alienated from. Confirming this, Young writes "An HIV+ test result, or even an AIDS diagnosis, frequently results in a decrease in anxiety!"

Reacting with such positive emotions about such a devastating diagnosis seems quite strange at first, like a reversal in the logic stream. But this isn't about logic, it's about very complex psychological and emotional territory. It might be that such positive acceptance of finding oneself HIV positive arises developmentally from previous abnormal conditions. Such conditions might include chronic depression rooted in childhood unhappiness, socially induced guilt, and internalized homophobia. As these conditions develop, the opportunity to fully act out is then presented through barebacking and bug chasing. Seroconversion, in this case, may or may not be the goal.

But it might also be argued that there is a conditioning factor inherent in Gay culture that rewards men for becoming HIV positive, as though it were a rite of passage. If so, this would be a relatively new (within the last 20 years) cultural development, and something that we would do well to bring into the light of consciousness and intention. Is such a self-injurious rite of passage what we want for ourselves? Is it not possible to love and accept one another without having to seroconvert? Without having to die to feel loved?

A More Conscious Intention
It is difficult for me to imagine being young and coming into my sexuality after two decades of AIDS, be it gay, straight, or otherwise. My own sexual liberation twenty years ago held no such fears or threats. I did not have to confront the choice of whether or not to adhere to the "do's" and "don't's" of my sexual expression. Such expression was not desensitized by latex, interrupted with "informed" negotiation, nor stalled by the doubt or mistrust of my partner's sexual history. Such expression flowed with the rhythms of the heart and the body, not the ticking of an apprehensive mind.

But young people are coming into their sexuality, every day. HIV and AIDS are not new news. Their consciousness and choices are a world apart from what I and my generation experienced. And, given the world of choices and consequences they face, some choose barebacking and even bug chasing.

I think, for most people, it is very easy to demonize these behaviors. I did. My initial thought was that such men suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder which, according to the DSM, is characterized by a "lack of empathy and tendency to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and suffering of others." The DSM goes on to say, "These individuals may also be irresponsible and exploitive in their sexual relationships," and "are more likely than people in the general population to die prematurely by violent means, e.g. suicide, accidents, and homicides." I assumed that these men had no sense of remorse for the harm they commit, not only to others, but to themselves. I imagined an impulsive behavior and a failure to conform to reasonable social norms. I judged them negatively as being sexually irresponsible, exploitive, and cavalier.

Then I read the February '99 issue of POZ Magazine. It was dedicated to the subject of barebacking. POZ editor Walter Armstrong states, in reference to barebacking, "There has always been a strong outlaw element in gay sexuality, this is an extension."

This statement stopped me dead in my tracks. I began to recall the many friends, now dead, who might have been considered sexual outlaws, who might be considered deviant, callous, non-empathetic, or anti-social by those who did not really know them. But I did know them. And was I an "outlaw" as well? As I thought about it, I tried to look more deeply, to understand, and to cultivate the insight I might need to become more compassionate in regards to them, and to myself. As insight and compassion deepened, that negative judgement about barebacking and bug chasing had to be re-examined.

In light of this, I now view barebacking and bugchasing not as Antisocial Personality Disorder, but more as Self Inflicted Violence, or as I prefer to call it, Self Injurious Behavior. This realization turned the question from "how could someone do that?" to "how can I understand and help?"
 

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"Seroconversion as a right of passage"

Seroconversion as a Rite of Passage
As I read through the articles published in POZ, I found the young Gay men who advocated barebacking and bug chasing to be somewhat cavalier. The glamorization, eroticization, and the claims of deeper levels of intimacy made by these men would lead one to believe that they are indeed making informed choices in their sexual behavior. Consider, for example, this plea by Tony Valenzuela. In speaking about the practice of barebacking, he states, "We need to trust that young gay men will be wise in their decisions. They're not passive victims .... It's a huge disrespect to do otherwise."

Can we trust that young gay men are "wise in their decisions" when they engage in barebacking? If so, are we able to extend such a trust to young gay men who are bug chasers?

I do want to extend the trust that Tony Valenzuela and others ask for. At the same time, I don't accept all of these claims entirely at face value. My fear is that, if I were to do so, I wouldn't be getting to the deeper truth of this issue.

To their credit, bareback advocates are at last speaking out about the behavior that has been quietly hidden away in the closet for the past two decades, and on the surface it is informed. But I believe there are others, not so outspoken, who may be equally informed, but whose intention and experience may be seen in the light of Self Injurious Behavior.

For example, in the summer of 1999 I attended the Gay Men's Health Summit in Boulder Colorado. I recall speaking to a twenty year old man who openly shared with me his feelings of wanting to seroconvert. "I don't know why, I honestly don't know why." Informed, educated, but where is the depth of insight to such desire? What's driving it?

Self Injurious Behavior may have several motivations. From the web site <http://www.palace.net/> I found several points to consider that shed light on bug chasing. Self injurers say that their behavior offers: "escape from emptiness, depression ... relief from intense feelings... an expression of emotional pain ... escaping numbness ... a feeling of euphoria... a relief of anger... a sense of control over one's body... expressing or coping with feeling of alienation."

We're right back to that self-injurious rite of passage. For many men, being gay in the 1990's is equated with being HIV+. Such thinking has divided our community, creating strong feelings of alienation and anger for many who are HIV- . How to heal this rift? By seroconverting, many men believe that they will finally be supported by the community they once felt alienated from.

Michael Scarce writes "barebacking is equated with 'breeding' and infection with 'impregnation.' Some HIV bug chasers have gone so far as to consciously choose the individual gift-giver who will 'father' their HIV infection." Such a rite of passage for some undoubtedly completes their identification with being gay and deepens their role as a member of the community.

I believe many Gay men experience a great deal of internalized shame and anger through awakening to, and acceptance of, their sexuality in a homophobic society. The resulting Self Injurious Behavior paradoxically provides an individual with an opportunity to nurture himself, "to make internal wounds external and to nurture and heal these wounds. . . it is much easier to take care of a visible, tangible wound than to care for internal or emotional damage," according to web site <http://www.cymax.com/>.

Living with the constant fear of becoming HIV+ or dying with complications of AIDS often manifests in internalized anger or feelings of numbness. But, paradoxically, a positive HIV test result can provide relief for the person who has seroconverted. I believe what is being relieved is internalized rage, anger, and the numbness produced by excessive fear. The article Protease Dis-inhibitors? quotes a young man as saying, "That awful waiting is gone ... Maybe now that I am HIV positive, I can finally have my life."

For me, it is not so hard to imagine living in such fear and numbness that one feels as though one doesn't even have a life. As I reflect on my own experience with sincere honesty, I must say that my life prior to HIV was very lonely and empty. It is as though HIV enabled me to discover the depths of myself and a new depth of connection with the greater human family through all of our suffering, not just my own.

Something Absolute
I am the "Bug Chaser." I am every man spoken of in this article. I am the man who has witnessed so many die while wishing that I was dying, too. I was once the hopeless, the depressed, the alienated, the physically numb. I was the one who could care less about the future; the one who felt so below another that I would put my life in jeopardy for that fleeting moment of intimacy. I was the man who slept with infected men, who had unprotected sex with these men, through the haze of alcohol, drugs, desire, and anger. I was the man who demonized my own behavior and hated myself for such behavior. I was the man who was asking for help in so many conscious and unconscious ways. I am the man whose life became full, whose life became meaningful after my seroconversion. I am the man who finally got his life back through a glimpse of liberation when I realized the depths of impermanence. I am the man who wanted to share the intimacy of suffering together and of healing together, and I am the man who knows true intimacy now.

So often we grasp for absolutes, for that which is "right," that which is "wrong," that which is "normal," that which is "abnormal." But in our grasping, we set ourselves apart and bolster ourselves there with what appears to be "fact" or "truth," and our own personal experience. It's a thin security.

I began my research into the behavior of bug chasing by turning to the wisdom of psychology to try to understand. But I have learned that, to get to the whole truth, we must let go of the definitions and the story, let go of the "bug chasers," for ultimately their story is not qualitatively different from the story of smokers, drug addicts, alcoholics and the rest of "us." Their story is little different from those who drive their cars too fast, or choose not to wear a seat belt, or use cell phones that cause brain tumors. Everyone is in the closet about something. The only real difference is the demonization of their behavior-and that's not about "them," it's about us. It is easy to condemn others for what they do, but are we able to own our own self-destructive tendencies, conscious or unconscious? Bug chasers are members of the human race, like everyone else.

I once was taught that when we ask for help, we create the opportunity for love to be expressed in the world. I think back to the eighties and how we continually asked for help then. It is true that we were often ignored, but it is equally true that we were often heard. I have witnessed a great deal of love manifested in the world in this way. I know how difficult it is for me to ask for help. More often than not, the difficulty is identifying what I need help with and learning to articulate it.

That which is absolute is the truth of our own hearts. That which is absolute is our willingness to look deeply into our own resistance and love what we discover there. In my journey, through researching and writing this article, I have had to come face to face with a tremendous amount of grief, a tremendous amount of self-demonization, a tremendous amount of truth that I had ignored for far too many years. It is difficult to love this part of myself but it becomes easier each time I re-read the words written here. It is through the cultivation of this love that I will be able to love my gay brothers who share this experience with me, and this I know as absolute
 

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My question is: What does this have to do with Gay Marriage?

The most recent threads started by Lib have boiled down to Ad Hominem attacks and are completely off topic.
 

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Since Gay marriage is a homosexual political goal, and since there are other posts/topics within the main "Gay marriage" topic, it is the most appropo category to place discussions related to homosexual politics.

I know all these things I am posting exposing the Homosexual Agneda and their behaviors is a public relations nightmare for you, but try to stay on topic, your thinly veiled desires to politically censor me might leave some people thinking your an advocate for homosexist intolerance, bigotry, mean spiritedness, discrimination and hate.
 

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Libertarian said:
Since Gay marriage is a homosexual political goal, and since there are other posts/topics within the main "Gay marriage" topic, it is the most appropo category to place discussions related to homosexual politics.
Maybe we should change the forum name actually. Good thought.

As for the bug chasers/gifters. They're a crazy bunch. Luckily for every Clinton there's a Bush. Doesn't mean all the presidents are the same anymore than it means that all of the homosexuals are the same either.
 

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Re the "for every Clinto their is a Bush analogy", are you suggesting there is an equivalent counterpart subculture in the heterosexual community that actively seeks out HIV seroconversion?
 

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Libertarian said:
Re the "for every Clinto their is a Bush analogy", are you suggesting there is an equivalent counterpart subculture in the heterosexual community that actively seeks out HIV seroconversion?
That wasn't the point I was making. My point was, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If a small group* of homosexuals are bug chasers/gifters, that doesn't reflect on the whole group of homosexuals. Clinton's views do not reflect the views of all of the presidents and neither do Bush's views.



*No one has reliable figures on “bug chasers” and there is concern about their mental stability.
 

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Libertarian said:
Since Gay marriage is a homosexual political goal, and since there are other posts/topics within the main "Gay marriage" topic, it is the most appropo category to place discussions related to homosexual politics.

I know all these things I am posting exposing the Homosexual Agneda and their behaviors is a public relations nightmare for you, but try to stay on topic, your thinly veiled desires to politically censor me might leave some people thinking your an advocate for homosexist intolerance, bigotry, mean spiritedness, discrimination and hate.

:lol: Now you're just getting silly!

Honey, your ad hominem attacks really don't phase me on the whole. Your insistence to continue your ga-bashing is more and more apparent with each thread you start.
The fact that you feel it's necessary in a forum discussion on politics is what's truly disturbing.


I'm concerned about the obsession that so many Radcons have with the sex lives of liberals. From Clinton to homosexuals, they take grandstanding to a new level. All the while divorce rates among "Christian Conservatives" still FAR out numbers "liberals" and white collar drug use is at an all time HIGH. (pardon the pun)
Prostetution and Pornography are NOT the sole propriety of homosexuals or even liberals for that matter.
Remember our own President, the self appointed Morality Leader, allowed Abu Graibe and had their own patsy-boy in Jeff Ganon.

Sexual scandals and Right-wingnuts aren't strangers by any means. From Pat Robertson to Jerry Falwell, they all have their skeletons in and out of the closet.

Your insistance on dredging up the most disgusting elements of the gay community only shows your personal obsession for what it is.
 

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JustineCredible said:
:lol: Now you're just getting silly!

Honey, your ad hominem attacks really don't phase me on the whole.
They must, otehrwise you would debate the posts instead of upsing scripted epithet "Jamming" techniques strategeized in the Homosexual Agenda as written in "Overhauling Straight America" by homosexual marketers Kirk, Madsen and Pill.

Your insistence to continue your ga-bashing is more and more apparent with each thread you start.
Readers, this again is the "jamming" tactic afrorementioned where the strategy is not not engage in a substnative debate, it is to paint oppositon as unstable, thus the homosexual agenda tatician gets to avoid the debate and deflect from the public relations nightmare homosexual behavior brings.

The fact that you feel it's necessary in a forum discussion on politics is what's truly disturbing.
Should I be silent and not vocally oppose and or expose the Homosexual Agenda?

I'm concerned about the obsession that so many Radcons have with the sex lives of liberals.
Trust me, my sex life is far better and I have had far more fantasies heterosexually fullfilled then the average RadLib. Often times the obsession conservatives have with liberals is they wish they were gettingheterosexually laid more. Most conservatives though are far more heterosexually adventurous then you know...I personally disagree with alot of what conservatives and especially Biblical fundamentalists have to say and think about sexual promiscuity. The way organized Western Religions control their members is by making t?em feel guilty about sexual pleasure, and the way violent societies ensure, encourage and perpetuate violence is by substituting intoleranbce of pleasure for tolerance of violence. You are highly guilty of steroetyping. Remember, I am a libertarian, and I beleive in the core values of libertarianism, and most of the values of conservative republicanism, which is liberty, freedom, and acceptance of a high degree of personal responsibility and accountability, a highly limited government just like Reagan though when he said; "The government that governs the least governs the best.

From Clinton to homosexuals, they take grandstanding to a new level.
Politicians in general are all to a degree guilty of this.....if I here one more politician defending raising taxes on workign stiffs under the laughable claim of "let's do it for the children" as they hold a baby, I think I will barf.

All the while divorce rates among "Christian Conservatives" still FAR out numbers "liberals" and white collar drug use is at an all time HIGH.[/quote

Well, you seem to have issues with Christians, you don't see me defending them although I would prefer them as neighbors over "Tina" using heavy letehrmen pedophile chicken hawk cruisers at a "bug chasing and gifting party" just after they left a Massachuesetts School Board workshop to teach children to homosexually fist eachother..

Prostetution and Pornography are NOT the sole propriety of homosexuals or even liberals for that matter.
We don't disagree, and I personally think both in the right circumstances are beneficial to society, just frequently not the way they are often done. The current popular sub-genre of degradation of women in porn I find disgusting.

Sexual scandals and Right-wingnuts aren't strangers by any means. From Pat Robertson to Jerry Falwell, they all have their skeletons in and out of the closet.
It is telling you picked two Christian Fundamentalists. I am unaware of any sex "scandals" by either of the two. I personally couldn't care less about either of their sexual lives, as I certainly thought the liberal medias fascination with Clinton receiving oral sex was none of anyone's business. My sympathy went out to Lewisnky as I though Clinton was not a real man because he didn't return the favor and I personally would be too worried a dry cigar would not bring pleasure to a woman....

Your insistance on dredging up the most disgusting elements of the gay community only shows your personal obsession for what it is.
No, look, let's get a few things straight. Some heterosexuals abuse drugs, some so called Christians have sex with prostitutes and transexuals,some of them have multiple anonymous partners and a host of other behaviors. It is male homosexuals who engage in a DISPROPORTIONATE number of behaviors some would consider revolting that I intend to allude to with evidence, much of it from homosexuals themselves. Maybe if homosexuals didn't deny this public relations nightmare and engage in an incredibly successful campaign of propaganda and denial, that exposing it wouldn't be so easy....and so entertaining since due to the sucess of their propaganda campaign and their use of "The Big Lie" technique from the book that homosexual politial extremists "ActUp!" (Aids Coaltion To Unleash Power) publically has admitted to using when they said they took their tactics from from Hitler's Mein Kampf.
 

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While looking through homosexual male personal ads looking for sexual partners willing to abuse crystal meth, as I mentioned was rampant in the male homosewxual community and acts as an HIV modulator via immunosupression, I came across this "bug chaser/gifter":

46 (real age) worked out nasty stud, looking worked out top or vers top for doing what a top does. Looking to get f..ked slow fast and every way in between all night for uninhibited sweaty session. Please be hung, nasty and looking to go all night.

Let's f..k. Poz here, prefer bb.
 

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Libertarian said:
While looking through homosexual male personal ads looking for sexual partners willing to abuse crystal meth, as I mentioned was rampant in the male homosewxual community and acts as an HIV modulator via immunosupression, I came across this "bug chaser/gifter":
That's horrible. But hey, he's upfront about his HIV status and is a consenting adult. Why should you care?
 

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shuamort said:
That's horrible. But hey, he's upfront about his HIV status and is a consenting adult. Why should you care?
Just because these people are sick, twisted, self destructive and perverse, doesn't mean I utterly complete devalue their lives. These filthbags are still someones sons whose parents love them and I never want to see anyone suffer, the cruel, hideous, painful wasting death of their self-induced fatal disease.

Additionally, when people engage in this type of self destructive deliberate behavior, they deliberately tax health insurance and thus remarkably impact premiums that the rest of us normal heterosexual people have to subsidize, and these homosexual shave managed to make it illegal to ask sexual behaviorstatus so insruance companies cancharge higher premiums for male homosexuals (female homosexuals' HIV rates are similar to heterosexuals-sexually vectored HIV is almost non-existant in the U.S.- proving AIDS in fact is a highly discriminatory disease).

Male homosexual behavior should no more be financially subsidized by heterosexuals then non-smokers should subsidize and significantly underwrite the health care insurance of smokers.

And don't forget, dueling is illegal, and essentially that is what this is.
 

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Libertarian said:
Just because these people are sick, twisted, self destructive and perverse, doesn't mean I utterly complete devalue their lives. These filthbags are still someones sons whose parents love them and I never want to see anyone suffer, the cruel, hideous, painful wasting death of their self-induced fatal disease.

Additionally, when people engage in this type of self destructive deliberate behavior, they deliberately tax health insurance and thus remarkably impact premiums that the rest of us normal heterosexual people have to subsidize, and these homosexual shave managed to make it illegal to ask sexual behaviorstatus so insruance companies cancharge higher premiums for male homosexuals (female homosexuals' HIV rates are similar to heterosexuals-sexually vectored HIV is almost non-existant in the U.S.- proving AIDS in fact is a highly discriminatory disease).

Male homosexual behavior should no more be financially subsidized by heterosexuals then non-smokers should subsidize and significantly underwrite the health care insurance of smokers.
It's still none of your business of course. But if you want to talk about it, non-smokers do not subsidize smokers' health care insurance. Smokers do that with their higher premiums. An insurance company can create biases based on things that are typically federally protected class (such as age, marital status and gender). So that should alleviate any of your concerns.
 

Libertarian

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shuamort said:
It's still none of your business of course. But if you want to talk about it, non-smokers do not subsidize smokers' health care insurance. Smokers do that with their higher premiums. An insurance company can create biases based on things that are typically federally protected class (such as age, marital status and gender). So that should alleviate any of your concerns.
That is because smokers do not have a lobby and have not adopted the tactic of the negro rights movement like homosexuals have.

I know I for the most part don't subsidize smokers health care, I do subsidize male homosexuals health care, and that is just WRONG!

Male homosexuals have passed laws forcing heterosexual health care buyers to subsidize their deliberate behaviors highly efficient at killing the host at rates in excess of 50%.
 

shuamort

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Libertarian said:
That is because smokers do not have a lobby and have not adopted the tactic of the negro rights movement like homosexuals have.
Tobacco doesn't have a lobby? You sure you want to debate down that road?

Libertarian said:
I know I for the most part don't subsidize smokers health care, I do subsidize male homosexuals health care, and that is just WRONG!

Male homosexuals have passed laws forcing heterosexual health care buyers to subsidize their deliberate behaviors highly efficient at killing the host at rates in excess of 50%.
What laws are these? Please list them specifically.
 

JustineCredible

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shuamort said:
That's horrible. But hey, he's upfront about his HIV status and is a consenting adult. Why should you care?
Indeed, but one must wonder why a self-proclaimed heterosexual would even admit to:
"While looking through homosexual male personal ads..."
:roll:
 

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What laws are these? Please list them specifically.
To ask your political debate opponant of all things research and cite the laws that prohibit insurance companies from charging higher premiums to male homosexuals because they disproportionately seroconvert and tax the pool is not only ludicrous (thanks Mike Tyson), but is a common scripted debate tactic of the loosing side.

I said smokers don't have a lobby within the context that they have not lobbied to my knowlege to get their behavior listed as a civil right and have not lobbied to make it illegal to charge them higher health insurance rates.

That is quite obvious from my post, but you resorted to some very transparent straw arguments.....I must have faith in your abilities more then exist or more likely, more then you admit to, because I think you are far more capable then this....consider that a combination of a backhanded but honest compliment and a simultaneous challenge. ;)

As to JustineCredible, you continue to use the Homosexual Agneda "jamming tactic because you cannot make any other argument.

JusticeCredible, from a tactical standpoint, do you agree or disagree that it is wise to study the ways of one's adversaries if the goal is to prevail upon them?

Readers, watch her response now, her response is going to be QUITE telling.
 

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Libertarian said:
To ask your political debate opponant of all things research and cite the laws that prohibit insurance companies from charging higher premiums to male homosexuals because they disproportionately seroconvert and tax the pool is not only ludicrous (thanks Mike Tyson), but is a common scripted debate tactic of the loosing side.
No, this is debate. If you make a claim that doesn't ring true, expect people to call you on it. If you can't back up your claim. Retract it. Even apologize. But if you can't back it up, don't blame your opponent. I'll wait for you to back up the claim that there are laws that prohibit insurance companies from charging higher premiums to homophiles (you don't even have to go the HIV part, just the gay part).

Libertarian said:
I said smokers don't have a lobby within the context that they have not lobbied to my knowlege to get their behavior listed as a civil right and have not lobbied to make it illegal to charge them higher health insurance rates.
It's a bit late to quantify and change your words, when they're hanging out there all pink and naked up above. You explicitly and solely said: That is because smokers do not have a lobby and have not adopted the tactic of the negro rights movement like homosexuals have.

Libertarian said:
That is quite obvious from my post, but you resorted to some very transparent straw arguments.....I must have faith in your abilities more then exist or more likely, more then you admit to, because I think you are far more capable then this....consider that a combination of a backhanded but honest compliment and a simultaneous challenge. ;)
Meh, we'll see how I fare. lol.

Libertarian said:
JusticeCredible, from a tactical standpoint, do you agree or disagree that it is wise to study the ways of one's adversaries if the goal is to prevail upon them?
The better question would be, why do you think homosexuals are your adversaries?
 

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Libertarian said:
Since Gay marriage is a homosexual political goal, and since there are other posts/topics within the main "Gay marriage" topic, it is the most appropo category to place discussions related to homosexual politics.

I know all these things I am posting exposing the Homosexual Agneda and their behaviors is a public relations nightmare for you, but try to stay on topic, your thinly veiled desires to politically censor me might leave some people thinking your an advocate for homosexist intolerance, bigotry, mean spiritedness, discrimination and hate.

Do you really think that homosexual that want to be in another commited relaitonship with another man or woman Want to goto a bug party? You brought it up because you think of it as mud to sling at the homosexual community. Transparent.


I have heard of an act called a "fat girl rodeo"
where a group of males gets together and an individual is chosen to set up an obesse female to trick into thinking he is intrested in a sexual encounter. The Fake couple then goes back to hotel room or apartment or wherever his buddies are hiding. Then when the female has taken off her clothes and is laying down. The male gets on top of the Girl and is supposed to scream fat girl rodeo! and his friend run in and all laugh at the poor girl who was fooled into being part of their cruel amusment.

So i ask you, do ALL straight people do this? have you been involved in a fat girl rodeo? Now its your duty to notify the world of this type of act!

Does this have anything to do with straight marriage?
 

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Libertarian said:
Re the "for every Clinto their is a Bush analogy", are you suggesting there is an equivalent counterpart subculture in the heterosexual community that actively seeks out HIV seroconversion?

umm yes actually... There is a heterosexual counterpart.

You know what they call them? Bugchasers!
 

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Libertarian said:
Additionally, when people engage in this type of self destructive deliberate behavior, they deliberately tax health insurance and thus remarkably impact premiums that the rest of us normal heterosexual people have to subsidize, and these homosexual shave managed to make it illegal to ask sexual behaviorstatus so insruance companies cancharge higher premiums for male homosexuals (female homosexuals' HIV rates are similar to heterosexuals-sexually vectored HIV is almost non-existant in the U.S.- proving AIDS in fact is a highly discriminatory disease).

Male homosexual behavior should no more be financially subsidized by heterosexuals then non-smokers should subsidize and significantly underwrite the health care insurance of smokers.

And don't forget, dueling is illegal, and essentially that is what this is.
HA! what about straight peoples kids raising my insurance rates? and me paying for their education through my taxes?
 
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