Brexit and Trump Parallels

LowDown · Jun 27, 2016

There’s a delicious irony to Remainers’ branding of Leave voters as confused individuals who have simply made a desperate howling noise, whose anti-EU vote was a ‘howl of anger’ (Tim Farron) or a ‘howl of frustration’ (JK Rowling). Which is that if anyone’s been howling in recent days, it’s them, the top dogs of the Remain campaign. They are howling against the demos; raging against the people; fuming about a system that allows even that portly bloke at the end of your street who never darkened the door of a university to have a say on important political matters. That system we call democracy.

...Media commentary has dripped with contempt for the moronic people. ‘Some of the oldest and whitest people on the planet leapt at a chance to vote against the monsters in their heads’, howled a writer for Esquire. There’s much talk about the people being ‘manipulated’ by lies and misinformation, as if they’re lifeless putty in the hands of the likes of Farage. Some have gone so far as to twist the definition of democracy in an attempt to rubbish the people’s will. ‘The idea that somehow any decision reached anytime by majority rule is necessarily “democratic” is a perversion of the term’, says Harvard professor Kenneth Rogoff. Sometimes, democracy means making sure the people ‘avoid making uninformed decisions with catastrophic consequences’, he says. So it can be democratic to thwart the majority’s wishes if we think they’re stupid. And they have the gall to talk about manipulation.

The parallel with the #NeverTrump people is striking.

Well, if it's fair to ignore the majority if the brilliant minds of the elite think it best then it's certainly also fair to ignore the rights of the minority if, in our own wisdom, we deem the minority to be an arrogant self important double dealing bunch of self serving toffs. So it's rather surprising to find the elite so quick to trash the traditions of orderly democracy since that's the only thing saving them from crowds of irate citizens with pitchforks.

Crovax · Jun 27, 2016

LowDown said:
The Howl Against Democracy

The parallel with the #NeverTrump people is striking.

Well, if it's fair to ignore the majority if the brilliant minds of the elite think it best then it's certainly also fair to ignore the rights of the minority if, in our own wisdom, we deem the minority to be an arrogant self important double dealing bunch of self serving toffs. So it's rather surprising to find the elite so quick to trash the traditions of orderly democracy since that's the only thing saving them from crowds of irate citizens with pitchforks.

apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of the tyranny of the majority

some suggested reading: Federalist Papers No. 51 - Bill of Rights Institute

LowDown · Jun 27, 2016

Crovax said:
apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of the tyranny of the majority

some suggested reading: Federalist Papers No. 51 - Bill of Rights Institute

Apparently you have a problem with reading comprehensively. Go tell your grandmother to read the Federalist Papers. :2razz:

Crovax · Jun 27, 2016

LowDown said:
Apparently you have a problem with reading comprehensively. Go tell your grandmother to read the Federalist Papers. :2razz:

My grandma is not a Trumpette who cant seem to grasp the idea of why a republican form of government is better than a full democratic one, you on the other hand....

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

LowDown said:
The Howl Against Democracy

The parallel with the #NeverTrump people is striking.

Well, if it's fair to ignore the majority if the brilliant minds of the elite think it best then it's certainly also fair to ignore the rights of the minority if, in our own wisdom, we deem the minority to be an arrogant self important double dealing bunch of self serving toffs. So it's rather surprising to find the elite so quick to trash the traditions of orderly democracy since that's the only thing saving them from crowds of irate citizens with pitchforks.

52% voted for Brexit with 75% turnout. That's not exactly a groundswell of democracy. :roll:

Captain Adverse · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
52% voted for Brexit with 75% turnout. That's not exactly a groundswell of democracy. :roll:

Perhaps.

But it is a majority of the 3/4 majority of citizens who voted. You can't drag people into an election and you can't assume that a non-vote was a vote for the side you agree with.

Renae · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
52% voted for Brexit with 75% turnout. That's not exactly a groundswell of democracy. :roll:

Goal posts move when your side loses.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

Renae said:
Goal posts move when your side loses.

That usually happens. But, when you think about it, challenging it makes sense. 52% is not exactly a resounding voice.

I read yesterday where the pro EU people plan to overturn the referendum. Should be interesting.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

Captain Adverse said:
Perhaps.

But it is a majority of the 3/4 majority of citizens who voted. You can't drag people into an election and you can't assume that a non-vote was a vote for the side you agree with.

Sure. But, it does give fuel to the fire. Kind of like when W barely won Florida and lost the popular vote outright. Most people who voted against him still think SCOTUS stole that election.

Renae · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
That usually happens. But, when you think about it, challenging it makes sense. 52% is not exactly a resounding voice.

I read yesterday where the pro EU people plan to overturn the referendum. Should be interesting.

You're right, the simple majority of the past that has been the standard just isn't good enough this time, let's keep having votes until we get that 50.0000001% to stay, that will be the real will of the people!

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

Renae said:
You're right, the simple majority of the past that has been the standard just isn't good enough this time, let's keep having votes until we get that 50.0000001% to stay, that will be the real will of the people!

I say let them live with it a few years and learn regret. That's how I do things...learn the hard way. I think it's healthy.

blaxshep · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
I say let them live with it a few years and learn regret. That's how I do things...learn the hard way. I think it's healthy.

Regret? They regret being sucked into the liberal globalization nightmare that why they opted out.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

blaxshep said:
Regret? They regret being sucked into the liberal globalization nightmare that why they opted out.

Well, when London suddenly--as in right away--stops being the EU's financial center, we'll see how all that works out.

I always get a kick out of Righties failure to recognize the bigger picture. It's a blind spot made worse once the political rhetoric gets going.

blaxshep · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
Well, when London suddenly--as in right away--stops being the EU's financial center, we'll see how all that works out.

I always get a kick out of Righties failure to recognize the bigger picture. It's a blind spot made worse once the political rhetoric gets going.

I'm sure they will kick themselves for no longer having to send the European dependents $500B a year and losing their sovereignty to liberal socialists. :roll:

whataboutbob · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
Well, when London suddenly--as in right away--stops being the EU's financial center, we'll see how all that works out.

I always get a kick out of Righties failure to recognize the bigger picture. It's a blind spot made worse once the political rhetoric gets going.

I find the above curious... While I certainly see the case for downside pressure in the markets due to uncertainty of the future, I think if you truly look at the long term picture... leaving was in the interest of the UK. The EU (like the Euro) is going to fail, in my opinion. The UK will not be the only one departing the EU. The loss of UK funding is going to hamper the ability of the EU. While the pound has been pounded the past couple of days, in the end it should return to being the second most powerful currency behind the dollar.

Obviously only time will tell. I could be wrong. But the UK is now free of Brussels idiocy. That is a big win.

blaxshep · Jun 27, 2016

From the Brexit, a New Birth of Freedom - Arthur Schaper

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

blaxshep said:
I'm sure they will kick themselves for no longer having to send the European dependents $500B a year and losing their sovereignty to liberal socialists. :roll:

Yeah, yeah, we all know the bright shiny objects that were swung in front of everyone's eyes. But, how many who voted to leave the EU expected this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cline-is-the-biggest-impact-of-brexit-so-far/

It's what happens when one of the most revered currencies in the world starts to act a little bit like the currency of a smaller, developing economy.

...If companies in the U.K. now have problems reaching the rest of Europe with their products, then the U.K. would also become less attractive to investors worldwide, who might shift business across the English Channel. Fewer Brits would find work with foreign firms, potentially including in the City of London, long the locus of financial activity for Europe as a whole.

..."They had a role in Europe as a financial center and even almost more importantly as a beachhead for foreign companies, particularly U.S. companies wanting to export into Europe. And that’s frankly going to go away, not entirely but a lot more and a lot faster than many people seem to think."

blaxshep · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
Yeah, yeah, we all know the bright shiny objects that were swung in front of everyone's eyes. But, how many who voted to leave the EU expected this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cline-is-the-biggest-impact-of-brexit-so-far/

Pretty much everyone. It is a temporary reaction.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

whataboutbob said:
I find the above curious... While I certainly see the case for downside pressure in the markets due to uncertainty of the future, I think if you truly look at the long term picture... leaving was in the interest of the UK. The EU (like the Euro) is going to fail, in my opinion. The UK will not be the only one departing the EU. The loss of UK funding is going to hamper the ability of the EU. While the pound has been pounded the past couple of days, in the end it should return to being the second most powerful currency behind the dollar.

Obviously only time will tell. I could be wrong. But the UK is now free of Brussels idiocy. That is a big win.

I look to Africa...with all it's complicated border crossings and restrictions between countries, all rife with graft and long delays. If the EU Balkanizes, it will destroy the high standard of living they enjoy today.

While I too agree that allowing Brussels---one mightily screwed up city---to govern and impose rules on the people in the UK was a bad idea. I believe just bailing out on the economic union is even worse.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

blaxshep said:
Pretty much everyone. It is a temporary reaction.

We'll see. I predict they will feel a lot of pain. A lot of it.

SailaWay · Jun 27, 2016

AGAIN we are seeing that The UK VOTE to drop out of the euro union is a winner for UK and the ones staying LOSERS...

friday stock market had UK losing 3.15%... france 6.2%.. germany 6.8%

today monday has it Uk losing 2.5%.... france 3.4% and germany 3.5%

what we see is the money is betting on that the immigration issue harms and UK stopping the immigration issue is harmed less and germany bringing the immigration issue the most harmed the most

whataboutbob · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
I look to Africa...with all it's complicated border crossings and restrictions between countries, all rife with graft and long delays. If the EU Balkanizes, it will destroy the high standard of living they enjoy today.

While I too agree that allowing Brussels---one mightily screwed up city---to govern and impose rules on the people in the UK was a bad idea. I believe just bailing out on the economic union is even worse.

Looking at a bunch of third world countries in Africa and trying to compare that to Europe is a bit of a stretch. The economic union is not in the interest of the citizens of the UK if they are not getting a return on their investment. Subsidizing other EU nations is not going to make Britain stronger. The labor issue is one that can be resolved without the need to be part of the bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

whataboutbob said:
Looking at a bunch of third world countries in Africa and trying to compare that to Europe is a bit of a stretch. The economic union is not in the interest of the citizens of the UK if they are not getting a return on their investment. Subsidizing other EU nations is not going to make Britain stronger. The labor issue is one that can be resolved without the need to be part of the bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU.

Hving your goods and people cross borders seemlessly should not be overlooked. If the US was 57 countries instead of states, we'd be a mess...and, yes, many of those states would resemble Africa.

blaxshep · Jun 27, 2016

calamity said:
Hving your goods and people cross borders seemlessly should not be overlooked. If the US was 57 countries instead of states, we'd be a mess...and, yes, many of those states would resemble Africa.

If it was only open boarders and a single currency it wouldn't be so bad, but being in the union comes with being subjected a Nanny State Globalist Liberal Utopia. The British are just the first to leave. Other people's money is great unless you are the other people. I think its funny watching the liberals standing around with their mouth's agape; they cant fathom the idea that the British can survive without a skirt to hide under.

calamity · Jun 27, 2016

blaxshep said:
If it was only open boarders and a single currency it wouldn't be so bad, but being in the union comes with being subjected a Nanny State Globalist Liberal Utopia. The British are just the first to leave. Other people's money is great unless you are the other people. I think its funny watching the liberals standing around with their mouth's agape; they cant fathom the idea that the British can survive without a skirt to hide under.

We'll see. I predict a ten year recession in the UK. It's not like they are a powerhouse anymore. Hell, they may have had more to gain by staying than meets the eye.

Brexit and Trump Parallels

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