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Bob Simon Piece on 60 Minutes: Is Peace out of Reach?

That's a good video.

I think I've gained more and more respect for Ms Livni in the past week or so, and that video does a nice job of putting her in context with the rather insane settlers. She made some rather bold comments, I hope she has the balls to live up to them.

edit: One other thing, after watching how that Palestinian family is practically under house arrest to quarter those soldiers, it's clearer to me now more than ever why the framers of the constitution explicitly banned that practice.
 
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That's a good video.

I think I've gained more and more respect for Ms Livni in the past week or so, and that video does a nice job of putting her in context with the rather insane settlers. She made some rather bold comments, I hope she has the balls to live up to them.

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Glad you liked it Joby. Bob simon pieces are always great to watch.

She is certainly more pragmatic than say the Likud chairman. I hope she wins eventhough that seems more unlikely as polls show the likud with at least 5 Knesset seats advantage as of today. Despite what she said in the video clip, the settlements growth in the west bank was up 69% compared to 2007, that is a 15,000 more settlers in the west bank of which 39% are in the settlements that Livni was likely to dismantle. The settlers number is around 285,000 in the west bank excluding 200,000 or so in east Jerusalem.

Settlement growth up 69% in 2008 | Israel | Jerusalem Post
The report added that the settler population grew from 270,000 in 2007 to 285,000 in 2008.

The data collected by the group was published on the same day that the new US Middle East envoy George Mitchell was due to arrive in Israel and two weeks before the Knesset elections.

The study charged that despite international agreements, the Kadima and Labor parties had allowed settlement growth to increase.

While the government's policy has been to allow settlement growth in areas of the West Bank that Israel is likely to retain under any final status agreement with the Palestinians, Peace Now has charged that 39 percent of the growth in 2008 was outside those areas.

If this growth continues, it will no longer be possible to create a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank, Peace Now charged.

edit: One other thing, after watching how that Palestinian family is practically under house arrest to quarter those soldiers, it's clearer to me now more than ever why the framers of the constitution explicitly banned that practice.

That segment was disturbing. IDF soldiers arriving unannounced at the middle of the night forcing themselves to be "guests" and staying for days inside the private Palestinian house. Imagine what would be the reaction in the US if a group of the Wisconsin national guard forced themselves as guests at a Dane county farm house for days consuming fine wisconsin cheese and other dairy products from the farm shring bedrooms with the residents!!
 
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I give those settlers and A for tactics but an F for strategy.

There is no way a sustainable one state solution can ever favor the Zionists, by making the two state solution impossible they are essentially dooming Israel.

From the article:

Demographers predict that within ten years Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Without a separate Palestinian state the Israelis would have three options, none of them good. They could try ethnic cleansing, drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or they could give the Palestinians the vote. That would be the democratic option but it would mean the end of the Jewish state. Or they could try apartheid - have the minority Israelis rule the majority Palestinians, but apartheid regimes don't have a very long life.
 
I give those settlers and A for tactics but an F for strategy.

There is no way a sustainable one state solution can ever favor the Zionists, by making the two state solution impossible they are essentially dooming Israel.

From the article:

Demographers predict that within ten years Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Without a separate Palestinian state the Israelis would have three options, none of them good. They could try ethnic cleansing, drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or they could give the Palestinians the vote. That would be the democratic option but it would mean the end of the Jewish state. Or they could try apartheid - have the minority Israelis rule the majority Palestinians, but apartheid regimes don't have a very long life.

Exactly, the two state solution is the best option for Israel. IMO, it is a bargain for Israel to keep 78% of the land and have the Palestinians in 22%.

I think the settlements and the 5-10% percent of the west bank that some in Israel want to keep is a short-sighted policy as you implied.

Technically, the west bank is not an apartheid because it is an occupied land, but for all practical reasons the colonies increasingly make it look like one especially with the separation wall and the different laws applied to Palestinians and Israelis who live in the same area.
 
It is naive to speak of any 'solution' so long as the world allows Zionism to persist. So long as one square cm. of Middle Eastern soil is is of any real value, the Zionists will covet that land, and make plans to steal it, by blood and/or by false treaties. There are only two solutions to the problem--the Zionists kill or drive off every arab, muslim or christian, and seize 100% of what was Palestine [before looking even farther afield], or the world [including you, USA] jumps in, condemns ans outlaws racist Zionism, and compels Jews, Arabs, and Christians to live together in equality and justice in one state. Call it Palestine or call it Israel, who cares, but everybody, including all of the Palestinian exiles and their descendants get to live there, as full first-class citizens.

Of course, no Zionist will ever just roll over and let justice and human decency rule. And without the Wehrmacht of the USA, no other nations dare try to force them to act like human beings, so we will continue to watch the murder and dispossession of the indigenous Palestinian population in the exact same manner that the Plains Indians in the USA, and native cultures in Africa, Asia, Australia, etc., were murdered and displaced in the 16-19th centuries. The only hope the Palestinians have is that they too, [however few survive] , will be allowed to erect gambling casinos on the worthless desert land the Israelis allow them to keep.
 
Call it Palestine or call it Israel, who cares, but everybody, including all of the Palestinian exiles and their descendants get to live there, as full first-class citizens.

The problem with your outlook is that it runs roughshod over a fundamental human freedom, the right to free association. Zionism is simply an extension of this fundamental right - Jews wanting to live in a land of Jews.
 
The problem with your outlook is that it runs roughshod over a fundamental human freedom, the right to free association. Zionism is simply an extension of this fundamental right - Jews wanting to live in a land of Jews.

There's not a problem with that outlook.

The right to return is international law.

Israel states it's not a RIGHT for Palestinians in this case because there is no end to the conflict. Like that isn't one of them...

Right of return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
There's not a problem with that outlook.

The right to return is international law.

Israel states it's not a RIGHT for Palestinians in this case because there is no end to the conflict. Like that isn't one of them...

Right of return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A human right trumps law that is in conflict with the right. In other words, when a group gets together and wants to be an exclusive group, as is their right under free association laws, a law written by the UN which mandates the violation of that the right to free association is pretty much void.

Free society, immigration and multiculturalism are not compatible. Israel allowing Palestinians into the nation and giving them full democratic rights is the same as wiping Israel off the map, for the population of Palestinians exceeds that of Jews. The Jews have a right to freely associate in a nation of their own.

The Palestinians who are not Arab-Israelis brought this fate upon themselves. The very fact that Arab-Israelis exist demonstrates that people who didn't war against Israeli in the days of its founding were incorporated as citizens. Those that thought that they could do better than the UN partition fought against the Jews and they lost. With the freedom to choose one's course of action comes the responsibility of living with the consequences that result. Palestinians wanting to get a "do-over" are dreaming.
 
It is naive to speak of any 'solution' so long as the world allows Zionism to persist. So long as one square cm. of Middle Eastern soil is is of any real value, the Zionists will covet that land, and make plans to steal it, by blood and/or by false treaties. There are only two solutions to the problem--the Zionists kill or drive off every arab, muslim or christian, and seize 100% of what was Palestine [before looking even farther afield], or the world [including you, USA] jumps in, condemns ans outlaws racist Zionism, and compels Jews, Arabs, and Christians to live together in equality and justice in one state. Call it Palestine or call it Israel, who cares, but everybody, including all of the Palestinian exiles and their descendants get to live there, as full first-class citizens.

Of course, no Zionist will ever just roll over and let justice and human decency rule. And without the Wehrmacht of the USA, no other nations dare try to force them to act like human beings, so we will continue to watch the murder and dispossession of the indigenous Palestinian population in the exact same manner that the Plains Indians in the USA, and native cultures in Africa, Asia, Australia, etc., were murdered and displaced in the 16-19th centuries. The only hope the Palestinians have is that they too, [however few survive] , will be allowed to erect gambling casinos on the worthless desert land the Israelis allow them to keep.

Give them a break they're nothing like the colonizers of the past. They're barely as ruthless as what their neighbors have done to squash Palestinians.

But they're lucky. If they weren't fighting jews, nobody would care. The kurds have been trying to break away from Turkey for mcuh longer than this conflict, does anyone care? Nope. The got gassed by Saddam Hussein, does anyone take action? Nope. Syria's sunni population has been brutally put down in the past in order to preserve control of an alawite leader. Does anyone care? Nope. The list goes on....Sufficeth to say the Palestinians are lucky to be fighting who they are. If it wasn't for that, they would get bombed and nobody not in the immediate vicinity would care. Well, that's kind of mean, they might care. But there sure as hell wouldn't be 24-hour live coverage on most news channels.
 
Give them a break they're nothing like the colonizers of the past. They're barely as ruthless as what their neighbors have done to squash Palestinians.

But they're lucky. If they weren't fighting jews, nobody would care. The kurds have been trying to break away from Turkey for mcuh longer than this conflict, does anyone care? Nope. The got gassed by Saddam Hussein, does anyone take action? Nope. Syria's sunni population has been brutally put down in the past in order to preserve control of an alawite leader. Does anyone care? Nope. The list goes on....Sufficeth to say the Palestinians are lucky to be fighting who they are. If it wasn't for that, they would get bombed and nobody not in the immediate vicinity would care. Well, that's kind of mean, they might care. But there sure as hell wouldn't be 24-hour live coverage on most news channels.

All absolutely true, and utterly irrelevent. There is more than enough inhamanity to man going on on this planet at any given moment to make any good creator god kick himself up and down the block. But 2 wrongs don't make a right, and human propensity for evil doesn't excuse Israel. And the main reason their evil gets so much ink is because they and their US allies are forever putting on this "holier than thou", "we're the ones being attacked by 'evil forces'" b-llsh-t. Hypocrisy has a a way of drawing attention to itself.
 
Yes, peace is out of reach as long as there are significant numbers of people in the media, like Bob Simon, who are unable or unwilling to recognize the intractability of the Palestinians as a stumbling block to any attempted negotiation.
 
An update on the Bob Simon CBS video segment:

J Street ( the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement in the US) reported that:

"Since the airing of the segment, 60 Minutes' Bob Simon has been under attack for supposed "anti-Israel bias." CAMERA (the Orwellian-named Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) alerted their activist network - flooding the 60 Minutes' offices and their advertisers with angry phone calls charging media bias. Jewish community leader Abe Foxman fired off a letter calling the piece a "hatchet job on Israel." J Street members are writing letters of support to Bob Simon"

J Street : 60 Minutes under attack

Another example of what Journalists and others face when they raise questions about what Israel does - they'll often get attacked as anti-Israel. It's one way the forces of the status quo constrain debate and discussion on Israeli policies regarding the settlements and the Palestinians.
 
Another example of what Journalists and others face when they raise questions about what Israel does - they'll often get attacked as anti-Israel. It's one way the forces of the status quo constrain debate and discussion on Israeli policies regarding the settlements and the Palestinians.

I saw that report and in no way would I describe it as raising questions or advancing a discussion. The piece was a classic case of advocacy journalism. Now, there's nothing wrong with showing the Palestinian side of the issue. However, when you show only one side of a situation you're engaged in advocacy journalism, not objective journalism. You show outrages, but you don't put them into context, so the viewer is being manipulated into reacting only to the outrage that is framed on the TV screen. This report did that very well.

The report could have been put together with an objective framing and still conveyed every single piece of information included in this report. What is the goal of the piece, to inform or to outrage? I think the goal was to outrage and they parsed the presentation of facts to achieve that goal. I'm not disputing even one point of information in their reporting, that is, I'm not charging that they're lying by commission. Rather, I'm charging that they're lying by omission. Information that is not presented cannot be weighed. Omitting information distorts the conclusions that viewers reach.

Take the family on the hilltop. They spent minutes on that segment. They showed the imprisoned residents, they showed the children locked out of their home. Where was the corresponding segment with the region's military commander explaining, in detail, why that hilltop observation point is commandeered at irregular instances? Do we know whether that family has allowed the use of their residence to terrorists who deploy spotters or snipers at that location? We don't know. Do we know whether the accounts of the family, about soldiers sleeping there are true? No, we don't know. Do we know whether the soldiers presence is just a nasty part of war, and that this family is just living in the wrong place but that military necessity requires the Army to maintain the high ground during a military operation in the region? We don't know. All we saw was the plight of this family. CBS made no effort to get Army officers to put the occupation of that house into context. CBS put it into context for its viewers, the context being that the family is being bullied and terrorized for no apparent reason. That's advocacy, not objective reporting. Further, there is no outright lying taking place by Bob Simon, in that every fact he reported is probably true. He simply lied by omitting contextual information.

Israel has already engaged in ethnic cleansing its own citizens. Again, the report distorts the situation by lying by omission. At the 10:51 mark of the report, Simon makes a big deal about the eviction of 9 families from a settlement. True report. What he doesn't share with his viewers is the results of the Gush Katif ethnic cleansing:
Gush Katif (Hebrew: גוש קטיף‎, English: "Harvest Bloc") was a bloc of 17 Israeli settlements in the southern Gaza strip. In August 2005, the 8,000 residents of Gush Katif were forcefully evicted from the area and their homes demolished as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan.

Simon leaves the viewer with the impression that those crazy Jews are going to go into rebellion when only 9 families are being moved, so how are they going to forcefully relocate thousands. Damn, it'll never work. What's unreported is that it did work. Lying by omission.

CBS is getting very deserved criticism. They've become just another one of the countless media outlets that serve as a propaganda arm for the Palestinians.
 
An update on the Bob Simon CBS video segment:

J Street ( the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement in the US) reported that:

"Since the airing of the segment, 60 Minutes' Bob Simon has been under attack for supposed "anti-Israel bias." CAMERA (the Orwellian-named Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) alerted their activist network - flooding the 60 Minutes' offices and their advertisers with angry phone calls charging media bias. Jewish community leader Abe Foxman fired off a letter calling the piece a "hatchet job on Israel." J Street members are writing letters of support to Bob Simon"

J Street : 60 Minutes under attack

Another example of what Journalists and others face when they raise questions about what Israel does - they'll often get attacked as anti-Israel. It's one way the forces of the status quo constrain debate and discussion on Israeli policies regarding the settlements and the Palestinians.

It was not a well-balanced piece and the critics of the piece have good reasons for doing so.
 
I saw that report and in no way would I describe it as raising questions or advancing a discussion. The piece was a classic case of advocacy journalism. Now, there's nothing wrong with showing the Palestinian side of the issue. However, when you show only one side of a situation you're engaged in advocacy journalism, not objective journalism. You show outrages, but you don't put them into context, so the viewer is being manipulated into reacting only to the outrage that is framed on the TV screen. This report did that very well.

Sometimes, the facts being reported are so outrageous that they would appear so no matter what the reporter does. Bob Simon is a veteran journalist, a Jew, resides in a Tel-Aviv suburb and is not a Palestinian side advocate judging by his many pieces on the Isr/Pali conflict. CBS is not in the Palestinian side advocacy business. The reality of the situation surrounding the settlements dictated the way the story was presented not Bob Simon "selective" journalism. The settlements and its supporting infrastructure that the piece briefly touched on is where the “outrage” is rooted not the reporting of it. I would be curious to know, how does an objective reporting of the settlements and its supporting infrastructure look like?

Take the family on the hilltop. They spent minutes on that segment. They showed the imprisoned residents, they showed the children locked out of their home. Where was the corresponding segment with the region's military commander explaining, in detail, why that hilltop observation point is commandeered at irregular instances? Do we know whether that family has allowed the use of their residence to terrorists who deploy spotters or snipers at that location? We don't know. Do we know whether the accounts of the family, about soldiers sleeping there are true? No, we don't know. Do we know whether the soldiers presence is just a nasty part of war, and that this family is just living in the wrong place but that military necessity requires the Army to maintain the high ground during a military operation in the region? We don't know. All we saw was the plight of this family. CBS made no effort to get Army officers to put the occupation of that house into context. CBS put it into context for its viewers, the context being that the family is being bullied and terrorized for no apparent reason.
Bob Simon quoted "an army spokesperson told us the army uses the Nassif's house for important surveillance operations". We do not know why the army spokesperson did not appear in person to say that? Do we? Could it be that it is extremely hard to justify using a civilian house for military surveillance purposes? Imagine what would this army spokesperson answers to potential Bob Simon questions;

Why does not the IDF establish a permanent base for the purposes of surveillance operations outside the Nassif’s family house instead of inside it?

Why the IDF does not use advance technology for this “surveillance operation” instead of few soldiers on a roof top of a private house?

Why is it that the IDF always arrive in the middle of the night and force themselves on the family?

Why is it that the IDF does not respect the privacy of Palestinians when the same task can be done using other methods?

Is this how the IDF surveillance operations are carried out in the West Bank?

You see, sometimes it is preferable to just issue a statement and not face live questioning by a reporter especially a veteran reporter like Bob simon. My guess is, that is why we did not see an IDF spokesperson live on camera.

The soldiers who were inside the house refused to speak to the reporter when they were given an opportunity over the span of two days. They even refused to allow the family to open the door for their kids to aviod appearing on camera.

Had the family been involved in “terrorism”, they would be in prison. We do know that the account of the family that soldiers were sleeping in the house is true. The making of those few minutes of reporting took at least 2 days, the soldiers were there the first day and they were there the second day.

Furthermore, it was clear that the family was terrified and requested that Bob Simon team leave their properity. That is not an indication of lying but of fearing the consequences of being involved in the reporting of the story.


Israel has already engaged in ethnic cleansing its own citizens.

Describing the removal of an illegal settlement as “Ethnic cleansing” is a bit strong, do not you think? Curious, what would the removal of Palestinians from their land be called then?

Again, the report distorts the situation by lying by omission. At the 10:51 mark of the report, Simon makes a big deal about the eviction of 9 families from a settlement. True report. What he doesn't share with his viewers is the results of the Gush Katif ethnic cleansing:

Simon leaves the viewer with the impression that those crazy Jews are going to go into rebellion when only 9 families are being moved, so how are they going to forcefully relocate thousands. Damn, it'll never work. What's unreported is that it did work. Lying by omission.

The extreme settlers indicated that they will resist attempts to remove them. That was recently demonstrated in Hebron which was not presented in the segment. It is a fact that extreme settlers are willing to use violence to resist their removal. It is not a Bob Simon invention. One can cite many accounts of such behavior. FM Livni was interviewed and she expressed the official views of the government. she stated that removing settlers by force if need be will be done. There was no omission here, just a presentation of the two sides of what a potential removing of settlers would look like. That exactly explains why the forces of the status quo are outraged. The viewers are often shown the official Israeli line that speaks of the rule of law but almost always not shown the other side, the harsh truth that elements of the settlers are extremists and would not hesitate to use violence at their own to stay in the Land that “GOD” has given them.

CBS is getting very deserved criticism. They've become just another one of the countless media outlets that serve as a propaganda arm for the Palestinians.
One segment that showed the ugly truth that surrounds the settlements and the continual colonization of Palestinian land by Jewish extremists is not a valid reason to accuse CBS of being a “propaganda arm for the Palestinians”. It is honest reporting that has been absent from the media for decades. No wonder that the “Fair and Balanced” crowd and the AIPAC friends would object to it. It shows the public that there are two sides to any story. Damn, it “may” even convince some viewers that the Palestinians could be right sometimes even they could be victims. That in view of the critics of this piece is totally unacceptable; viewers “should” not think for themselves, they “must” only endorse what they are being told by the Israeli side.
 
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