Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich People?

[What if...?]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

They didn't become lazy. The top 20% just began doing business on a global scale.

That usually increases earnings.

Thats what I meant by the game changing.

Capital is far more portable than labor. Now more than ever.

We made up this game when the world was a much smaller place.

Where there were far fewer unproductive ways to acquire wealth.

But we apply the same rules even though the dynamic has changed so drastically.

Wealthy folks either spent their money or invested it in new ventures.

Now its a lot of gambling with other peoples money at games you made up that even you don't understand.

And if you blow it you'll probably still get your bonus.

Win win.

 

[Maenad]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

CHART: Average Income Since 1917 - Business Insider

Conservatives don't want to go back to that time period. So why don't we ask the working class if they want to see their incomes rise faster than that of the rich, again?

BTW can anyone tell us what the corporate and income tax rates were back then?

No, I don't remember that. And I'm 65 years old.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Does the income in your chart include tax credits, welfare, disability, unemployment, etc....or just paychecks?

Paychecks. Wouldn't you agree that paychecks are the most legitimate portion of capitalism? I mean, really, how many people do you want to see on disability, welfare, unemployment, etc., versus getting an honest paycheck?

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

you recognize the correlation to nominal tax rates
but there is another factor that overlaps that same period of growth of wages for the underclass: it was the golden age of unionism

UNIONS!!!! AAAAGH you'll awaken the angry Conservative mob with that word. Get out the garlic cloves.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

I remember those good old times.


That was when more poor folks worked for a living. They didn't assume things like HDTV's, Cadillac Escalades, or expensive computers were a freakin' RIGHT. Back in the good 'ole days, people EARNED the things they had. They took care of themselves. They didn't live in this all-consuming wealth envy attitude. There were far less career welfare recipients. Far less welfare brood mares. They didn't beg the government for unnecessary entitlements just because they wanted to keep up with the rich, without earning any of it.

Envy didn't exist back then because the system kept the rich in check.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Apparently, sometime in the mid seventies the top 20% became massively more productive and the rest of the country became lazy.

All of a sudden.

Yup, Velvet Elvis has a point there. The top 20% did all the time in the cubicles writing all the code, got all the black lung in coal mines while hauling out all the coal, while everyone else went home to collect welfare checks.

All those lazy people are why we stopped importing cheese from the moon, too. :lamo

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

It is as logical as assuming the 80% suddenly became more productive without the capital investments of the top 20%. In the end, the big difference between the top and the rest is investment income which is not directly the result of productivity of the individual companies as its relation to the whole of the economy. You will note that when the income of the top few percent plummets, the average income of the bottom feeders do not. Why is that?

Bottom feeders. Wow, it's like you never learned the lesson of Zomney's "47%".

Keep up that nonsense. Dig yourself a hole right into ideological extinction.

 

[JC Callender]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Maybe people aren't earning more because they're being supported by the government. Would you agree that getting government assistance is easier than earning a paycheck?

Paychecks. Wouldn't you agree that paychecks are the most legitimate portion of capitalism? I mean, really, how many people do you want to see on disability, welfare, unemployment, etc., versus getting an honest paycheck?

 

[Fisher]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Bottom feeders. Wow, it's like you never learned the lesson of Zomney's "47%".

Keep up that nonsense. Dig yourself a hole right into ideological extinction.

Your lack of a response to the question posed indicates that you acknowledge the correctness of the assertion--workers are not the reason the rich are getting richer--the stock market is. Kind of hard to keep using that income gap chart now isn't it?

 

[ReformCollege]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Thats what I meant by the game changing.

Capital is far more portable than labor. Now more than ever.

We made up this game when the world was a much smaller place.

Where there were far fewer unproductive ways to acquire wealth.

But we apply the same rules even though the dynamic has changed so drastically.

Wealthy folks either spent their money or invested it in new ventures.

Now its a lot of gambling with other peoples money at games you made up that even you don't understand.

And if you blow it you'll probably still get your bonus.

Win win.

I do agree that losers don't deserve bonuses.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Your lack of a response to the question posed indicates that you acknowledge the correctness of the assertion--workers are not the reason the rich are getting richer--the stock market is. Kind of hard to keep using that income gap chart now isn't it?

Corporate profits are at an all-time high. That's not because of stocks, it's because of workers. Underpaid workers, from American non-unionized labor all the way to Gina Rinehart's $2 a day miners in Africa.

Oh and by the way, if I ignore your question, it's because it's a stupid question. It is never any other reason but that. Ever.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Maybe people aren't earning more because they're being supported by the government. Would you agree that getting government assistance is easier than earning a paycheck?

The only way that will ever be true is if there are more jobseekers than there are jobs. Oh wait, that's true right now.

 

[Fisher]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Corporate profits are at an all-time high. That's not because of stocks, it's because of workers. Underpaid workers, from American non-unionized labor all the way to Gina Rinehart's $2 a day miners in Africa.

Oh and by the way, if I ignore your question, it's because it's a stupid question. It is never any other reason but that. Ever.

No it is because of stocks. You have avoided once again explaining how the top income earners income falls so sharply when the bottom income earners do not if it is all about the workers making their chia pets.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Thats what I meant by the game changing.

Capital is far more portable than labor. Now more than ever.

We made up this game when the world was a much smaller place.

Where there were far fewer unproductive ways to acquire wealth.

But we apply the same rules even though the dynamic has changed so drastically.

Wealthy folks either spent their money or invested it in new ventures.

Now its a lot of gambling with other peoples money at games you made up that even you don't understand.

And if you blow it you'll probably still get your bonus.

Win win.

Oh it gets worse. America is being told to accept the bull**** claim that CEOs are entitled to make millions, and that's not excessive, but if workers demand higher pay, that's crazy talk. We're being told to believe that Wal Mart, which has income greater than the GDP of over 150 countries, cannot afford to pay higher wages or health care benefits. This is why Conservatives are so unpopular. This is why an armed revolution is coming. And it will NOT end in the Hunger Games. It'll end like the Bolshevik revolution did - with a lot of rich people dying.

Skyrocketing CEO pay and corporate profits with plummeting worker pay is unsustainable. It will end in collapse. Conservatives know this, which is why they do not want to discuss the inevitability of it. That means we need to rethink the system and they can't stomach that. Even the piss poor Conservatives who are a paycheck away from doom - and there's a lot of those out there.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

No it is because of stocks.

No, it is not because of stocks, period. Record breaking corporate profits are because of profits, not stocks, and you will not show otherwise. The income of the top income earners are not falling, which pretty much negates your premise.

 

[Fisher]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

No, it is not because of stocks, period. Record breaking corporate profits are because of profits, not stocks, and you will not show otherwise. The income of the top income earners are not falling, which pretty much negates your premise.

My premise is that income in 2008-2009 for the top bracket plummeted when it did not for the bottom. You are being willfully evasive of the reality that "profits" are not the cats meow. Google stock fell by billions based on an earnings report released a few hours early; Walmart stock just dropped dramatically based on an internal memo about sales. These affect the income of the top 1% and not the guy pushing the buggies across the parking lot ergo the guy pushing the buggy across the parking lot is not the reason the stock was trading higher the day before.

 

[Zalatix]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

My premise is that income in 2008-2009 for the top bracket plummeted when it did not for the bottom.

Then you are laughably wrong because incomes dropped in the toilet for the bottom. Mass unemployment at a rate of 700,000 jobs a month tend to do that. 50% of working class wealth was wiped out by that recession.

You are being willfully evasive of the reality that "profits" are not the cats meow.

Your argument is willfully fraudulent. Saying that incomes didn't plummet for the bottom, aka the working class? Really, what alternative dimension did you get that reality from?

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

So its your opinion that 80% of the population became lazy over a period of a couple of years and a couple percent became massively more productive in the same period.

Who said "a couple of years?" This is generations in the making. Each generation is taught by the previous one. Laziness breeds laziness. Productivity breeds productivity.

You are.aware the the "evil rich" have made themselves a problem repeatedly throughout history, right?

Oh, so the poor, poor pitiful poor are completely devoid of blame in the system?

Some people are greedy and amorally self serving. Our system facilitates and rewards this behavior.

Absolutely. This is why we have career welfare recipients. See...the shoe does fit on the other foot.

Capitalism is a made up thing.

Too ignorant to respond to

 

[What if...?]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Who said "a couple of years?" This is generations in the making. Each generation is taught by the previous one. Laziness breeds laziness. Productivity breeds productivity.


Oh, so the poor, poor pitiful poor are completely devoid of blame in the system?


Absolutely. This is why we have career welfare recipients. See...the shoe does fit on the other foot.


Too ignorant to respond to

Bound up in our worldview much?

I'll skip the early nonsense and get to the meat.

Please provide evidence for naturally occuring capitalism.

Fossil records, DNA, evidence of capitalism in animal populations, pretty much anything that proves capitalism ISN'T a human construct.

A made up thing.

 

[Fisher]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

Then you are laughably wrong because incomes dropped in the toilet for the bottom. Mass unemployment at a rate of 700,000 jobs a month tend to do that. 50% of working class wealth was wiped out by that recession.


Your argument is willfully fraudulent. Saying that incomes didn't plummet for the bottom, aka the working class? Really, what alternative dimension did you get that reality from?

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If you go back to your income inequality chart and compare it to the S&P 500 you will see that the income of the top mirrors the S&P performance over the same time frame because the wealthiest get most of their money from capital income whereas the bottom gets their money from labor income. The reason the gap is widening has zero to do with anything you are yammering on about. The gap is widening because interest rates have steadily declined since 1980. If interest rates were to go up, the gap would narrow. Interest rates affect capital income, not labor income. You also are disingenuous because the percentage of total wealth in the US between the top 1%, 19% below them, and the remaining 80% has been stable over time in relation to each other. Likewise, capital gains have yielded consistent returns over time so as stock prices climb, so do dividends in dollars (i.e a 5% return on $100 stock is still a 5% return on a $500 stock but in dollars it is more and the gap widens).

 

[JC Callender]

Re: Bloomberg: Remember When Poor People Saw Their Incomes Grow Faster Than Rich Peop

How do you know there are more jobseekers than jobs? Are you telling me that you couldn't get a job at McDonald's or a temp agency if you had to? Maybe you mean that there aren't enough jobs that people want to take. And why is that?

Many people would rather collect $320 a week in unemployment than go out and work for $400, as staying home saves money on gas, uniforms, etc.... and look at all of the freedom you have from not having to work a full time job! People also collect unemployment and work under the table and make more than they would normally earn from a regular job.

There are also tax credits, like the Earned Income Tax Credit, which awards people with low earned income. The more you make, the less you'll get back on taxes, and I've seen people get back thousands. There are other tax credits that favor the lower earners as well.

There's also all of the other government assistance programs like welfare that may be meant to give the poor a helping hand but are often an incentive to not have to work. Here are many more government programs (that don't include the state run programs), and if you can't make it in America with all of this, I don't know what else to tell you: Government Benefits, Grants, and Financial Aid for Citizens | USA.gov

Also, the top 1% did very well in 2007 according to your chart when unemployment was low and then they took the biggest nosedive of all of the categories when unemployment went up. It's in their favor to have low unemployment. Is it in the governments?

The only way that will ever be true is if there are more jobseekers than there are jobs. Oh wait, that's true right now.