Big, Beautiful Disaster for Space Science

[phoenix2020]

So I've been digging deeper into the "Big Beautiful Bill" and its details, and holy cow there is some absolutely bone-headed stuff in there.

One involves LIGO. Any space nerds here know all about gravitational waves, the new form of astronomy it enables, and some of the amazing discoveries it allows. So, here's the thing. There are two LIGO observatories. Why two? Because by having two (each of which is in the form of a L on a plane) you can triangulate the point in space where a gravitational event originates. It's the whole point. And it's working - after decades of development and billions of dollars invested, the two observatories are up and running. So, what does the Trump Admin propose in their Bad Butch Bill?

That's right, to save some $20 million in operating costs, they are deleting one of the observatories -- not even specifying which one. Just pick one and shut it down. That appears to be the entirety of thought that went into it. "We have two, so maybe we can just have one, so let's just close the other one, it's a spare."

The whole point of gravitational astronomy is to be able to locate in space the origin of a gravitational event and since gravitational waves are unimpeded by any known physics, it's the first signal we get that something just happened - giving us seconds to minutes to quickly point the global array of observational telescopes to that point in the sky to see what's about to happen in electromagnetic wavelengths. And across the planet we've built out the infrastructure, the process, the command and coordination to actually do this - within moments of LIGO detecting something, the world's great observatories are cancelling whatever they were working on and immediately focusing on the emergent event. With one observatory the only thing you get is "something might have happened somewhere."

It's a stunning example of lack of thought that went into the details of this bill. Stunning. It's unclear they're even interested in finding somebody else to take it over, and if that's the case, then the Trump admin not only has more or less unilaterally killed gravitational astronomy as a discipline, but they're walled off the USA science community from any serious participation in future efforts. This is the sort of thing that will drive the rest of the west straight into partnerships with China, leaving us out.

 

[Loulit01]

Anti-intellectualism run rampant.

 

[Isidore]

Isn't there one in Europe and one in Japan also? So there are three instead of four. It is idiotic to shut such a tremendous achievement in technology down to save a relatively minuscule amount of money, but having only one in the U.S. isn't useless as long as other countries are operating their own and they coordinate with each other.

I thought I recall they were building/planning one in India – although I'm not certain I'm remembering that correctly.

Hopefully someone can get one of the billionaire space cadets to pony up some cash to keep them all running.

 

[phoenix2020]

Isn't there one in Europe and one in Japan also? So there are three instead of four. It is idiotic to shut such a tremendous achievement in technology down to save a relatively minuscule amount of money, but having only one in the U.S. isn't useless as long as other countries are operating their own and they coordinate with each other.

I thought I recall they were building/planning one in India – although I'm not certain I'm remembering that correctly.

Hopefully someone can get one of the billionaire space cadets to pony up some cash to keep them all running.

The two in the US have the longest 4km arms - the Italy and Japan sites have markedly shorter arms and thus markedly reduced sensitivity -- which means something when it comes to detecting such a weak signal. Losing one of the two NSF facilities will significantly reduce the number of events detected, degrade the ability to triangulate, and eliminate altogether the ability to triangulate for many of the weaker events, all to save about $19M so that Kristi can get a new private luxury jet.

The India one is still in planning.

I'd love for a Bezos or Musk to foot the tab on LIGO. They at least would understand the value. Good idea, let's hope...

 

[Integrityrespec]

So I've been digging deeper into the "Big Beautiful Bill" and its details, and holy cow there is some absolutely bone-headed stuff in there.

One involves LIGO. Any space nerds here know all about gravitational waves, the new form of astronomy it enables, and some of the amazing discoveries it allows. So, here's the thing. There are two LIGO observatories. Why two? Because by having two (each of which is in the form of a L on a plane) you can triangulate the point in space where a gravitational event originates. It's the whole point. And it's working - after decades of development and billions of dollars invested, the two observatories are up and running. So, what does the Trump Admin propose in their Bad Butch Bill?

That's right, to save some $20 million in operating costs, they are deleting one of the observatories -- not even specifying which one. Just pick one and shut it down. That appears to be the entirety of thought that went into it. "We have two, so maybe we can just have one, so let's just close the other one, it's a spare."

The whole point of gravitational astronomy is to be able to locate in space the origin of a gravitational event and since gravitational waves are unimpeded by any known physics, it's the first signal we get that something just happened - giving us seconds to minutes to quickly point the global array of observational telescopes to that point in the sky to see what's about to happen in electromagnetic wavelengths. And across the planet we've built out the infrastructure, the process, the command and coordination to actually do this - within moments of LIGO detecting something, the world's great observatories are cancelling whatever they were working on and immediately focusing on the emergent event. With one observatory the only thing you get is "something might have happened somewhere."

It's a stunning example of lack of thought that went into the details of this bill. Stunning. It's unclear they're even interested in finding somebody else to take it over, and if that's the case, then the Trump admin not only has more or less unilaterally killed gravitational astronomy as a discipline, but they're walled off the USA science community from any serious participation in future efforts. This is the sort of thing that will drive the rest of the west straight into partnerships with China, leaving us out.

And what's it good for? What are we doing with it? The result of all this research and spending has shown us what that has benefited average Joe.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Isn't there one in Europe and one in Japan also? So there are three instead of four. It is idiotic to shut such a tremendous achievement in technology down to save a relatively minuscule amount of money, but having only one in the U.S. isn't useless as long as other countries are operating their own and they coordinate with each other.

I thought I recall they were building/planning one in India – although I'm not certain I'm remembering that correctly.

Hopefully someone can get one of the billionaire space cadets to pony up some cash to keep them all running.

OLOL. That's the thing, it doesn't seem the liberals want to cut anything.

 

[phoenix2020]

And what's it good for? What are we doing with it? The result of all this research and spending has shown us what that has benefited average Joe.

It's above your pay grade and well beyond your comprehension ability.

Please focus on simple things like Hunter's genitals or whatever other topic helps you feel better about owning the left or whatever else it is that turns you on.

 

[Helix]

When I was a boy, we got by just fine without no interstellar gravitational whojifudges. Shut 'em both down!

 

[dmpi]

Isn't it more of a proof of concept/operation, validating Eisenstein's theory of gravity waves? Been there, done that... now what? We need a compelling path forward. I suspect there is none.

 

[Gordy327]

Anti-intellectualism run rampant.

Not to mention hostility towards science & education. We are dumbing down at a seemingly accelerating rate.

 

[Loulit01]

Not to mention hostility towards science & education. We are dumbing down at a seemingly accelerating rate.

Thanks to MAGA, ignorance is the new black.

 

[BitterPill]

Not to mention hostility towards science & education. We are dumbing down at a seemingly accelerating rate.

Kendall Jenner is the one for me:



MAGA.

 

[Gordy327]

Kendall Jenner is the one for me:



MAGA.

I prefer Khloe.

 

[phoenix2020]

Kendall Jenner is the one for me:



MAGA.

Uh…. Wow.

 

[Exquisitor]

So I've been digging deeper into the "Big Beautiful Bill" and its details, and holy cow there is some absolutely bone-headed stuff in there.

One involves LIGO. Any space nerds here know all about gravitational waves, the new form of astronomy it enables, and some of the amazing discoveries it allows. So, here's the thing. There are two LIGO observatories. Why two? Because by having two (each of which is in the form of a L on a plane) you can triangulate the point in space where a gravitational event originates. It's the whole point. And it's working - after decades of development and billions of dollars invested, the two observatories are up and running. So, what does the Trump Admin propose in their Bad Butch Bill?

That's right, to save some $20 million in operating costs, they are deleting one of the observatories -- not even specifying which one. Just pick one and shut it down. That appears to be the entirety of thought that went into it. "We have two, so maybe we can just have one, so let's just close the other one, it's a spare."

The whole point of gravitational astronomy is to be able to locate in space the origin of a gravitational event and since gravitational waves are unimpeded by any known physics, it's the first signal we get that something just happened - giving us seconds to minutes to quickly point the global array of observational telescopes to that point in the sky to see what's about to happen in electromagnetic wavelengths. And across the planet we've built out the infrastructure, the process, the command and coordination to actually do this - within moments of LIGO detecting something, the world's great observatories are cancelling whatever they were working on and immediately focusing on the emergent event. With one observatory the only thing you get is "something might have happened somewhere."

It's a stunning example of lack of thought that went into the details of this bill. Stunning. It's unclear they're even interested in finding somebody else to take it over, and if that's the case, then the Trump admin not only has more or less unilaterally killed gravitational astronomy as a discipline, but they're walled off the USA science community from any serious participation in future efforts. This is the sort of thing that will drive the rest of the west straight into partnerships with China, leaving us out.

Hey, they can feel like me.

Good going Trump.

 

[Isidore]

The two in the US have the longest 4km arms - the Italy and Japan sites have markedly shorter arms and thus markedly reduced sensitivity -- which means something when it comes to detecting such a weak signal. Losing one of the two NSF facilities will significantly reduce the number of events detected, degrade the ability to triangulate, and eliminate altogether the ability to triangulate for many of the weaker events, all to save about $19M so that Kristi can get a new private luxury jet.

I forgot the ones in Italy and Japan were smaller.

I think it requires three stations to fix a location, doesn't it? Wouldn't the time difference between two stations give a infinite plane on which an origin point would reside? And then the time differential from another pair of stations could be used to derive another infinite plane to intersect the first? And then again for the last pair of stations?

I'm just astonished they made something that can detect changes in length thousands of times smaller than the nucleus of an atom. I'd fund any project that can do that in perpetuity – who knows what technological advances they'll come up with?

 

[phoenix2020]

I forgot the ones in Italy and Japan were smaller.

I think it requires three stations to fix a location, doesn't it? Wouldn't the time difference between two stations give an infinite plane on which an origin point would reside? And then the time differential from another pair of stations could be used to derive another infinite plane to intersect the first?

OK, I was partly wrong (and acknowledge that to my original posts). The observatory’s L shape does mean that it is more sensitive to waves from one direction than others, aka antenna pattern, so it’s most sensitive to waves coming from a direction perpendicular to the plane defined by the L, and is nearly blind to waves coming from the directions that bisect the arms at 45 degree angles. So I suppose this provides something of a probabilistic map of where the the wave might have come from with a single detector, one that would be much, much more highly constrained with two. However, you are correct even two detectors doesn’t narrow the probabilistic uncertainty sufficiently to locate the origin to a single spot, and therefore the third is necessary.

As a result, my claim of outright loss of localization is false, however the more limited claim of loss of localization for weaker events is true. Thanks for getting me to think harder about this, which is always a good thing.

I'm just astonished they made something that can detect changes in length thousands of times smaller than the nucleus of an atom. I'd fund any project that can do that in perpetuity – who knows what technological advances they'll come up with?

It is indeed amazing. The real party trick is that there are mirrors at both ends, forcing the light to bounce back and forth 300 times in each leg before arrival time measurement. Imagine the precision needed to position those mirrors! Amazing. This is what I regret most - this sort of stuff is what drew the world’s best and brightest to America, and now they’ll be going elsewhere.

 

[Individual]

So I've been digging deeper into the "Big Beautiful Bill" and its details, and holy cow there is some absolutely bone-headed stuff in there.

One involves LIGO. Any space nerds here know all about gravitational waves, the new form of astronomy it enables, and some of the amazing discoveries it allows. So, here's the thing. There are two LIGO observatories. Why two? Because by having two (each of which is in the form of a L on a plane) you can triangulate the point in space where a gravitational event originates. It's the whole point. And it's working - after decades of development and billions of dollars invested, the two observatories are up and running. So, what does the Trump Admin propose in their Bad Butch Bill?

That's right, to save some $20 million in operating costs, they are deleting one of the observatories -- not even specifying which one. Just pick one and shut it down. That appears to be the entirety of thought that went into it. "We have two, so maybe we can just have one, so let's just close the other one, it's a spare."

The whole point of gravitational astronomy is to be able to locate in space the origin of a gravitational event and since gravitational waves are unimpeded by any known physics, it's the first signal we get that something just happened - giving us seconds to minutes to quickly point the global array of observational telescopes to that point in the sky to see what's about to happen in electromagnetic wavelengths. And across the planet we've built out the infrastructure, the process, the command and coordination to actually do this - within moments of LIGO detecting something, the world's great observatories are cancelling whatever they were working on and immediately focusing on the emergent event. With one observatory the only thing you get is "something might have happened somewhere."

It's a stunning example of lack of thought that went into the details of this bill. Stunning. It's unclear they're even interested in finding somebody else to take it over, and if that's the case, then the Trump admin not only has more or less unilaterally killed gravitational astronomy as a discipline, but they're walled off the USA science community from any serious participation in future efforts. This is the sort of thing that will drive the rest of the west straight into partnerships with China, leaving us out.

Maybe it would help to show what knowledge has been gained and put to use profitably by this technology to date.

 

[lynnwinslow]

Maybe it would help to show what knowledge has been gained and put to use profitably by this technology to date.

Simple google search. You're welcome. https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/science-impact

High-performance optics and optical metrology	Photo-thermal interferometer
Optical components	Adaptive laser beam shaping High power modulator
Lasers	Pound-Drever-Hall locking Diode pumped laser Slab laser
Ultrahigh vacuum components and techniques	Vacuum cable clamp
Sensor technology	Interferometric displacement sensor
Materials engineering	Oxide bonding techniques
Computation and time-series data analysis	Fast chirp transform
Computation and data analysis	Blind data search method
Distributed computing	Distributed identity management

 

[Individual]

Simple google search. You're welcome. https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/science-impact

High-performance optics and optical metrology	Photo-thermal interferometer
Optical components	Adaptive laser beam shaping High power modulator
Lasers	Pound-Drever-Hall locking Diode pumped laser Slab laser
Ultrahigh vacuum components and techniques	Vacuum cable clamp
Sensor technology	Interferometric displacement sensor
Materials engineering	Oxide bonding techniques
Computation and time-series data analysis	Fast chirp transform
Computation and data analysis	Blind data search method
Distributed computing	Distributed identity management

Don't tell me, tell the thread creator.
So why not put a portion of the profits resulting from gains to funding the growth of the technology?

 

[lynnwinslow]

Don't tell me, tell the thread creator.

You're the one who asked.

So why not put a portion of the profits resulting from gains to funding the growth of the technology?

It's a thread on a message board, not an MBA thesis. Look it up yourself if you're curious. Share your results with the group. Or not.

 

[Individual]

You're the one who asked.

It's a thread on a message board, not an MBA thesis. Look it up yourself if you're curious. Share your results with the group. Or not.

Yes, in a question directed at the thread creator.

Not that curious when I have other things more pressing to do. My primary interest was in the spending issue.

 

[lynnwinslow]

Yes, in a question directed at the thread creator.

Not that curious when I have other things more pressing to do. My primary interest was in the spending issue.

Your primary interest in this thread seems to be trolling.

 

[Individual]

Your primary interest in this thread seems to be trolling.

Only if you equate Federal spending to trolling.
I support increasing taxation to cover the Federal budget and if not reduce spending to a point where voters begin demanding their representatives begin spending on things a majority of voters are willing to be taxed enough to pay for.

 

[lynnwinslow]

Only if you equate Federal spending to trolling.
I support increasing taxation to cover the Federal budget and if not reduce spending to a point where voters begin demanding their representatives begin spending on things a majority of voters are willing to be taxed enough to pay for.

I thought you had more pressing things to do.