Biden Supported Amendment to End Mandatory Busing

[joko104]

How did the bussed people like it?

Everything I read says it was intensely hated, even by most black kids and people.

Think of you as a parent or student. You are black. You are going to school your neighborhood a few blocks away. When young one of your parents drove you there. When older, you could walk. All your friends were at your school.

Then you are told some white judges ordered that you have to get up 1 hour earlier to be bused to a school mostly with white kids - white kids you don't know and white kids who have a lot more money for clothes, cool cars and the rest - while you have 2nd hand clothes because your father is a janitor and your mother a part time maid. Then you get in line to wait for your long bus ride home - with your house maybe the last one to drop off being so far away. Would you like that? Be "I'm so happy I'm in classes with more white kids!" Of course not. You'd want to stay in your neighborhood school with your friends.

And as a black parent, rather than driving your child 3 blocks to and from school, you needed an 2 hours every day to drive across the city to your assigned white school for your black children.

 

[Lovebug]

Everything I read says it was intensely hated, even by most black kids and people.

Think of you as a parent or student. You are black. You are going to school your neighborhood a few blocks away. When young one of your parents drove you there. When older, you could walk. All your friends were at your school.

Then you are told some white judges ordered that you have to get up 1 hour earlier to be bused to a school mostly with white kids - white kids you don't know and white kids who have a lot more money for clothes, cool cars and the rest - while you have 2nd hand clothes because your father is a janitor and your mother a part time maid. Then you get in line to wait for your long bus ride home - with your house maybe the last one to drop off being so far away. Would you like that? Be "I'm so happy I'm in classes with more white kids!" Of course not. You'd want to stay in your neighborhood school with your friends.

And as a black parent, rather than driving your child 3 blocks to and from school, you needed an 2 hours every day to drive across the city to your assigned white school for your black children.

I am all for choices. Mandating choices is not my cup of tea. Ok ok, some may call it patronizing. May be Biden was more far sighted than I thought.
Granny told me to put my nose in da books and don't listen to other childrens being mean. Thank you Granny.

 

[joko104]

Another problem with busing is it has kids wandering all over everywhere by making schools - and the people of them - miles and miles away. It put lots and lots of teens on the street moving around the city, where before live was very neighborhood connected, so busing all business of the neighborhood sense of "community," because the Supreme Court ruled being about other kids where you life is somehow "unconstitutional."

The SCOTUS treated children as non-human cattle to be divided upon by the color of the cows - white, black, brown. What the cows want was irrelevant.

Busing also blew up the Democratic Party politically across the country as they got the blame. Even that inner cities are usually with high minority, low income residences with Democratic leaders - with the suburbs Republican - also traces back to busing.

 

[Bullseye]

Feelings are irrelevant, I am interested in the results, which demonstrated a successful rise in the achievement of black students. As stated, it is not a perfect solution; no one likes long bus rides. But there is zero point in legally desegregating the schools if they are still segregated afterward.

Do you any documentation on this improved of bussed black kids?

 

[TrueScotsman]

Don't people get it, Busing was the answer to the Social Engineering of forced segregation which kept black communities isolated and impoverished. None of you have alternative solutions to this disparity, just arguments that it would be fair for white people with money to give up their advantage.

Or shouldn't the little black children be more happy being second class poor kids among their peers, rather than have to be second class around the wealthy beautiful white kids?

 

[joko104]

Biden is who Biden was. He is an old school blue collar trade union liberal Democrat. There has been no major civil or human rights legislation he did not support, but his greatest focus always was on trade unions (which used to be very important back when the USA still had lots of union manufacturing and jobs).

However, Biden also goes back to when Republicans and Democrats really would compromise and make deals to get things done. They would battle politically when they had to, but none would ever start screaming hatred and unlimited personal attacks as now is increasing expected.

Biden represents a far better era for the liberal Democratic Party - than the new corporate-fascist progressive Democratic Party.

Joe Biden is SO old that he actual dates back to when the Democratic Party urged "buy American" and ALL Democratic printed materials HAD to have the union logo that it was printed in a union print shop. NOW the Democratic Party's slogan is "Foreign imports keep prices low." Joe Biden's old Democratic party opposed mass immigration to protect blue collar workers and union jobs. Now the Democratic Party welcomes low skills immigrants by the millions and millions and millions.

 

[joko104]

The only thing - but everything - standing in Biden's way is his age. If he was 58, but somehow could have the same record and same pitch - he'd blow the other 19 away like they weren't there despite being a white man. But nothing gets him around he's an old man - a dinosaur of a mostly forgotten era where young punk progressives in self-entitlement fantasyland curse the civil and human rights champions of the past.

Joe Biden is the only "liberal" of the 20. The other 19 are "progressives." Those are more diametric opposite of each other than similar.

 

[Lovebug]

Biden is who Biden was. He is an old school blue collar trade union liberal Democrat. There has been no major civil or human rights legislation he did not support, but his greatest focus always was on trade unions (which used to be very important back when the USA still had lots of union manufacturing and jobs).

However, Biden also goes back to when Republicans and Democrats really would compromise and make deals to get things done. They would battle politically when they had to, but none would ever start screaming hatred and unlimited personal attacks as now is increasing expected.

Biden represents a far better era for the liberal Democratic Party - than the new corporate-fascist progressive Democratic Party.

Joe Biden is SO old that he actual dates back to when the Democratic Party urged "buy American" and ALL Democratic printed materials HAD to have the union logo that it was printed in a union print shop. NOW the Democratic Party's slogan is "Foreign imports keep prices low." Joe Biden's old Democratic party opposed mass immigration to protect blue collar workers and union jobs. Now the Democratic Party welcomes low skills immigrants by the millions and millions and millions.

I buy that. I love unions and think that they should level the playing fields abroad as well. But I digress
Everyone is faulting Joe for "working" with the racists back in the day but wonder how those who apply todays morality to what was back in the day would have done differently?
Just look at them. They are whoring themselves out to every potential voter. What's worse, they are whoring themselves out to those who aren't (yet) allowed to vote.

 

[joko104]

I buy that. I love unions and think that they should level the playing fields abroad as well. But I digress
Everyone is faulting Joe for "working" with the racists back in the day but wonder how those who apply todays morality to what was back in the day would have done differently?
Just look at them. They are whoring themselves out to every potential voter. What's worse, they are whoring themselves out to those who aren't (yet) allowed to vote.

Well said! :applaud

 

[Lovebug]

Well said! :applaud

Thank you. I thank my editors, my ancestors, my peeps.




What's a peep?

 

[jimbo]

Pretending is unnecessary, the data speaks for itself. The academic achievement of black students is adversely affected by high concentrations of black students within the same school.

Eric A. Hanushek, John F. Kain, and Steve G. Rivkin. 2009. "New evidence about Brown v. Board of Education: The complex effects of school racial composition on achievement", Journal of Labor Economics, 27, no. 3 (July): 349-383.

Therefore, desegregation busing improves the achievement of black students.

Why? High concentrations of whites didn't seem to have an effect on white education within the same school. Are you saying blacks are different than whites?

I suspect there was more, much more, going on at the time.

 

[TurtleDude]

The argument to the opposite was back then - closer in time to when there was still forced segregation - blacks could earn on average far less than white people and had far less educations - so it was the rich white people perpetuating their advantage by being able to afford better educations for their children (more expensive houses on bigger lots means more money per student per their schools), while poor black people could only afford poor educations for their children. Thus the wages and education gap would perpetually be worse for black students.

THE ISSUE WAS MONEY - not race. White neighborhoods has higher value property from higher income, so got better schools as a result. The economic and education disparity at that time did in fact date back to legal employment and housing discrimination for which black people were even banned from many neighborhoods. While that no longer existed, the racial segregation of communities still did (as still does mostly to this day).

The FLAW in the Supreme Court's decision is their deciding that rather than monitoring and moving the money for equal distribution per student count, not per property tax paid per student, rather than moving the students. That truly was bizarre. The Supreme Court should have simply ruled school districts have to spend - in all ways - the same amount of money for education, teachers, teacher-to-student ratio etc based solely upon the number of students.

One of the enduring outcomes of busing was massive "white flight" - or urban sprawl - with people with money fleeing the inner cities so their kids would be bused to a ghetto school. Putting some white kids there didn't make it a better school - but a still even more dangerous one. By NOT equalizing money, they never equalized school quality and spending. Was was an absurd idea that has harmed our inner cities and school system ever since because they allowed crappy underfunded schools to remain crappy underfunded schools.

YOu're 100% right. IN Cincinnati, other than the Magnet School-The esteemed Walnut Hills (once ranked as high as 3 in the USA-the choice for generations of Cincinnati's best educated Jewish citizens), the schools were pretty bad as white folks moved to places like in Hamilton County such as Indian Hill (million dollar homes are the rule, not the exception) Wyoming, Sycamore, Anderson, and Oak Hills or in nearby Warren County (Mason City Schools) Butler County (Lakota School System) which are all ranked among the elite public schools in Ohio. And those who stayed, -sent their kids to the elite private schools (CCDS, Seven Hills or Summit) or the elite Catholic Schools (Saint Xavier, Ursuline or St Ursula). And the quality of the education for the blacks who remained at the CPSS schools went down as the level of the students diminished

 

[joko104]

Why? High concentrations of whites didn't seem to have an effect on white education within the same school. Are you saying blacks are different than whites?

I suspect there was more, much more, going on at the time.

It is known what was going on at the time. The quality of education - number of teachers per student, quality of teachers, quality of the school, quality of materials - was based upon property taxes. Cities were largely racially segregated in housing to white parts of town - blue and white collar as different areas, black parts of the area (low income) and some Latino areas (low income).

Although after the Civil Rights Act and ending housing and other forced segregation and legal discrimination, the enormous economic gap still existed. Thus, white people of wealth going back to when whites truly did have legal and economic advantage, saw their children getting better educations - while black children got inferior education - creating a perpetual growing gap. Blacks stayed uneducated and poor - and whites got better education and wealthier each generation.

Yet don't all children have an equal right to basic public school education? Equality now was the law. That is not equality.

What the SCOTUS did with this REAL problem that was real inequality, was not the obvious - ordering school spending be on a larger regional basis requiring equal spending per student. Rather, it ordered moving the children around like pawns in a massive social engineering scheme - that really was disastrous on many levels - large and on a personal level for each child and the parents. Detaching schools from their neighborhoods also was disastrous. It lead to massive "white flight" out of the cities. There was a lot of violence children suffered too.

 

[TurtleDude]

It is known what was going on at the time. The quality of education - number of teachers per student, quality of teachers, quality of the school, quality of materials - was based upon property taxes. Cities were largely racially segregated in housing to white parts of town - blue and white collar as different areas, black parts of the area (low income) and some Latino areas (low income).

Although after the Civil Rights Act and ending housing and other forced segregation and legal discrimination, the enormous economic gap still existed. Thus, white people of wealth going back to when whites truly did have legal and economic advantage, saw their children getting better educations - while black children got inferior education - creating a perpetual growing gap. Blacks stayed uneducated and poor - and whites got better education and wealthier each generation.

Yet don't all children have an equal right to basic public school education? Equality now was the law. That is not equality.

What the SCOTUS did with this REAL problem that was real inequality, was not the obvious - ordering school spending be on a larger regional basis requiring equal spending per student. Rather, it ordered moving the children around like pawns in a massive social engineering scheme - that really was disastrous on many levels - large and on a personal level for each child and the parents. Detaching schools from their neighborhoods also was disastrous. It lead to massive "white flight" out of the cities. There was a lot of violence children suffered too.

In a city school district-where it is one governmental entity, I have no issue with the spending being equally applied to each of the city's schools. However, in Cincinnati, the spending per student at the "black schools" is often more than nearby Catholic Schools spend and more than mainly "white schools" outside the city limits spend, yet the academic achievement levels of the black kids in the Catholic schools or the lower class white kids in the white nearby schools are usually far higher.

 

[jimbo]

It is known what was going on at the time. The quality of education - number of teachers per student, quality of teachers, quality of the school, quality of materials - was based upon property taxes. Cities were largely racially segregated in housing to white parts of town - blue and white collar as different areas, black parts of the area (low income) and some Latino areas (low income).

Although after the Civil Rights Act and ending housing and other forced segregation and legal discrimination, the enormous economic gap still existed. Thus, white people of wealth going back to when whites truly did have legal and economic advantage, saw their children getting better educations - while black children got inferior education - creating a perpetual growing gap. Blacks stayed uneducated and poor - and whites got better education and wealthier each generation.

Yet don't all children have an equal right to basic public school education? Equality now was the law. That is not equality.

What the SCOTUS did with this REAL problem that was real inequality, was not the obvious - ordering school spending be on a larger regional basis requiring equal spending per student. Rather, it ordered moving the children around like pawns in a massive social engineering scheme - that really was disastrous on many levels - large and on a personal level for each child and the parents. Detaching schools from their neighborhoods also was disastrous. It lead to massive "white flight" out of the cities. There was a lot of violence children suffered too.

What you describe is why I'm an advocate for vouchers. I have more faith in parents than I do in social engineers, and more faith in the market system than in school administrations. We can't save them all, but we can save most of those who want to be saved. Imagine putting $10K in the hands of every inner city child and let the parents make the choice. You think there won't be quality schools built?

 

[jimbo]

Forced busing was absurd. But young people don't even know what it means.

Any black person who didn't want their kid bused past their school 3 blocks away to a school with lots of white kids 5 miles away is a racist? It was one of the worst and most bizarre Supreme Court decision ever. The issue was unequal spending of school money. The simple solution would have been to order school districts to evenly spend school money based upon the number of students in the school with the same level of supplies and teachers - not make every school kid a victim of their social engineering with NO constitutional basis whatsoever.

The problem too, at the time, was that the system was more interested in integration than education. Black students were nothing more than tokens.

 

[Irredentist]

What did it do to the achievement of the white students? I never went to public schools, but my wife and son did. We live in a school district that is extremely high achieving-and that is driven =in a great part due to=lots of highly educated Indian and Chinese professionals who work for major employers such as Proctor and Gamble and General Electric's Jet Engine factory. People are willing to pay higher property taxes because the school is top rated. Now I live in a smaller city but in big cities-the same thing was in place-the expensive areas had better schools. Is it fair to people who are willing to pay more in taxes for better schools, to lose that advantage?

Perhaps a better question is, is it fair for people who are unable to pay higher property taxes to be forced to send their children to worse schools.

 

[Irredentist]

Why? High concentrations of whites didn't seem to have an effect on white education within the same school. Are you saying blacks are different than whites?

I suspect there was more, much more, going on at the time.

I do not claim to understand the exact nature of the phenomena, only that forcing schools to integrate, via busing or otherwise, seems to improve the academic achievement of black students. I suspect multiple factors to be at work.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Perhaps a better question is, is it fair for people who are unable to pay higher property taxes to be forced to send their children to worse schools.

Nope. A level starting field would be a disaster for the wealthy and their middle class sycophants. This is why it will never happen.

 

[Harshaw]

I'm absolutely gobsmacked. How the hell did no one find these clips until today?!

Nobody wanted to.