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Biden preemptively bollixes any Trump attempt to reestablish Schedule F

EMNofSeattle said:
Only to the the extent it doesn’t restrict the powers of the president, whose powers can’t be modified by congress without constitutional amendment.

Congress can restrain the power of the bureaucracy, but not the president himself. The president can personally fire any federal employee period and congress or the courts can’t do anything about it.

The APA doesn’t ban the president from firing his employees
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Wouldn’t he have to personally do the paperwork, etc.?
 
NolanVoyd said:
You said "fire them anyway", have the border patrol(?) Lock them out, etc.

That would be illegal, there are rules. That would be authoritarian not constitutional. The president has a duty to see that the laws, and rules are executed, violating those rules/laws would be an unconstitutional act on the part of the president.
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There is no constitutional rule for cabinet positions. They exist at the pleasure of the President. Every 3 letter department can be eliminated.
 
What if...? said:
Wouldn’t he have to personally do the paperwork, etc.?
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I think his verbal pronouncement is sufficient, but my argument is the president can personally fire, whereas any person below the president is subject to civil service restrictions
 
The other issue implicit in this is that Biden is looking at the political landscape and the polling and is realizing he is going to lose and probably by too big a margin to cheat and so he’s now trying to Jam up the gears to handcuff Trump
 
NolanVoyd said:
You said "fire them anyway", have the border patrol(?) Lock them out, etc.

That would be illegal, there are rules. That would be authoritarian not constitutional. The president has a duty to see that the laws, and rules are executed, violating those rules/laws would be an unconstitutional act on the part of the president.
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Oh the border patrol union is strongly pro-trump and the rank and file can be considered loyal unlike the FBI for example. So Trump will have to identify loyal forces to him and use them accordingly
 
Safiel said:
www.nationalreview.com

Biden Administration Finalizes Rule Preventing Federal Employees from Being Fired | National Review

Trump issued an executive order towards the end of his administration creating, ‘Schedule F,’ an employment category that would make it easier to fire federal employees.
www.nationalreview.com www.nationalreview.com

The new rule protects members of the civil service from being recategorized into a non-protected job category. While the President maintains the right to recategorize political appointees at will, civil servants are protected.

By the time that Trump, if reelected, could get this rule rolled back, time would likely run out on him before he could enact another Schedule F.
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President Biden, working to make all Americans lives better. Based on how much elected MAGAts get done, what do you suppose would happen if the non-partisan jobs suddenly were filled by them?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
So allowing the democratically elected president to fire government employees who take it on themselves to block his platform makes us like North Korea?
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There are political employees, and permanent employees. Yes, a President firing the non-partisan employees would make us look like an authoritarian state.
 
LouC said:
That said, from personal first hand knowledge, it is, in my considered opinion, WAY TOO HARD to fire-remove poor incompetent and unfit.
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You are incredibly correct there. This is one of those issues that has be, and unfitinto a black and white choice when it's really got a lot of gray

Should the president be firing non-political positions based on ideology? Absolutely not.

Is it far to difficult to terminate individuals in the federal government? Absolutely.

Are there individuals within various government agencies that feel, and perform their job, with the mindset that they should be doing what THEY think is best for the American public as opposed to what agenda their over all boss (the head of the Executive Branch) wants? Absolutely as well, and I've personally seen that under administrations of both parties.
 
neo publius said:
There is no constitutional rule for cabinet positions. They exist at the pleasure of the President. Every 3 letter department can be eliminated.
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He is not talking about cabinet positions, which are political appointees, he is talking about civil servants, which are not.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Oh the border patrol union is strongly pro-trump and the rank and file can be considered loyal unlike the FBI for example. So Trump will have to identify loyal forces to him and use them accordingly
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That us unamerican authoritarian BS.

You don't understand America at all. People that serve must be loyal to the constitution and laws, never to one particular president.

If you like that third world shit why not move to a third world country instead of trying to F this one up?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The other issue implicit in this is that Biden is looking at the political landscape and the polling and is realizing he is going to lose and probably by too big a margin to cheat and so he’s now trying to Jam up the gears to handcuff Trump
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The opposite of every facet of your post is supported by the facts. According to you, reality is "now trying to Jam up the gears to handcuff Trump."
Revenge.... the draw behind the irresistible attraction of the developmentally damaged to Trump and the entire purpose of his perpetual candidacy!

The Trump sabotage sabotage of the competitive service you bemoan as "jammed up gears" by Biden never existed in the first place!

Schedule F appointment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
"..By the January 19 deadline, two agencies had submitted their petitions to reclassify employees. The Office of Management and Budget submitted a list of 140 position types, of which 136 were approved by OPM, excluding four Presidential Management Fellow positions. These 136 position types would have applied to 415 employees out of the agency's total of 610 employees. Most of the affected employees were in program examination, digital services, and policy analysis positions. The necessary human resource processing steps were not taken prior to the change in administration, and no one was actually reclassified..."

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › 2020_dismissal_of_inspectors_general

2020 dismissal of inspectors general - Wikipedia​

In April and May 2020, United States President Donald Trump dismissed the inspectors general (IGs) of five cabinet departments in the space of six weeks. The inspectors general removed were Michael K. Atkinson, Intelligence, on April 3; Glenn Fine (acting), Defense, April 7; Christi Grimm (acting), Health

Schedule F appointment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"...Repeal and later developments​

It was repealed by President Biden through Executive Order 14003 on January 22, 2021, the third day of his administration.[10][11] No employees had been moved to the new classification.[12][13]

In mid-2022, it was reported that Trump and his allies planned to reinstate the Schedule F provisions if he were elected to a second term,[1] including identifying around 50,000 workers who could be reclassified.[14] In March 2023, reinstatement of Schedule F was included at a top of a list of proposals from the Trump 2024 presidential campaign,[15] while Ron DeSantis had written approvingly of it in his book The Courage to Be Free.[16][17] The next month, it was reported that Project 2025, a coalition led by The Heritage Foundation, was preparing a personnel database that could be used to fill up to 20,000 potential Schedule F appointments in a future Republican administration.[18] .."

​

 
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EMNofSeattle said:
Trump just needs to fire the workers anyway and have loyalists, maybe border patrol officers, physically lock them out of their government offices and seize any government computers and refuse to return them until the Supreme Court has ruled on their case
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You don't think he should hire people who are most qualified to do the work?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The other issue implicit in this is that Biden is looking at the political landscape and the polling and is realizing he is going to lose and probably by too big a margin to cheat and so he’s now trying to Jam up the gears to handcuff Trump
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This 'Jam up the gears to handcuff' a president that the swamp doesn't like, is the concern. We've witnessed this during the Trump presidency.
 
eohrnberger said:
This 'Jam up the gears to handcuff' a president that the swamp doesn't like, is the concern. We've witnessed this during the Trump presidency.
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Trump is the effin' swamp! He grifts the least educated, fragile White voter into regarding Him as unaccountable victim.

 
Safiel said:
www.nationalreview.com

Biden Administration Finalizes Rule Preventing Federal Employees from Being Fired | National Review

Trump issued an executive order towards the end of his administration creating, ‘Schedule F,’ an employment category that would make it easier to fire federal employees.
www.nationalreview.com www.nationalreview.com

The new rule protects members of the civil service from being recategorized into a non-protected job category. While the President maintains the right to recategorize political appointees at will, civil servants are protected.

By the time that Trump, if reelected, could get this rule rolled back, time would likely run out on him before he could enact another Schedule F.
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Since when does any "rule making" Agency which exists under authority of the President per Article II of the US Constitution have the power to make rules that the President cannot "nix" by Executive Order?

The only body under the U.S. Constitution which can create "law" is the Congress (House and Senate) under Article I authority. Even then, the President has the power to veto, compelling Congress to override said veto or the law remains null and void.

Congress can grant Agencies which come under Article II the power to create regulations, but those Agencies work under the President, and he can tell them to go to hell. These are unelected bureaucrats, and you people think they should have the power to restrict the Article II authority of the President?

This is exactly the socialist mindset at work, create a massive bureaucracy and give it powers never envisioned by the Founders. Then allow this unelected bureaucracy to act in a partisan manner regardless of who is the President. Completely in violation of Article II?

IMO the real threat to the American Republic are the people who assert that unelected bureaucrats have such power.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Since when does any "rule making" Agency which exists under authority of the President per Article II of the US Constitution have the power to make rules that the President cannot "nix" by Executive Order?

The only body under the U.S. Constitution which can create "law" is the Congress (House and Senate) under Article I authority. Even then, the President has the power to veto, compelling Congress to override said veto or the law remains null and void.
-snip-
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You advocate for a non-competitive hiring and retention process predicated on revenge for partisan political purpose. i.e., control.
Legislative intent influencing creation of the statute in the first place, escapes your notice in favor of pushing
for a unitary executive.
www.nextgov.com

OPM issues its final rule for Schedule F protections

The federal HR agency finalized its rule offering protections for career civil servants meant to safeguard against the potential reemergence of the Trump-era Schedule F policy.
www.nextgov.com www.nextgov.com
April 4, 2024
"
The Office of Personnel Management issued the final version of its regulation meant to safeguard the civil service from the return of a Trump-era policy that sought to convert most federal employees to at-will workers.

The new regulation — which will be published in the Federal Register for public inspection on Thursday — seeks to provide 2.2 million federal employees with defined protections that would make it difficult for a future administration to re-apply the Trump policy, known as Schedule F.

“We are confident that our final rule is the best reading of civil service statutes and is grounded in the civil service in the statutory language, congressional intent, legislative history and decades of applicable case law and practice,” said OPM Deputy Director Rob Shriver on a press call. “The rule is strong, it will help to ensure the rights employees earned as envisioned by Congress when it enacted the Civil Service Reform Act in 1978 and expanded and strengthened those protections through subsequent enactments.”

The regulation has its roots in an October 2020 executive order from the Trump administration that created a new job category for federal employees in policy-related positions, dubbed Schedule F, that would exempt them from civil service protections and make them easier to remove.

President Joe Biden rescinded the executive order in January 2021 before it could be fully implemented, but nine days before Biden took office, the Office of Management and Budget received OPM approval to move 68% of its workforce into Schedule F.

OPM officials began working on new regulations to make it difficult to reintroduce Schedule F policies in September 2023, receiving more than 4,000 public comments.

"Today, my administration is announcing protections for 2.2 million career civil servants from political interference, to guarantee that they can carry out their responsibilities in the best interest of the American people," said Biden, in a statement. Day in and day out, career civil servants provide the expertise and continuity necessary for our democracy to function. They provide Americans with life-saving and life-changing services and put opportunity within reach for millions. That’s why since taking office, I have worked to strengthen, empower and rebuild our career workforce. This rule is a step toward combatting corruption and partisan interference to ensure civil servants are able to focus on the most important task at hand: delivering for the American people."

The final rule states that an employee’s civil service protections cannot be taken away by an involuntary move from the competitive service to the excepted service; clarifies that the “employees in confidential, policy-determining, policy-making or policy-advocating positions” terminology used to define Schedule F employees means noncareer, political appointments and won’t be applied to career civil servants; and sets up an appeals process with the Merit Systems Protection Board for any employees involuntarily transferred from the competitive service to the excepted service and within the excepted service.

The move comes in an election year where Trump is seeking a return to the White House, and GOP allies, and rivals, have sought to revive the policy if elected. "
 
I pledge allegiance to Donald Trump
And the Republic of which he owns,
One nation, under trump, quite divided ,
with liberty and justice only for people who love him like we do.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The other issue implicit in this is that Biden is looking at the political landscape and the polling and is realizing he is going to lose and probably by too big a margin to cheat and so he’s now trying to Jam up the gears to handcuff Trump
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so, you are telling us biden is being both clever and farsighted
i can live with that
 
BirdinHand said:
Why do you hold the strange belief that random federal employees that have worked in administrative functions for perhaps decades are “swamp”?

Do you think these people make significant policy?
😂

Yes - the administrative staff that are doing their jobs behind the scenes every.single.day to keep the federal government running are “great government”.
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Vast majority of them are not, but there are those worthless pos who Joe Biden wants to protect......these are the swamp. Why would you want POS to continue to work in our government?
 
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