• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Bible Justifies Massacre?

Arch Enemy

Familiaist
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
7,470
Reaction score
2,085
Location
North Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
In certain places of the bible, Massacres and down-right slaughtering is allowed to occur.

Example:

[url said:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=6&version=31[/url], Joshua 6: 20 & 21]"When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
This is also evident in some of David's attacks and victories.
When should we draw the lines, as Christians, when the slaughtering of people is justifiable... are we not suppose to love our brothers? No matter what the difference is?
 

donkeykong

New member
Joined
Jul 1, 2005
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
God does some downright immoral things in the bible such as killing all the egyptian firstborns. I dont understand how people can define moralilty based on the bible. But then I'm reminded of the republicans...
 

shh!

New member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
47
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
donkeykong said:
God does some downright immoral things in the bible such as killing all the egyptian firstborns. I dont understand how people can define moralilty based on the bible. But then I'm reminded of the republicans...
I agree completely.
 

Arch Enemy

Familiaist
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
7,470
Reaction score
2,085
Location
North Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Would a "Bible-Thumper" like to help me with this situation. I personally don't know what to think of this, as said before me... this is not the textbook God, whom I'm familiar with... this seems something unusual.
 

Datamonkee

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
216
Reaction score
2
Location
Orlando, Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
donkeykong said:
God does some downright immoral things in the bible such as killing all the egyptian firstborns. I dont understand how people can define moralilty based on the bible. But then I'm reminded of the republicans...
Well, for one, you cannot assign a morality to a god. Big or little "g". By definition they are above laws they set for mankind. That is why they are gods. Their ways are mysterious. If we could understand the thought process of a god, then we, ourselves, would be gods.
Secondly, in the eyes of Christians, God is the final word on all things. If he tells you to do something, then do it. It is not a sin if God says "Kill this". There are several instances in the Bible where a culture was so far removed from God that he ordered the Israelites to destroy them and everything they owned in order to keep the sickness from spreading. In some instances, he sent his angels to do the same thing (Sodom and Gomorrah).
As for the killing of the Egyptian firstborn, according to the story, Pharaoh brought that on himself. There were several non-lethal messages before that particular instance and Pharaoh thought his god was more powerful. He was obviously incorrect. At least according the the Biblical version. Then again, the Egyptians believed their Pharaohs were also gods, so he was a weak Pharaoh.
 

Stherngntlmn

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
236
Reaction score
0
Location
Richmond, Va
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
In joshua... God uses the battles of Canaan, jericho included, to teach isreal(his people), lessons. If they fight according to God's will, they will completely overtake any enemy because God will be with them. If they do not, then God will not be with them and they will fail, as they did in the second battle of jericho. Because the last battle of jericho was fought according to the will of the lord, God made turned the walls of jericho to rubble at the sound of the isreali trumpets.

The people of jericho were killed or 'herem'-ed as hebrew calls it.. because that was the way isreal was to fight their battles in Canaan. God ordained this in the old testament because the Canaanites were a pagan people who commited many unrepentant acts of sin against the Lord, 'herem' was their penance for that sin. You'll notice that after the crucifiction of Jesus, this was no longer the way of the Lord, because Jesus had already given the blood sacrifice necesssary for the penance for the sins of mankind.
 

Arch Enemy

Familiaist
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
7,470
Reaction score
2,085
Location
North Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
So what you're saying is that massacres are justified... if the enemy is that of a pagan religion.

So I'd still go to heaven if I rounded up a bunch of Pagans and threw them into a gas chamber?

Wouldn't you think the falling down of the walls just by trumpets and marching would make you support God?
 

Stherngntlmn

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
236
Reaction score
0
Location
Richmond, Va
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Arch Enemy said:
So what you're saying is that massacres are justified... if the enemy is that of a pagan religion.
I'm saying that in that era 'herem' was a common outcome of battle, and in these particular passages, the hebrews were told to do that by God.

Arch Enemy said:
So I'd still go to heaven if I rounded up a bunch of Pagans and threw them into a gas chamber?
no, if you'll actually read the post, instead of skimming for points to create an arguement, I already explained why.

Arch Enemy said:
Wouldn't you think the falling down of the walls just by trumpets and marching would make you support God?
I'd think the fact that you're alive is enough... but the jews were a hardheaded people and God spent most of the old testament repeatedly having to refocus them because of their tendancy to stray or not listen.

If you are truely interested in this subject matter, which I doubt, I'm sure a pastor at your local church, who's studied these passages in detail for his degree, would be much more helpful in your comprehension. I'm also sure they'd be happy to council you about any other religious issues you find interesting as long as you approached them in a respectful manner
 

Arch Enemy

Familiaist
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
Messages
7,470
Reaction score
2,085
Location
North Carolina
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Now that you say that... I don't recall the passage where God tells Joshua "As soon as the walls come crumbling down, kill all even the babies (who haven't sinned).."

I actually attend a local church, the only reason why I posted this question/passage was because a deacon of the church made a statement about these massacres.. so I was just curious.
 

donkeykong

New member
Joined
Jul 1, 2005
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Datamonkee said:
Well, for one, you cannot assign a morality to a god. Big or little "g". By definition they are above laws they set for mankind. That is why they are gods. Their ways are mysterious. If we could understand the thought process of a god, then we, ourselves, would be gods.
Secondly, in the eyes of Christians, God is the final word on all things. If he tells you to do something, then do it. It is not a sin if God says "Kill this". There are several instances in the Bible where a culture was so far removed from God that he ordered the Israelites to destroy them and everything they owned in order to keep the sickness from spreading.
I completely reject the notion that morality is dependant on God. Humans are inherently rational beings that grow and mature as a result of the struggle to understand right and wrong as well as other things. To have ones moral viewpoint entirely dictated from without is a recipe for naivete.
 

Datamonkee

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
216
Reaction score
2
Location
Orlando, Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
donkeykong said:
I completely reject the notion that morality is dependant on God. Humans are inherently rational beings that grow and mature as a result of the struggle to understand right and wrong as well as other things. To have ones moral viewpoint entirely dictated from without is a recipe for naivete.

Reject away, but every single culture that has a god or group of gods, their morality has been given to them by those beings, at least from their point of view. Moses was not the first to accept the guidelines of a religion from a deified persona. Every single one. That is the point of religion. A belief that a higher being is guiding your life, and will reward you in the end when you pass on. Teaching you to reach a higher existence or plain of understanding. Guiding your morales and/or ethics.
 

donkeykong

New member
Joined
Jul 1, 2005
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Datamonkee said:
Reject away, but every single culture that has a god or group of gods, their morality has been given to them by those beings, at least from their point of view. Moses was not the first to accept the guidelines of a religion from a deified persona. Every single one. That is the point of religion. A belief that a higher being is guiding your life, and will reward you in the end when you pass on. Teaching you to reach a higher existence or plain of understanding. Guiding your morales and/or ethics.
Is it not better to THINK about morality? To ask WHY is a thing right or wrong without resorting to "God said so." Maybe you wouldn't kill somebody in cold blood because the bible says not to but I'm willing to bet that atheists are also pretty much in agreement that it's wrong. That moral exists with or without god so we can not say that morality is dependant on religion. So I ask you: What makes an action morally right or wrong?
 

CanadianGuy

Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
217
Reaction score
0
Location
Canada eh!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
donkeykong said:
Is it not better to THINK about morality? To ask WHY is a thing right or wrong without resorting to "God said so." Maybe you wouldn't kill somebody in cold blood because the bible says not to but I'm willing to bet that atheists are also pretty much in agreement that it's wrong. That moral exists with or without god so we can not say that morality is dependant on religion. So I ask you: What makes an action morally right or wrong?
Only because they became one. I bet that their ancestors were religious and they recieved many of their ideals from religion. It has always been something driving humans to do better and to do the things that were right. Religion was the major one for a long time and still is but there is now police and others.
 
Top Bottom