Best US Weapons for Kiev, Ukraine

[Reformedfindlay]

To give a comparison, the HAWK missile system first saw service in 1960, the year before the SA-3 Goa system from the Soviet Union (1961).

Now the HAWK was phased out of active duty ADA units in 1994, and completely phased out of the Army Reserve and National Guard by 2002. That is over 12-21 years ago. But the SA-3 is still produced in Russia, and was being manufactured and delivered as recently as 2011. The main difference is that the US is very selective who it delivers it's technology to. Russia (like the Soviet Union) on the other hand will deliver it's equipment to whoever can pay it money.

Exactly. We can give them our older systems that would otherwise rot in storage.

Not only are they effective for the task at hand but it clears a lot of space in our inventory which means saving $$$ while also helping out an ally.

I'm ALWAYS reluctant for us to give someone outside of perhaps GB or a few other European countries (like Germany) our VERY BEST for most things because I simply don't trust them enough.

Ukraine is an ally, I still don't think I'd trust them with our best equipment, especially if they let it fall into the hands of the separatists. That'd be retarded and a waste of our money.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Ukraine is an ally, I still don't think I'd trust them with our best equipment, especially if they let it fall into the hands of the separatists. That'd be retarded and a waste of our money.

I would not call them an "ally" to be honest. If they were really an ally, they would have joined NATO decades ago like many of their former "Warsaw Pact" nations. For the most part, they have sat on the fence the last 20 years, and are only now screaming for help when it is them under attack from the "Big Bear", and not some of Russia's other neighbors.

And even to this day, they are not trying to join NATO or forming any real alliances. If they were, at least they could guarantee that they would get help in preventing Russia from advancing any further, even if not in the actual current conflict itself.

 

[Fallenangel]

Seems to me they said the same thing about Afghanistan.

One thing that Russia should be aware of is that they can't take to many losses, or the mothers back home will start to question why their sons are being lost in trying to conquer part of a nation they have no business trying to conquer. The Ukraine does not really need "game changing" equipment, as much as they simply need help having enough of it to make this invasion and occupation to costly to continue.

When things are looked at logically, when Russian troops are sitting in the Ukraine itself, it becomes hard to deny it is not an attempt to annex another nation that they have no right to annex land from. Much like so many other "invasions" they have conducted in the last 20 years. When their own territory continues to grow and that of their neighbors shrink, eventually it becomes hard to hide form your own population that you are indeed conducting wars of aggression for your own advancement.

Wars of attrition often work to the advantage of the defender, just so long that they make it costly enough to raise the ire of the nation doing the attacking.

If Russia actually wanted to annex Donbass, Ukraine or anything it would've done that in September-August 2014, when Ukrainian forces were crushed and "Northern Wind" was felt all over Eastern Ukraine.

EDIT: I stopped counting the number of times I already said that on DP ... sigh.

EDIT 2: BTW if one judges by Ukrainian sources no US help is needed anyways, as Russia would be soon out of male population that it can "send" to fight in Ukraine ... as per Ukrainian sources they kill hundreds and hundreds of Russian FSBChechenGRUSpetsnaz every day.

Fallen.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

I would not call them an "ally" to be honest. If they were really an ally, they would have joined NATO decades ago like many of their former "Warsaw Pact" nations. For the most part, they have sat on the fence the last 20 years, and are only now screaming for help when it is them under attack from the "Big Bear", and not some of Russia's other neighbors.

And even to this day, they are not trying to join NATO or forming any real alliances. If they were, at least they could guarantee that they would get help in preventing Russia from advancing any further, even if not in the actual current conflict itself.

I never thought of it that way but I see now.

 

[Cryptic]

Seems to me they said the same thing about Afghanistan.

One thing that Russia should be aware of is that they can't take to many losses, or the mothers back home will start to question why their sons are being lost in trying to conquer part of a nation they have no business trying to conquer. The Ukraine does not really need "game changing" equipment, as much as they simply need help having enough of it to make this invasion and occupation to costly to continue.

I have a sinking feeling that Ukraine will run out of military options before large number of Russian mothers start calling.

Currently, several thousand Ukrainians are close to being surrounded at Debaltseve. The supply / retreat / reinforcements road has been cut in at least one place. Even before the rebel offensive, the tactical situation was very difficult. Though the commanders of the Wermacht, the IDF or General Lee's Army of Northeren Virginia could quickly turn things around, the Ukrainian general staff is clearly not on their level. A Ukrainian defeat at Debaltseve could well collapse their entire army.

Meanwhile, there have been protests in Russia, hundreds of Russian conscripts have refused to sign "over seas" deployment contracts, there has been a dwindling of real volunteers, and a Siberian political leader has encouraged the local government in her region not to cooperate with Russian volunteer / mercenary recruiters.

But... Debaltseve could collapse in days. The above issues are going to take months, or even longer to mature. Thus the need for "game changers" now.

If Russia actually wanted to annex Donbass, Ukraine or anything it would've done that in September-August 2014, when Ukrainian forces were crushed and "Northern Wind" was felt all over Eastern Ukraine.

My guess is that they saw that Ukraine was wobbling, and were hoping for an internal collapse without having to fight town by town. Ukraine recovered enough to fight on. The Russian ran out of patience waiting for an internal collapse, so a new knock out offensive was ordered.

 

[Oozlefinch]

But... Debaltseve could collapse in days. The above issues are going to take months, or even longer to mature. Thus the need for "game changers" now..

And in this I do agree. But also read my previous post.

The problem here is that the Ukraine is not really trying to do anything to help itself in relationship to other nations. They are not a member of NATO, nor are they a member of the EU. Their history for the past 20 years has been "sit on the fence and not piss off Russia", and we are seeing how well that is working now. Now Russia is trying to tear a big chunk off of their country, and this policy of theirs has done nothing but guarantee that there is nobody that will come to their aid.

Do I feel bad for them, yes. Do I wish somebody could help, yes. But they are now in a condition that they themselves put them into. No EU defenses available (not that the EU could do much anyways), no NATO defenses available. I guess they can go and make a complaint to the UN or the UNSC, but everybody knows how that would go if they seriously tried.

So now they are suffering, and although I want to help, it is also squarely their own fault for not trying to form alliances to protect themselves against the larger neighbor that has invaded them multiple times, and when it ruled a conglomerate nation literally killed millions of their people. There is a saying about people that do the same thing repeatedly and expect different results. Did they really think that Russia would not come after them again if they were an independent nation?

 

[Cryptic]

And in this I do agree. But also read my previous post.

The problem here is that the Ukraine is not really trying to do anything to help itself in relationship to other nations. They are not a member of NATO, nor are they a member of the EU. Their history for the past 20 years has been "sit on the fence and not piss off Russia", and we are seeing how well that is working now. Now Russia is trying to tear a big chunk off of their country, and this policy of theirs has done nothing but guarantee that there is nobody that will come to their aid.

This is oversimplified.

First, NATO was not going to let Ukraine join as most members really dont want to honor their treaty commitments against viable opponents- and Russia is a viable opponent.
Secondly, If Ukriane had even asked to join NATO, then the Russians would ahve moved on Crimea then, and "strange guys with weapons and radios" would have appeared in eastern Ukraine.

So now they are suffering, and although I want to help, it is also squarely their own fault for not trying to form alliances to protect themselves against the larger neighbor that has invaded them multiple times, and when it ruled a conglomerate nation literally killed millions of their people.

"Trying to enter into a protective alliance" that did not truly want them would just have started a war with Russia then. It simply is not the fault of Ukraine. Heck, most NATO members would probaby "de-list" Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania if they could do so politically. Letting in Ukraine and taking the risk of fighting Russia was out of the question.

And... even had Ukraine been in NATO, most members are not going to seriously honor their treaty commitments over Ukraine and the Donbass. In short, the eastern members of NATO need to realize that the western NATO cavalry is only coming for easy and painless saves. Anthing more than that, and the cavalry is staying home and sending only token aid.

That is why Poland has made their own credible detterent. Though I am sure that Poland greatly appreciates NATO help, they need to be prepared to go it nearly alone. Accordingly, they have the biggest tank fleet in western Europe which includes 250 plus German built and German maintained Leopards that were sold to them at very attractive "friendship prices".

 

[Oozlefinch]

This is oversimplified.

First, NATO was not going to let Ukraine join as most members really dont want to honor thei treaty commitments against viable opponents- and Russia is a viable opponent.
Secondly, If Ukriane had even asked to join NATO, then the Russians would ahve moved on Crimea then, and "strange guys with weapons and radios" would have appeared in eastern Ukraine.

Seems we heard that before in regards to Poland, Hungary and what is now the Czech Republic as well as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania.

No, if they had joined like so many other former Warsaw Pact nations Russia would have done nothing, because they could do nothing. For at least a decade Russia was largely crippled with her own internal problems, and had no interest or desire to go off trying to chase down her former partners. It is really within the last decade that Russia started to eye her neighbors with expansion in mind.

And NATO would have let the Ukraine join, in fact they had applied to do so in 2008. But their new President pulled the request in 2010. And there had been talks since 1997, but NATO pulled out after a scandal was unearthed where the Ukraine Defense Minister and President sold proscribed weapons to Iraq, including air defense systems in violation of a UN weapons embargo.

So once again, I really blame nobody for this situation but the Ukraine itself. And it is much the same with Georgia. They played with the idea of joining NATO for over a decade, but never actually made a decision. Then when Russia rose up and lopped off a chunk of their country, NATO could do nothing but watch. And now Russia is actually using the threat of further invasions on any country that it borders that even considers joining NATO.

So to be honest, at this time there is really not much that can be done. Georgia and Ukraine simply waited to long and let Russia regain it's former power and stability so that trying to joining NATO now would be suicide. They should have made moves 15 years ago when Russia was not really in any condition to block such a move.

 

[Cryptic]

Seems we heard that before in regards to Poland, Hungary and what is now the Czech Republic as well as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania.

Simply put Russia does not view Ukraine in the same way it views Poland, Czech republic, or even the Baltics. As such, any attempt by Ukraine to join NATO, at anytime, would result in the loss of Crimea and "little green men" in other places. It does not matter if Russia was fully prepared for the effort or not.

They spent several thousand lives keeping Chechneya in "the system". They would easily absorb a few NATO bombing runs. Nobody has any illusions that NATO ground forces were going to be used to save the Donbas or Crimea.

And it is much the same with Georgia. They played with the idea of joining NATO for over a decade, but never actually made a decision. Then when Russia rose up and lopped off a chunk of their country, NATO could do nothing but watch. And now Russia is actually using the threat of further invasions on any country that it borders that even considers joining NATO.

Being in NATO does not mean that the other members are going to actually honor their treaty obligations- espescially when it involves fatalities. Even with out fatalities, Greece pretty much sided with Serbia. How many lives are the Germans, French and British going to spend on the Donbas or Abkhazia? My guess is between 0 and 10.

 

[joko104]

Stingers. Anti-armor weapons. Night vision sniper rifles.

 

[Cryptic]

Stingers. Anti-armor weapons. Night vision sniper rifles.

Artillery radars, encrypted radios, radio / radar jammers, anti sniper devises (directional finders), anti mine and roadside bomb devises.

 

[EnigmaO01]

Since no photos of Russian have shown up and the Novorussians say the troops are
Chechans, Russians, etc. and all volunteers. When you can prove otherwise, let me
know. There are plenty of US Contactors/mercenaries/Xe etc. Lots of US weapons,
and it couldn't even have been initiated without US money.

Can you prove your contention with photos etc.?

Didn't think so.

 

[SayMyName]

As it looks right now, non-lethal equipment that protects your posterior as you are running away might be the most welcomed by troops in the Ukrainian army.

 

[MrFirst]

"Washington (AFP) - The US military has delivered three radars to Ukraine designed to detect incoming mortar fire, the Pentagon said Friday, amid appeals from Kiev for Washington to send weapons to help fight pro-Russian rebels."

US delivers anti-mortar radars to Ukraine: Pentagon

Seems the rebels have captured at least part of the US-made radar. Special equipment in metal boxes with English language marks. On 4 min 20 sec the militants are examining the foreign equipment. They also ask Americans to send them more good things.



In general this video shows what happens to the weapons sent for Ukrainian army. Ukrainian troops abandoned bulks of ammos, shells and other property almost intact.

 

[Cryptic]

Seems the rebels have captured at least part of the US-made radar. Special equipment in metal boxes with English language marks. On 4 min 20 sec the militants are examining the foreign equipment. They also ask Americans to send them more good things.

In general this video shows what happens to the weapons sent for Ukrainian army. Ukrainian troops abandoned bulks of ammos, shells and other property almost intact.

Glad to hear that neither Putin nor the rebels have any objections to the USA sending more weapons.

 

[Rogue Valley]

What would MrFirst say is these were purported Russian weapons? Oh yea ... I didn't see any boxes labeled "Россия"

Well bud, I didn't see any boxes labeled "Made in the USA"

You see MrFirst, two can play your well-worn maskirovka game.

 

[MrFirst]

Here the Humvee captured by rebels, maybe the one used as anti-mortar radar system:

 

[Cryptic]

Here the Humvee captured by rebels, maybe the one used as anti-mortar radar system:

Can you prove beyond all possible doubt that the Humvee originated from the US military stockpiles? Maybe the Ukrainians bought it on the civilian market. Or, it could be a Chinese knock off... .

 

[MrFirst]

Can you prove beyond all possible doubt that the Humvee originated from the US military stockpiles? Maybe the Ukrainians bought it on the civilian market. Or, it could be a Chinese knock off... .

Maybe. I don't care.

 

[MrFirst]

One more video from abandoned Ukrainian positions.

Rapidly escaping Ukrainians left tanks, vehicles, ammo, shells, flags and even cat.

Funny details: various things have signs like "The gift for Ukrainian fighters from ..." Like the iron oven on 6min 23sec signed with white letters: "From staff of Vizar comany". Now all this junk has new owners.

 

[MrFirst]

You see MrFirst, two can play your well-worn maskirovka game.

Doesn't matter who can play. Who can win matters.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Doesn't matter who can play. Who can win matters.

Well MrFirst, Russia invading Ukraine is like the US invading Haiti. Hardly a military challenge and nothing to chest thump about.

For a supposed bear though, about the best you can do is the small fry ... the Georgia's and the Ukraine's of the world.

 

[MrFirst]

You are funny, Simplex.

 

[Rogue Valley]

It's obvious. Once you step away from your immediate neighbors, your military logistic capabilities are zilch.