Best US Weapons for Kiev, Ukraine

[Gladiator]

"The Ukraine Freedom Support Act (UFSA) of 2014 authorizes lethal and non-lethal aid. Besides what’s already being supplied.Including communications equipment. Body armor. Night vision goggles. Humvees. Radar. Counter-mortar detection units. Binoculars. Small boats. Various other gear.
Sniper and assault rifles. Hand grenade launchers. Mortars and shells. Stingers. Anti-tank missiles. What’s known may be the tip of the iceberg.
UFSA legislation “authoriz(ing) (Obama) to provide defense articles, defense services, and training to the Government of Ukraine for the purpose of countering offensive weapons and reestablishing the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine…”
“(I)ncluding anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, crew weapons and ammunition, counter-artillery radars to identify and target artillery batteries, fire control, range finder, and optical and guidance and control equipment, tactical troop-operated surveillance drones, and secure command and communications equipment.”

Here Is What Types of Arms US Is Giving Ukraine - Russia Insider



"Washington (AFP) - The US military has delivered three radars to Ukraine designed to detect incoming mortar fire, the Pentagon said Friday, amid appeals from Kiev for Washington to send weapons to help fight pro-Russian rebels."

US delivers anti-mortar radars to Ukraine: Pentagon



"There’s a large gap between what the U.S. has promised in nonlethal military aid to Ukraine's armed forces and national guard and what it has actually delivered. As the U.S. promises to consider sending lethal aid to Ukraine, those delays and shortfalls are not only feeding frustration and disappointment, but also undermining the credibility of these new pledges.
Secretary of State John Kerry met with Ukraine’s President Petro Poroshenko on Thursday and pledged that the U.S. would stand by his government as it battles an increasingly aggressive separatist movement, heavily supported and armed by the Russian government. But according to the Obama administration’s own accounting to Congress, revealed in a document distributed on Capitol Hill in mid-December that I obtained, only half of the $118 million of nonlethal assistance pledged to Ukraine has so far been delivered."

U.S. Hasn't Kept Ukraine Aid Promises - Bloomberg View

"But the Ukrainian government wants more weapons right now, not more diplomacy. Their troops have been hammered by rebel forces, backed by what they claim are up to 9,000 Russian troops that have invaded their country. They want anti-tank weapons, surveillance drones and night-vision equipment from the U.S. to retake the initiative on the battlefield. "



US Debates Course on Ukraine: Deal or Weapons - ABC News

"Ukrainian troops are struggling to counter artillery fire and electronic jamming by pro-Russian militants, who are flying drones to target the Kiev government forces, a top US general said Thursday.
[h=2]Related Stories[/h]

1. Rebels pound Ukrainian troops after peace talks fail Reuters
2. [$$] Heavy Fighting Drains Ukraine Government’s Options and Finances The Wall Street Journal
3. Ukraine says its forces come under attack from Russian troops Reuters
4. Obama weighs sending lethal assistance to Ukraine Associated Press
5. Fierce fighting rages for key Ukraine town AFP

The Ukrainian army's communications are hampered by the electronic warfare carried out by the separatists and they lack equipment and training to thwart artillery barrages, Lieutenant General Ben Hodges told reporters via video link from Germany.
"It is very difficult for Ukrainian forces to be able to operate on radios, telephones and other non-secure means of communications because their opponents have such an exceptional amount of jamming capability," said Hodges, commander of US Army Europe.
"Even if you can acquire where mortar or rockets are coming from, to be able to do something about it is very difficult if you can't communicate."

Ukrainian forces face drones, electronic jamming: US





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[Gladiator]

"French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel proposed a new peace initiative in Ukraine on Thursday, as pressure mounts for Western countries to provide the war-ravaged nation with the capacity to block further offensives from Russian-backed separatists.

Hollande, who described the Ukraine conflict as a "war" said he and Merkel will travel to Moscow on Friday with a proposal "based on the territorial integrity of Ukraine." Further details of the plan weren't provided.

"It will not be said that France and Germany together have not tried everything, undertaken everything, to preserve the peace," Hollande said.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's adviser Yuri Ushakov said his nation was "ready for a constructive conversation" aimed at stabilizing the situation, establishing a dialogue between the Ukrainian government and the rebels and rebuilding economic ties between eastern Ukraine and Kiev."


Ukraine peace plan proposed amid pressure for lethal aid






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[DaveFagan]

"French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel proposed a new peace initiative in Ukraine on Thursday, as pressure mounts for Western countries to provide the war-ravaged nation with the capacity to block further offensives from Russian-backed separatists.

Hollande, who described the Ukraine conflict as a "war" said he and Merkel will travel to Moscow on Friday with a proposal "based on the territorial integrity of Ukraine." Further details of the plan weren't provided.

"It will not be said that France and Germany together have not tried everything, undertaken everything, to preserve the peace," Hollande said.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's adviser Yuri Ushakov said his nation was "ready for a constructive conversation" aimed at stabilizing the situation, establishing a dialogue between the Ukrainian government and the rebels and rebuilding economic ties between eastern Ukraine and Kiev."


Ukraine peace plan proposed amid pressure for lethal aid






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Lots of BS and noise. This all began when Ukraine/Kiev attacked the separatists. The separatists did
not attack Kiev. Civil War! What are we doing there?

 

[joko104]

Lots of BS and noise. This all began when Ukraine/Kiev attacked the separatists. The separatists did
not attack Kiev. Civil War! What are we doing there?

What are Russian troops doing there?

 

[DaveFagan]

What are Russian troops doing there?

Since no photos of Russian have shown up and the Novorussians say the troops are
Chechans, Russians, etc. and all volunteers. When you can prove otherwise, let me
know. There are plenty of US Contactors/mercenaries/Xe etc. Lots of US weapons,
and it couldn't even have been initiated without US money.

 

[braindrain]

Who would have guessed Dave Fagan would be immediately taking the side of and defending Russia. I am sure no one saw that coming.

 

[US Conservative]

Ive been watching this conflict closely for months.

Some observations Ive made:
Minimal air support is available to Ukraine, most of its air assets are grounded or destroyed. Only very small drones are available for recon, etc-the larger ones would be destroyed.
Many of the casualties are from artillery, a counter to this may be needed.
Armor is ubiquitous and both sides are taking losses here. As in Iraq, ATGM's would likely be effective.

 

[Gladiator]

"Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin said on Wednesday that "we have enough Kalashnikovs," and what is needed is sophisticated equipment for "modern warfare" -- including secure radios, jamming equipment for separatist radios, reconnaissance drones and more radar systems to locate mortar, rocket and artillery fire.

"What we need is exactly modern warfare, which we've been lacking all this time," Klimkin told Western journalists in Kiev, adding that the separatists were currently able to "intercept our soldiers talking on mobile phones and then steer their fire."

Ukraine's needs also include training to use sophisticated equipment, Klimkin said: "It's not about buying a couple of more tanks."


- 'Fire-and-forget' -


The US report published Monday by a group of former senior civilian and US military leaders said the West must "bolster deterrence in Ukraine by raising the risks and costs to Russia of any renewed major offensive."

Kiev and its Western allies have accused Russia of pouring columns of heavy armour over the border to bolster the rebels, but Ukraine's stocks of light anti-armour weapons are in an "abysmal condition," said the report by the Atlantic Council, the Brookings Institution and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs."

Which weapons does Kiev need, and what can US provide?


"Anti-government forces in Eastern Ukraine have announced a recruitment campaign, to start next week. Kiev said the move indicates heavy losses suffered by their opponents. The expected recruiting drive, which mirrors Kiev’s own mobilization order by President Petro Poroshenko last month, will be officially launched next week, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, the head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, told a local news station.
“As for mobilization, conscription, we are capable of doing it,” he said, adding that the troops would be involved in a counteroffensive against Kiev forces.
“We plan to form five new brigades, three of them mechanized. We have the basis to train the soldiers. I believe we can do it by springtime,” he added"

?E. Ukrainian rebels announce recruiting drive, plan 5 new brigades ? RT News


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[Gladiator]

"Declining to reveal their identities, the anonymous prospective fighters explained that the Russian Federation’s embassy was prepared to quickly handle all of the necessary paperwork and even help volunteers with expenses.

One man named 'Sergejs' told Panorāma that he has already submitted his documents there and was told that he could travel to Ukraine “right away” if he wished. He also claimed that he was told fighters would earn €1500 per kill.

Russia was also said to be willing to take ex-convicts from Latvia’s prison system should they be inclined to go to Ukraine to fight on their side.

A man named 'Dmitrijs', who says he wants to fight on behalf of Russians in Ukraine explained his feelings in fluent Latvian."

LSM / Russian embassy helping to recruit mercenaries for Ukraine - claim / Eng.lsm.lv

1500 Euro = $1725.00


How do they distinguish between Ukrainian soldiers, Intelligence agents, or civilians?



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[DaveFagan]

"Declining to reveal their identities, the anonymous prospective fighters explained that the Russian Federation’s embassy was prepared to quickly handle all of the necessary paperwork and even help volunteers with expenses.

One man named 'Sergejs' told Panorāma that he has already submitted his documents there and was told that he could travel to Ukraine “right away” if he wished. He also claimed that he was told fighters would earn €1500 per kill.

Russia was also said to be willing to take ex-convicts from Latvia’s prison system should they be inclined to go to Ukraine to fight on their side.

A man named 'Dmitrijs', who says he wants to fight on behalf of Russians in Ukraine explained his feelings in fluent Latvian."

LSM / Russian embassy helping to recruit mercenaries for Ukraine - claim / Eng.lsm.lv

1500 Euro = $1725.00


How do they distinguish between Ukrainian soldiers, Intelligence agents, or civilians?



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How do they distinguish between Ukrainians? Civil War, don't ya' know?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Since no photos of Russian have shown up...

Russian paratroopers captured by Ukrainian forces on August 28, 2014. (Moscow Times)

 

[Rogue Valley]

"Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin said on Wednesday that "we have enough Kalashnikovs," and what is needed is sophisticated equipment for "modern warfare" -- including secure radios, jamming equipment for separatist radios, reconnaissance drones and more radar systems to locate mortar, rocket and artillery fire.

These are the immediate needs. Most of the Ukrainian arsenal (Army/Navy/Air Force) consists of outdated weapons from the Soviet era. Since the Russians designed these weapons, they intimately know weapon limitations and weaknesses. Most critical atm are anti-armor weapons and encrypted communications.

 

[11Bravo]

Obama is arming Syrian rebels, AKA al qaeda, and arming anti-Russian troops.

Is he intentionally trying to get everyone to hate us?

 

[Cryptic]

Since no photos of Russian have shown up and the Novorussians say the troops are
Chechans, Russians, etc. and all volunteers. When you can prove otherwise, let me
know.

All very good points- the presence of Russian soldiers in east Ukraine has not been proven beyond any and all possible doubt (and never will be).

So, any possible US weapons sent to Ukraine will only look remarkably similar to say, Javelin atgms. They wont really be US (as in US-USA) Javelins. For all anybody knows, the Ukrainians might have bought Chinese knock offs -right? Likewise, the Stingers will not be "Stingers", no matter how closely they look like them and perform like them. Maybe the Ukrainians crowd funded a crash missile develpment program- with amazing results?

 

[Oozlefinch]

All very good points- the presence of Russian soldiers in east Ukraine has not been proven beyond any and all possible doubt (and never will be).

Even Russia is admitting it has been sending in forces to try to "stabilize" the region since the early days of the conflict.

President Vladimir Putin said Russian forces had been active in Crimea in order to support local defence forces, the first time he has admitted deployment of Russian troops on the Black Sea peninsula.

"We had to take unavoidable steps so that events did not develop as they are currently developing in southeast Ukraine," Putin said in a televised call-in with the nation. "Of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces."

Putin admits Russian forces were deployed to Crimea | Reuters

So trying to say that there are "no Russian forces" is simply stupid. Even the Russians admit they have been sending in forces. They have even admitted that their forces were captured in the Ukraine.

 

[Cryptic]

Even Russia is admitting it has been sending in forces to try to "stabilize" the region since the early days of the conflict.

That means nothing to "true believers" like Fagan.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Now back to the OP.

I can think of many weapons that would be of assistance. One of the first is to give them some of our HAWK missiles. We still have tons of these in our inventory, even though they have been out of service for over 20 years (and many countries still use them). These are small, able to be pulled with light equipment like a Jeep (RADAR) and 5 ton truck (launcher-reloader).

And here you can see just one boneyard for these systems. The "teardrop" of shipping containers is full of broken HAWK systems and replacement parts. The parking lot next to the white building has multiple launchers, reloaders and RADAR units, the white building is where they still maintain working launchers. I used to pass it every day on my way to work.

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8269292,-106.4329377,511m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.826...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srGVU1h0UqoXy_hPIC2s8TA!2e0

We also have some anti-tank weapons still in inventory but not used, like the M47 Dragon. And there are also older TOW missiles that can be sent to them. Plus some equipment that is starting to clutter some of our storage facilities, like 1st generation HMMWVs that have been removed from combat units and largely sit in logistic depots (especially the older M966-M1025 series).

 

[Cryptic]

Now back to the OP.

I can think of many weapons that would be of assistance. One of the first is to give them some of our HAWK missiles. We still have tons of these in our inventory, even though they have been out of service for over 20 years (and many countries still use them). These are small, able to be pulled with light equipment like a Jeep (RADAR) and 5 ton truck (launcher-reloader).

Older weapons would be good against ISIS, but the Ukrainians need real game changing weapons. Defeats, or stalemates on the battlefied is the only thing Putin respects.
I am thinking:

Javelin atgms
Advanced TOWs
Stinger Missiles
advanced targetting drones, maybe even those with Hellfires
Bradley Fighting Vehicles

 

[Oozlefinch]

Older weapons would be good against ISIS, but the Ukrainians need real game changing weapons. Defeats, or stalemates on the battlefied is the only thing Putin respects.
I am thinking:

Javelin atgms
Advanced TOWs
Stinger Missiles
advanced targetting drones, maybe even those with Hellfires
Bradley Fighting Vehicles

You have to realize, such weapons are often good simply for their deterrence factor alone. Yes, the HAWK is not a very capable system any more. But in sites along the border and near critical locations just having it there will likely cause any air forces to pull away and try to go somewhere else. No pilot is going to ignore those warning tones that a SAM radar has locked onto them.

And we are not seeing many tanks in the Ukraine, and those we are seeing are older models, the original TOW is perfectly fine for them. And shipping them older models that are no longer used other then for training is a good way to both dispose of them and put them to good use. We have seen what groups of HMMWVs and APCs with the TOW can do to armor of the era that Russia is using over there.

DO not expect us to give or sell them anything of an advanced nature, especially drones.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Older weapons would be good against ISIS, but the Ukrainians need real game changing weapons. Defeats, or stalemates on the battlefied is the only thing Putin respects.
I am thinking:

Javelin atgms
Advanced TOWs
Stinger Missiles
advanced targetting drones, maybe even those with Hellfires
Bradley Fighting Vehicles

I don't think you understand.

#1 even though those are older systems for us they're far from obsolete.

America's old is the world's new when it comes to many things military-related.

 

[Cryptic]

I don't think you understand.

#1 even though those are older systems for us they're far from obsolete.

America's old is the world's new when it comes to many things military-related.

I dont think you understand Putin's resolve to win, both immediately in Donbass,and against Ukraine in general. Likewise, I dont think you understand how badly the Ukrainian army needs a decisive victory for morale purposes.

In short, amodest increasevin casualties and lost equipment is not going to deter Putin. Likewise, the ability of the Ukrainian army to withstand fute offensives is not going to be gained by engaging in fighting retreats of any kind.

Rather, Putin's ability to wage offensives as a coencept must be removed as completely as possible (baring commitment of Putins few "Type A" units, armour offensives fail completely. Not, "well they still succeed, with heavier casualties) As such, the Ukrainians need the best we have now.

 

[US Conservative]

I dont think you understand Putin's resolve to win, both immediately in Donbass,and against Ukraine in general. Likewise, I dont think you understand how badly the Ukrainian army needs a decisive victory for morale purposes.

In short, amodest increasevin casualties and lost equipment is not going to deter Putin. Likewise, the ability of the Ukrainian army to withstand fute offensives is not going to be gained by engaging in fighting retreats of any kind.

Rather, Putin's ability to wage offensives as a coencept must be removed as completely as possible (baring commitment of Putins few "Type A" units, armour offensives fail completely. Not, "well they still succeed, with heavier casualties) As such, the Ukrainians need the best we have now.

It would establish that we are serious and will walt any further aggression, but in light of Obama meeting with Merkel our "lion" of a president wont do a thing.

 

[Cryptic]

QUOTE=Oozlefinch;1064294384]

And we are not seeing many tanks in the Ukraine, and those we are seeing are older models, the original TOW is perfectly fine for them.

DO not expect us to give or sell them anything of an advanced nature, especially drones.[/QUOTE]

The Ukrainians already have the equivelant of early TOW models. Giving them more of the same will make Russian advances more costly, Putin has said he is prepared to pay that price.

Rather, the Ukrainians need game changing, or as close as possible to "game channging" weapons to make future Russian advances "de facto" impossible using current Russian tanks in Donbass. This is the only thing Putin will understand.

As for drones, IK think you have a good point. It simply is not going to happen.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I don't think you understand.

#1 even though those are older systems for us they're far from obsolete.

America's old is the world's new when it comes to many things military-related.

To give a comparison, the HAWK missile system first saw service in 1960, the year before the SA-3 Goa system from the Soviet Union (1961).

Now the HAWK was phased out of active duty ADA units in 1994, and completely phased out of the Army Reserve and National Guard by 2002. That is over 12-21 years ago. But the SA-3 is still produced in Russia, and was being manufactured and delivered as recently as 2011. The main difference is that the US is very selective who it delivers it's technology to. Russia (like the Soviet Union) on the other hand will deliver it's equipment to whoever can pay it money.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The Ukrainians already have the equivelant of early TOW models. Giving them more of the same will make Russian advances more costly, Putin has said he is prepared to pay that price.

Rather, the Ukrainians need game changing, or as close as possible to "game channging" weapons to make future Russian advances "de facto" impossible using current Russian tanks in Donbass. This is the only thing Putin will understand.

As for drones, IK think you have a good point. It simply is not going to happen.

Seems to me they said the same thing about Afghanistan.

One thing that Russia should be aware of is that they can't take to many losses, or the mothers back home will start to question why their sons are being lost in trying to conquer part of a nation they have no business trying to conquer. The Ukraine does not really need "game changing" equipment, as much as they simply need help having enough of it to make this invasion and occupation to costly to continue.

When things are looked at logically, when Russian troops are sitting in the Ukraine itself, it becomes hard to deny it is not an attempt to annex another nation that they have no right to annex land from. Much like so many other "invasions" they have conducted in the last 20 years. When their own territory continues to grow and that of their neighbors shrink, eventually it becomes hard to hide form your own population that you are indeed conducting wars of aggression for your own advancement.

Wars of attrition often work to the advantage of the defender, just so long that they make it costly enough to raise the ire of the nation doing the attacking.