Being Jewish (Slightly OT)

Amadeus · Dec 20, 2014

Please correct me where I am wrong:

Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.
Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish.
One can convert to Judaism, but doing so does not make you ethnically Jewish.
Being born of a Judaist mother does not make you Jewish.
Jews can be practice any religion and still be Jewish.

KevinKohler · Dec 20, 2014

Amadeus said:
Please correct me where I am wrong:

Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.

Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish.

One can convert to Judaism, but doing so does not make you ethnically Jewish.

Being born of a Judaist mother does not make you Jewish.

Jews can be practice any religion and still be Jewish.

Based on what I understand, only the last one is wrong.

Amadeus · Dec 20, 2014

KevinKohler said:
Based on what I understand, only the last one is wrong.

Hmm. I thought that since so many Jews are secular that religion is not a negating factor.

Gathomas88 · Dec 20, 2014

Amadeus said:
[*]Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.

That's for damn sure. I work with a girl who is pale as a sheet, with blonde hair and blue eyes.

I wouldn't have even considered the possibility that she was Jewish if she hadn't told me.

RAMOSS · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
Please correct me where I am wrong:

Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.

Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish.

One can convert to Judaism, but doing so does not make you ethnically Jewish.

Being born of a Judaist mother does not make you Jewish.

Jews can be practice any religion and still be Jewish.

Being Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion. Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish, but if a woman joins another religion, and then has a child, that child is not Jewish.

When you convert to Judiasm, by custom, you are considered Jewish. If you are a woman, and you have a child, that child is considered Jewish. ... if you converted before having that child. It might not make you 'ethnically' Jewish, but that is not relevant on how you are considered under Jewish law.

If a woman is Jewish heritiage, but practicing another religion, her children are not considered Jewish

If Jews practice another religion, they might be considered ethnically jewish, but not of the Jewish faith. If they converted, they can come back without going through a conversion process. Any children they had while practicing the other religion are not 'Jewish' under the law, and would have to go through the conversion process. OF course, that would involve worship of God. If there is no God involved in the other religion (such as many types of Buddhism), that does not violate the 10 commandments, 'Tho shall not have any God before me'. Therefore, someone who went straight to atheism, and did not practice another religion could still be Jewish. For that matter, there are many atheists that are quite religious Jews. It gets bogged down and confusing to many Christians.

The term JUBU has been used to reference people who are Jewish Buddhist. There are some that follow both traditions at the same time... confusing as all heck. They are not a majority though.

However, if you practice another religion that concerns itself with God, then, you are no longer considered of the Jewish faith.

Amadeus · Dec 21, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Being Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion. Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish, but if a woman joins another religion, and then has a child, that child is not Jewish.

When you convert to Judiasm, by custom, you are considered Jewish. If you are a woman, and you have a child, that child is considered Jewish. ... if you converted before having that child. It might not make you 'ethnically' Jewish, but that is not relevant on how you are considered under Jewish law.

If a woman is Jewish heritiage, but practicing another religion, her children are not considered Jewish

If Jews practice another religion, they might be considered ethnically jewish, but not of the Jewish faith. If they converted, they can come back without going through a conversion process. Any children they had while practicing the other religion are not 'Jewish' under the law, and would have to go through the conversion process. OF course, that would involve worship of God. If there is no God involved in the other religion (such as many types of Buddhism), that does not violate the 10 commandments, 'Tho shall not have any God before me'. Therefore, someone who went straight to atheism, and did not practice another religion could still be Jewish. For that matter, there are many atheists that are quite religious Jews. It gets bogged down and confusing to many Christians.

The term JUBU has been used to reference people who are Jewish Buddhist. There are some that follow both traditions at the same time... confusing as all heck. They are not a majority though.

However, if you practice another religion that concerns itself with God, then, you are no longer considered of the Jewish faith.

Thanks!

One more question, if you know. Is the 'inherited' religion/ethnicity of being a Jew a remnant of it's Zoroastrian roots? From what I've been told and have read, a child born of a Zoroastrian male is a Zoroastrian. Unlike with being a Jew, however, one cannot convert to Zoroastrianism (which is why the religion is disappearing).

spud_meister · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
Thanks!

One more question, if you know. Is the 'inherited' religion/ethnicity of being a Jew a remnant of it's Zoroastrian roots?

Judaism came about independently of Zoroastrianism.

Amadeus · Dec 21, 2014

spud_meister said:
Judaism came about independently of Zoroastrianism.

My understanding is that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced Judaism, and certainly preceded it.

RAMOSS · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
Thanks!

One more question, if you know. Is the 'inherited' religion/ethnicity of being a Jew a remnant of it's Zoroastrian roots? From what I've been told and have read, a child born of a Zoroastrian male is a Zoroastrian. Unlike with being a Jew, however, one cannot convert to Zoroastrianism (which is why the religion is disappearing).

I don't think so. I think is more tribal roots than imported from other religions... It seems to me that the ancient Hebrews were extremely concerned with blood lines, particularly the male blood line. Then, when it comes to a child's 'jewishness', you can always tell who the mother is, but you might not always know the father.

The 'Jewishness' follows the mother, and the tribe/bloodline association follows the biological father.

RAMOSS · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
My understanding is that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced Judaism, and certainly preceded it.

Not too sure how much influence that Zoroastrianism had on Judaism. I think there was more borrowed from the Phonetician religions. The folk tales have Abraham coming from the City of Ur, and when they discovered and translated the Urgartic bible (clay tablets that were from 1400 bc), there were many passages and saying that made it into the Psalms and proverbs. The various names given to the singular God of Israel was taken from various different Gods in the Phoenician pantheon. .. they just sort of glued them together in their scripture, and just co-opting the names. There could have been influences, or it could have developed independently when it came to Zoroastrianism. However, there is strong evidence of Phonetician influence.. to the copying of some of the scripture, with some mistranslations.

spud_meister · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
My understanding is that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced Judaism, and certainly preceded it.

Influence, yes, roots however, no. Zoroastrianism influenced began in Judaism with the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire to the Mede's around 700BC, and was at its peak with the Achaemenid Empire in 600BC. Zoroastrianism preceded Judaism it by maybe 500 years, but the dates of Zarathustra's reformation are a bit hazy, as are the beginnings of Judaism.

Rainman05 · Dec 21, 2014

spud_meister said:
Influence, yes, roots however, no. Zoroastrianism influenced began in Judaism with the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire to the Mede's around 700BC, and was at its peak with the Achaemenid Empire in 600BC. Zoroastrianism preceded Judaism it by maybe 500 years, but the dates of Zarathustra's reformation are a bit hazy, as are the beginnings of Judaism.

If we are to believe that judaism was coded into books at around 1000BC, give or take 100 years, then it most certainly borrowed elements from both kemetism/akenatism(I've seen it written both ways, dunno why) and zoroasterism since both religions have been coded (so scripture, that's what I mean when I say coded) at least a millenium before that.

spud_meister · Dec 21, 2014

Rainman05 said:
If we are to believe that judaism was coded into books at around 1000BC, give or take 100 years, then it most certainly borrowed elements from both kemetism/akenatism(I've seen it written both ways, dunno why) and zoroasterism since both religions have been coded (so scripture, that's what I mean when I say coded) at least a millenium before that.

Akhenaten's religion was erased from Egyptian society 500 years before Judaism was a thing, and there were several competing empires between Zoroastrian Iran and the fertile crescent.

Judaism is an indigenous religion of the fertile crescent, in all odds it has been influenced by many religions at many points, including those of the Assyrians, Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, Romans, Phoenicians, Hitties and Yahweh knows who else. It's not, however, lost its Semitic origins or being changed beyond recognition from the original religion.

Logicman · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
Please correct me where I am wrong:

Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.

Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish.

One can convert to Judaism, but doing so does not make you ethnically Jewish.

Being born of a Judaist mother does not make you Jewish.

Jews can be practice any religion and still be Jewish.

"...it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:29

sangha · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
Please correct me where I am wrong:

Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.

Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish.

One can convert to Judaism, but doing so does not make you ethnically Jewish.

Being born of a Judaist mother does not make you Jewish.

Jews can be practice any religion and still be Jewish.

My understanding is that all of those depend on who you ask.

For example, some people, including some Jews, consider them to be a race.

I am also not sure what you consider the difference between a "Judaist mother" and a "mother who is a Jew'

Amadeus · Dec 21, 2014

sangha said:
My understanding is that all of those depend on who you ask.

For example, some people, including some Jews, consider them to be a race.

I am also not sure what you consider the difference between a "Judaist mother" and a "mother who is a Jew'

I was unsure if a practicing Judaist was considered ethnically Jewish.

sangha · Dec 21, 2014

Amadeus said:
I was unsure if a practicing Judaist was considered ethnically Jewish.

Ahh, I see

As I understand it, ethnicity is people who share cultural practices so someone practicing Judaism would be ethnically Jewish

RGacky3 · Dec 22, 2014

Amadeus said:
Please correct me where I am wrong:

Jews are an ethnicity, but not a race.

Being born of a Jewish mother makes you Jewish.

One can convert to Judaism, but doing so does not make you ethnically Jewish.

Being born of a Judaist mother does not make you Jewish.

Jews can be practice any religion and still be Jewish.

Depends on the definition of "race"
Yes
Technically it doesn't make you ethnically Jewish, but I don't think anyone makes a distinction after a generation or 2.
The theory is that converts were always Jews and are just coming back to the fold ... so yes.
Not according to religious Jews.

Being Jewish (Slightly OT)

Amadeus

Chews the Cud

KevinKohler

Amadeus

Chews the Cud

Gathomas88

RAMOSS

Amadeus

Chews the Cud

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Amadeus

Chews the Cud

RAMOSS

RAMOSS

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Rainman05

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Logicman

sangha

Amadeus

Chews the Cud

sangha

RGacky3

Being Jewish (Slightly OT)

Chews the Cud

Chews the Cud

Chews the Cud

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Chews the Cud

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Chews the Cud

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency