Basic question about being a "left libertarian"

[Dans La Lune]

I would just like to invite people to watch Youtube clips of Sam Seder dunking on libertarians. It's hours of fun.

 

[OrphanSlug]

What exactly do you mean a 'made up' political position? Left-libertarianism has a rich history going back to at least the early-mid 19th century with anarchist thinkers like Proudhon, Kropotkin, Tolstoy, Warren, etc. One of the most well-known and respected living left academic thinkers is a left-libertarian (Noam Chomsky). How is it any more 'made up' than other political positions?



Except when we observe humans in their natural stateless state, we see something far closer to communism and socialism than we do capitalism.

Communism and socialism have nothing to do with individual liberty, history proven. Speaking of anarchist thinking also has nothing to do with individual liberty, not really.

 

[Geoist]

I would just like to invite people to watch Youtube clips of Sam Seder dunking on libertarians. It's hours of fun.

Right-libertarians are pretty nuts. I'm sure Seder feels like he committed murder after each of those debates.

 

[Geoist]

Communism and socialism have nothing to do with individual liberty, history proven. Speaking of anarchist thinking also has nothing to do with individual liberty, not really.

Much like the right-wingers on this thread you are stuck on the statist forms of communism and socialism. That is not what left-libertarians support. Please do some research first.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Much like the right-wingers on this thread you are stuck on the statist forms of communism and socialism. That is not what left-libertarians support. Please do some research first.

Rather, I am “stuck” on practical implications of these ideas in actual practice across actual history. I’ll leave the pie in the sky thinking to you guys entirely absent of doing any research.

 

[Geoist]

Rather, I am “stuck” on practical implications of these ideas in actual practice across actual history. I’ll leave the pie in the sky thinking to you guys entirely absent of doing any research.

I provided several historical examples in another thread and I'll repost them here:

Prehistoric communities
Hunter-gatherer societies
The Pythagorean community
Modern communes like Twin Oaks
Early Christians
Revolutionary Catalonia
Rojava

 

[OrphanSlug]

I provided several historical examples in another thread and I'll repost them here:

Prehistoric communities
Hunter-gatherer societies
The Pythagorean community
Modern communes like Twin Oaks
Early Christians
Revolutionary Catalonia
Rojava

None of which are a practical application of the idea, and several you listed were not really the ideology you describe but rather something else.

Again more nonsense made up by those making something into something it was not.

BTW, all of those in practical application were not examples of individual liberty. Not a one of them.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I would just like to invite people to watch Youtube clips of Sam Seder dunking on libertarians. It's hours of fun.

That's hilarious.

 

[Geoist]

None of which are a practical application of the idea, and several you listed were not really the ideology you describe but rather something else.

Do explain how my examples are not 'practical applications of the idea' and, if they were something else, explain what they were instead.

For someone who just admitted he knew nothing of the ideology you seem quite confident in knowing what is or isn't a left-libertarian society.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Do explain how my examples are not 'practical applications of the idea' and, if they were something else, explain what they were instead.

For someone who just admitted he knew nothing of the ideology you seem quite confident in knowing what is or isn't a left-libertarian society.

I already dId so.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Right-libertarians are pretty nuts. I'm sure Seder feels like he committed murder after each of those debates.

I would say that right-wing libertarians, which is the dominant strain, ruin the term almost completely. And I get that socialism has its stigmas. I'd welcome left-libertarians to join our ranks.

Just know that when I slam libertarianism, I'm aiming at the ~95%, not your brand.

 

[Geoist]

I already dId so.

No, you did not. You made a statement without backing it up with evidence.

 

[OrphanSlug]

No, you did not. You made a statement without backing it up with evidence.

You claiming you have evidence?

 

[NatMorton]

I am not opposed to private possession of land but with the condition of there being a ground rent that is returned to the community. I prefer it returned as a citizen dividend. I see it as the fairest way to compensate the rest of society for denying access to what nature provides.

How is this any different than our concept of land ownership today with its system of property taxes?

 

[NatMorton]

You can still try and run a traditional-style business but it may be difficult to scale up in a co-op-friendly society.

What would stop it from scaling? If the business is initially successful, it will begin to accumulate the capital needed to expand. This week I have two wage earning employees that build ten chairs. Two years from now it’s 100 carpenters building 500 chairs a week.

And I'd add further, where and when have cooperative companies out competed traditional, privately held companies to a point where privately held companies were kept at bay? Economic history would suggest the reverse is far more likely.

(And FWIW, nearly a decade of my career was spent working at a cooperatively owned company.)

 

[NatMorton]

Except when we observe humans in their natural stateless state, we see something far closer to communism and socialism than we do capitalism.

When we see humans in that 'natural stateless state' we also see double-digit infant mortality rates and adult lives that are nasty, brutish, and short.

No thanks. I'll take modern dentistry and 14 brands of sugary breakfast cereal in Aisle 5, please.

 

[NatMorton]

I provided several historical examples in another thread and I'll repost them here:

Prehistoric communities
Hunter-gatherer societies
The Pythagorean community
Modern communes like Twin Oaks
Early Christians
Revolutionary Catalonia
Rojava

It's interesting you asserted the economic model I cited wouldn't scale in the face of cooperatives. Did any of the cooperative community models you cited here scale?

 

[nucky9]

What would stop it from scaling? If the business is initially successful, it will begin to accumulate the capital needed to expand. This week I have two wage earning employees that build ten chairs. Two years from now it’s 100 carpenters building 500 chairs a week.

What if the chair-maker becomes so successful, they are able to buy every square inch of land in the world?

What you describe is the ideal of capitalism, where hard work leads to increased productivity, which leads to more capital, which leads to more productivity etc. However, it doesn't work like that - money leads to more money, regardless of any contribution back to society.

Consider: Elon Musk is worth ~$163B, mostly through Tesla I would assume (please correct me if I am wrong). Tesla's profit margin is ~20% per car and Tesla has sold something like 1 million cars at an average price of maybe $80,000 (hard to find an exact number for this, but it is probably lower)? So, that's 16K/car * 1M cars = 16B in profit. So, even though over the lifetime of the company, Tesla has only generated 16B in profit (which even isn't close to being true in reality), somehow Musk has gained $163B in personal wealth "as a simple craftsmen".

Clearly, something isn't quite working out in the innocent way you described above. And this is compounded by the way inheritance works. Whether or not you believe Elon has earned his money in its entirety, what justification is there that his children, who have contributed no value, be able to purchase significant proportions of the means of production, while a child of the same age born to a different family should live in poverty?

It is one of those situations where there clearly is a line between the societal good of having property rights, and the societal evil of very few individuals having an outsized amount of property. I can't define it for you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[OscarLevant]

Except that’s not what neoliberalism is.

What is your definition?

 

[Surrealistik]

Not sure how much credibility to invest with that test but it's at least in the ballpark; was a fun distraction:

 

[Geoist]

It's interesting you asserted the economic model I cited wouldn't scale in the face of cooperatives. Did any of the cooperative community models you cited here scale?

Why would they need to scale? Left-anarchism is inherently decentralized.

 

[Geoist]

You claiming you have evidence?

You made the claim the examples are not 'practical applications of the idea.' I'd like you to actually back up that statement with evidence and reasoning. THAT is on you as you made the claim.

 

[Geoist]

How is this any different than our concept of land ownership today with its system of property taxes?

Our current property taxes target improvements such as homes and other buildings. LVT taxes the value of the land minus the improvements.

 

[OrphanSlug]

You made the claim the examples are not 'practical applications of the idea.' I'd like you to actually back up that statement with evidence and reasoning. THAT is on you as you made the claim.

Just so I am clear, you offered the below list (from some other thread) with no evidence or reasoning. I reject that and I have to come up with the evidence and reasoning that you never offered?

Prehistoric communities
Hunter-gatherer societies
The Pythagorean community
Modern communes like Twin Oaks
Early Christians
Revolutionary Catalonia
Rojava

 

[Geoist]

What would stop it from scaling? If the business is initially successful, it will begin to accumulate the capital needed to expand. This week I have two wage earning employees that build ten chairs. Two years from now it’s 100 carpenters building 500 chairs a week.

And I'd add further, where and when have cooperative companies out competed traditional, privately held companies to a point where privately held companies were kept at bay? Economic history would suggest the reverse is far more likely.

(And FWIW, nearly a decade of my career was spent working at a cooperatively owned company.)

Imagine starting a traditional business in a co-op friendly society and telling a potential employee they don't get to share ownership, get no voting rights, have no say in work environment, etc.