Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:

The court agrees with you but I still do not. Prior to any attempted arrest there should be no resisting of that yet to occur (arrest) event. If one simply sees a police officer and then changes direction then that evasive action alone should not be probable cause or even reasonable suspicion to make an arrest, traffic stop or to conduct a search.

Court: Just Running from the Police is a Crime | The Jacksonville Observer

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Ok, we can disagree that's fine....But until the courts reverse the overwhelming myriad of rulings saying that evading, and resisting is unlawful then the law is on my side as you already stated.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:

No matter how the injury occurred, what we do know is the guy requested medical attention multiple times and was ignored, showed up in medical crisis, and it still took a half hour to call the ambulance to get him to an ER. There can be no one else at fault for ignoring his pleas for medical attention than the people who had him in custody.

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Do you know how often that happens? People fake seizures, fake passing out, and many other things. So. When someone starts screaming that they are having a seizure...beg for medical assistance...is that what should happen? They do everything they can to avoid jail.

The FACT is that you don't have enough evidence of misconduct at all. That is one possible outcome. Circumstances can change the "at fault" party.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

By just addressing the raw number of arrests is rather misleading....You'd have to break it down into convictions.

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That's well reflected in the World Number 1 ranking for incarcerations per capita. What other information do you need?

I see, so the person, NOT showing up to court, refusing to pay his fine, and digging himself deeper with every step has NO responsibility when he is ultimately arrested for his ignorance eh? So, should one be able to just ignore the law, or fines if they feel like they can't pay them? Should they just be able to ignore orders to appear in court? You realize you are advocating a break down of the system right? Oh, and your comparison to France is absurd. We have 5 times the population of France.

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But the police are in many places - Missouri is one example, lower Alabama is another - as revenue agents not police. And the reason many don't show up to court is they're poor and can't pay the fine, which IS dumb. But for the towns and the police departments, the cascading fines and penalties is a desirable FEATURE of the system - it's how they pay the bills instead of taxes, the point of the system is to levy punitive fines for petty offenses.

In my area, you have a broken tail light, you might get a ticket, you show up with work order from the repair shop, ticket dismissed. People all the time get caught with guns going through security at the airport - they're not arrested. The guns and knives are seized and they're sent on their way to their meeting in Boston, but they're not poor urban residents, they're business people who make the economy hum and so there's a different standard for them.

And the stats are per capita, not in total. U.S. is 707/100,000 (not including ICE detentions, native Americans facilities, military facilities, juvenile facilities or those operated by the Marshall service.

France is 103/100k. Germany 78. Spain 144. Italy 100. Cuba!! 510. Good job USA beating Cuba!

Yep, that's a problem. If the person under arrest has a medical issue, he or she should be treated....The police entrusted with the detention, and transport of that individual should be accountable. But, I don't know what injecting the crime, jail time, and fine into that has to do with anything....The standard should apply to all.

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It has to do with the fact the cops disregarded the pleas of a guy whose crime was petty at best. What the community sees is a person detained for running, arrested for having a knife, then allowed to die. If he's a murderer that might be more understandable to treat the person like vermin, but he was a petty criminal.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

stonewall50 said:

Do you know how often that happens? People fake seizures, fake passing out, and many other things. So. When someone starts screaming that they are having a seizure...beg for medical assistance...is that what should happen? They do everything they can to avoid jail.

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Yes, someone begging for medical attention should get medical attention. This person is dead. I guess in your world view that's the breaks. And you wonder why the community doesn't respect the police..... Incredible.

The FACT is that you don't have enough evidence of misconduct at all. That is one possible outcome. Circumstances can change the "at fault" party.

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The FACT is he was in their custody, they ignored his pleas for medical assistance and he's dead.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:

OK, forget China. What's the mitigating stat for France, who somehow runs a developed country with 1/7th the number incarcerated? We're five times the UK. Look at the stats for any country on the planet. We're still #1! USA! USA! USA! USA!

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We house many foreign nationals in our prisons

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:

We house many foreign nationals in our prisons

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The numbers don't include ICE detentions.

Or juvenile detentions, or facilities operated by the Marshall service, the military, or on reservations.

You can try all day long and your efforts won't polish that turd even a little bit.

More fun stats from this link:

According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2011 – about 0.94% of adults in the U.S. resident population.[8] Additionally, 4,814,200 adults at year-end 2011 were on probation or on parole.[12] In total, 6,977,700 adults were under correctional supervision (probation, parole, jail, or prison) in 2011 – about 2.9% of adults in the U.S. resident population.[12]

In addition, there were 70,792 juveniles in juvenile detention in 2010.[13]

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Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:

The numbers don't include ICE detentions.

Or juvenile detentions, or facilities operated by the Marshall service, the military, or on reservations.

You can try all day long and your efforts won't polish that turd even a little bit.

More fun stats from this link:

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Would you rather they work in hard labor camps or be executed? I personally know people who can't keep their nose clean and have been in trouble multiple times

Apparently what ever punishment they received can't fix stupid.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

stonewall50 said:

EXACTLY! So if you RUN...your chance of injury goes up. Do you expect the police NOT to put someone down who runs? It isn't tag. My entire point here is that injury during the scuffle cannot be ruled out AND that would be justified.

There is not enough evidence released to the public for us to know who is at fault.

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The chance of you injuring yourself should go up, the chance of law enforcement injuring or killing you should stay the same.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:

Yes, someone begging for medical attention should get medical attention. This person is dead. I guess in your world view that's the breaks. And you wonder why the community doesn't respect the police..... Incredible.

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1) You were not there. Nor do you know the circumstances. There is also a jail nurse usually. If he is in transit...and the injuries were minor in appearance..."begging" for medical attention isn't really important.

Add in that people frequently fake injuries...you are asking police to spend more time because every suspect is going to demand medical attention upon being arrested because they don't want to go to jail.

2) You have no ****ing clue what my position is. Don't pretend too. My position is that justice must be served. And I refuse to allow moron arm chair quarterbacks assign guilt before those morons have all the evidence.

The FACT is he was in their custody, they ignored his pleas for medical assistance and he's dead.

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No.

Fact 1) He was in custody
2) He requested medical assistance
3) He died.

That is the only evidence you have. You are assigning blame to one group before you have all the facts. Multiple conclusions can be drawn from this data. You just want to ignore it because it is all about trashing police. Not Justice.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Unrepresented said:

The chance of you injuring yourself should go up, the chance of law enforcement injuring or killing you should stay the same.

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No. Because you can be tackled and so on. Any time the use of force spectrum includes hands on like that...your RISK should go up. You can't exchange expect 0 injuries from a suspect being tackled. You ought to know that. Please tell me you aren't trying to skew reality to support a specific conclusion.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:

Would you rather they work in hard labor camps or be executed? I personally know people who can't keep their nose clean and have been in trouble multiple times

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Holy straw man, Batman!!

Sure, we all know people like that. The question is what we accomplish by making felons out of maybe 10% of the population, the vast majority for non-violent crimes, and the vast majority of those drug offenses. Seems like there might be better options for our money than spending perhaps $30,000 a head per year in jail.

And somehow the entire rest of the industrialized world maintains social stability and order with 1/5th or less the number of people in jails...

Apparently what ever punishment they received can't fix stupid.

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It's a mystery why you said you had a problem with BS arrests. Clearly that's not the case.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

stonewall50 said:

1) You were not there. Nor do you know the circumstances. There is also a jail nurse usually. If he is in transit...and the injuries were minor in appearance..."begging" for medical attention isn't really important.

Add in that people frequently fake injuries...you are asking police to spend more time because every suspect is going to demand medical attention upon being arrested because they don't want to go to jail.

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I'm not sure what the appropriate standard should be if you're OK with ignoring pleas for medical attention.

2) You have no ****ing clue what my position is. Don't pretend too. My position is that justice must be served. And I refuse to allow moron arm chair quarterbacks assign guilt before those morons have all the evidence.

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Well, your position is the guy pleaded for medical care, was ignored and died, and you don't see any problem with his treatment during custody because at other times prisoners fake medical issues.

And this 'moron' knows this guy suffered a fractured spinal cord, was denied medical care until he fell into a coma, it still took a half hour for them to call the ambulance, and he died, and all six that dealt with him are suspended. There seems to be a serious problem at some point in the process. And it's too bad but when the police take physical custody of someone for a minor or major crime, they become responsible for the care of that individual. He no longer had options - the police took his options away. It's reasonable to hold them responsible and accountable for deaths that occur at that point.

Fact 1) He was in custody
2) He [repeatedly] requested medical assistance [which was repeatedly denied until he fell into a coma]
3) He died.

That is the only evidence you have. You are assigning blame to one group before you have all the facts. Multiple conclusions can be drawn from this data. You just want to ignore it because it is all about trashing police. Not Justice.

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I added some pertinent facts in []'s.

It's not about trashing "police" but about the police actions in this case. There is a substantial difference.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

JasperL said:

I'm not sure what the appropriate standard should be if you're OK with ignoring pleas for medical attention.

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He should be looked over at the jail unless there is an obvious medical condition that is visible upon arrest.

Well, your position

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I have not stated a position. The rest of what you say will be a strawman. I am asking you to please not try to assume my position.

is the guy pleaded for medical care, was ignored and died, and you don't see any problem with his treatment during custody because at other times prisoners fake medical issues

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That is a potential conclusion.. Not the only one.

And this 'moron' knows this guy suffered a fractured spinal cord, was denied medical care until he fell into a coma, it still took a half hour for them to call the ambulance, and he died, and all six that dealt with him are suspended.

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PAID leave. That is indicative of nothing. They are reviewing the case. You are drawing a conclusion from circumstantial evidence.

There seems to be a serious problem at some point in the process. And it's too bad but when the police take physical custody of someone for a minor or major crime, they become responsible for the care of that individual. He no longer had options - the police took his options away. It's reasonable to hold them responsible and accountable for deaths that occur at that point.

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I don't disagree. BUT...and this is a HUGE but...was there reason to suspect a spinal injury? Was he moving? Complaining of a headache? Confusion? There are clear signs of spinal injuries. Anyone with first aid knowledge knows this.

You are trying to make a criminal case of what is more likely a civil case. Additionally you are ignoring some very reasonable and logical conclusions that can be drawn from the only available evidence.

It's not about trashing "police" but about the police actions in this case. There is a substantial difference.

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The "police actions" could have been reasonable. There is not enough evidence to draw any solid conclusion at this point. Any claim otherwise is a lie.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

Not at all, but it just seems that people have bi passed that in favor of blaming the police without having all the facts...I mean, really? There are people in here advocating just letting the perp go if they run....Is that really conducive to getting in front of a court, or jury?

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Let him go? Sure, if he or she isnt an immediate danger to the public and you know where to find him or her. Like the man in SC shot in the back. The cop had his car and his address. The man want not a violent offender, he struggled to get away and ran.

Otherwise you chase them and restrain them like you have been trained. Too scared or dont want to risk injury? Wait for your buddies, get more training, or get another job.

It depends on the circumstances but SCOTUS and other courts have ruled on the standards for shooting a fleeing suspect. Cops are bound by that. I would give them the benefit of the doubt in many situations when we dont know the details but some cases are pretty clear cut that it was abuse of authority, and even murder.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Peter King said:

Your best bet is just give up when police officers want to arrest you, if you tire them out with a long chase and multiple officers are needed you risk a beat down, there shouldn't be a beat down but you risk it anyway if you do things that make that more likely to happen (resisting, leading them on a foot chase, trying to hit officers, etc.).

Better to not trust and be arrested than resist arrest and get punished twice (once by the cops who beat you and once by the judge who orders you to pay for the removal of your own blood from their uniforms and then gives you extra months/years for resisting arrest).

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Of course. It's stupid to resist arrest, you are going to lose 99.9% of the time. You prove nothing by resisting....the cops dont give a crap or they wouldnt have arrested you in the first place. Sure they can be wrong but the place to prove it is at the police station, hopefully, or later in court. And report every single bit of abuse and unnecessary force. The more intelligent and articulate you are about it, the more legitimacy your claim will have, as will a clean record.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

ttwtt78640 said:

Really? Your advice is to simply let police search you for being in your own neighborhood (a known drug sales area)? The arrest, as far as I can tell, was for possession of a pocket knife - why is that not a 2A and 4A violation? If during the "arrest process" you can be seriously injured or killed then it would seem foolish not to avoid (resist?) that arrest - not much has been reported about the fate of the other man (reported to be with/near him at the time) also seen running away from police.

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Of course you cooperate. What are you going to do, right then and there? You will lose. You will suffer more, and you'll still be dragged to the police station.

You think that is a platform for your objections? Please, it's reactive ego, not constructive.

The time and place for seeing any justice at all is later, reporting it and if necessary, even taking it to the media.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

WCH said:

I see them splatter all over the screen as you do.

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And I think we need more "Christian" cops....this is such a heart-warming representation of that religion.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

Maybe they were acting suspiciously, maybe they saw the cops and started to run away, that is enough for a chase to ensue. As for why he ended up dead is for the investigation to determine.

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It is? And if it is, with nothing more than that, what is the justification for force if the "suspects" dont just stand there when caught? The chase is 'the cops escalating' the situation, the people running...who may have done nothing wrong...or maybe have unpaid parking tickets or something that made them want to avoid the cops...KNOW the cops will use physical force once they're caught. But the cops are the ones escalating the situation into something more than people that just want to avoid the cops...and THAT is not illegal.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

Let him go? Sure, if he or she isnt an immediate danger to the public and you know where to find him or her. Like the man in SC shot in the back. The cop had his car and his address. The man want not a violent offender, he struggled to get away and ran.

Otherwise you chase them and restrain them like you have been trained. Too scared or dont want to risk injury? Wait for your buddies, get more training, or get another job.

It depends on the circumstances but SCOTUS and other courts have ruled on the standards for shooting a fleeing suspect. Cops are bound by that. I would give them the benefit of the doubt in many situations when we dont know the details but some cases are pretty clear cut that it was abuse of authority, and even murder.

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But we aren't talking about being shot in this thread, or did I miss that in the op?

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

It is? And if it is, with nothing more than that, what is the justification for force if the "suspects" dont just stand there when caught? The chase is 'the cops escalating' the situation, the people running...who may have done nothing wrong...or maybe have unpaid parking tickets or something that made them want to avoid the cops...KNOW the cops will use physical force once they're caught. But the cops are the ones escalating the situation into something more than people that just want to avoid the cops...and THAT is not illegal.

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Courts disagree with you.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

But we aren't talking about being shot in this thread, or did I miss that in the op?

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The conversation has pretty much expanded to police, resisting arrest, etc.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

It is? And if it is, with nothing more than that, what is the justification for force if the "suspects" dont just stand there when caught? The chase is 'the cops escalating' the situation, the people running...who may have done nothing wrong...or maybe have unpaid parking tickets or something that made them want to avoid the cops...KNOW the cops will use physical force once they're caught. But the cops are the ones escalating the situation into something more than people that just want to avoid the cops...and THAT is not illegal.

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It may not be illegal to avoid, but it does give probable cause.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

Courts disagree with you.

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Not necessarily. They have to provide some type of probable cause...like really being able to define that 'suspicious activity.'

Charges of resisting arrest if there was no viable basis for that police chase would likely not hold up in court.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

Not necessarily. They have to provide some type of probable cause...like really being able to define that 'suspicious activity.'

Charges of resisting arrest if there was no viable basis for that police chase would likely not hold up in court.

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We disagree. Courts give police wide latitude when it comes to the beat cop v. street punk in arraignment.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

We disagree. Courts give police wide latitude when it comes to the beat cop v. street punk in arraignment.

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We do disagree and I said nothing about 'street punks.' That seems to assume a previous record.