Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Montecresto said:

The knife was found after they caught him, No probable cause mr apologist.

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1. I provide accurate information, which is not being an apologist.
Saying such is just an indication of your own bias.

2. Your reply reveals that you do not know what you are talking about and haven't paid attention to the information provided.

It doesn't matter that is came after.

Lets walk through this. Again!

They had "reasonable suspicion" to give chase and detain.
They are allowed to search while he was detained.

That search produced an illegal weapon.
That weapon gave them "probable cause" to arrest. Period.


Even if the weapon hadn't been illegal (which it is) and they were simply mistaken in believing it to be, that mistake is still a good faith belief that it violated the law and still provided the necessary probable cause to arrest. Probable cause can still be based on a mistaken belief.
Do you or do you not understand this?

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KLATTU said:

REal lawyer takes incompetent DA to the woodshed.
Freddie Gray | Unlawful Arrest | Probable Cause

This has the smell of that Duke lacrosee case where the DA got intimidated by the nitwit minority community,

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Fmr Deputy Baltimore State’s Atty: Mosby’s Police Charges ‘Incompetent at Best’

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Lursa​;1064599345 said:

None of that is relevant to probable cause since I have not read anywhere that the police were aware of the knife before they chose to chase and detain him. Unless they did know of it?

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:doh
They didn't need to be aware of the knife prior to giving chase.
They had reasonable suspicion after seeing what appeared to be a drug transaction.

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Paperview said:

Rough ride lawsuits echo Freddie Gray case - CNN.com

"They would slam on their brakes like every thousand feet, and to make sure that we slammed into something in the back," he said, recalling the night in 2012 that Baltimore police showed up at his house after a noise complaint.

The situation escalated quickly, according to court documents, and he and his wife, Chrissy Abbott, ended up on the ground, cuffed, headed for the back of a police wagon just like the one that transported Freddie Gray before he died.


"They throw you in and it's dark in there and so you can't really see anything," he said. "...I would hear Chrissy from the other side, slamming into the wall and just crying out."
She was on the other side of a metal partition.


"Every time he broke or hit on the brakes, I would slam forward and then he'd start driving again, slam back the other way," Abbott said. "I felt less than human, the way they treated you."

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:doh
And?
Totally irrelevant to this van ride, as there is no evidence that it was a "rough/nickle ride". Only evidence of the opposite. A smooth ride.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

The reason you gave for not being belted in is freedom to escape an emergency. You cite the handcuffs as additional reason for NOT being belted in, since a person wouldn't be able to free themselves from the seatbelt in case if an emergency.

This line of thought completely ignored the fact of this person being locked in the back of a van, unable to escape an emergency anyway.

Surely, you see the pointless nature of that argument, right?

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Like I said, it's a double whammy. The detainee would have a better chance of escape from a fire for instance if not belted in.

Blemonds said:

Like I said, it's a double whammy. The detainee would have a better chance of escape from a fire for instance if not belted in.

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You really think not being handcuffed makes them able to escape a locked police transport vehicle? That's what you're going with?

Gonzo Rodeo said:

You really think not being handcuffed makes them able to escape a locked police transport vehicle? That's what you're going with?

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I don't recall saying anything about handcuffs

Blemonds said:

I don't recall saying anything about handcuffs

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Post #375. Thanks for playing.

Blemonds said:

Frankly speaking, if I was riding in the back of a van with my hands cuffed behind my back, I would not want to be buckled in. If there is an emergency, I would be unable to unbuckle myself

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Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

There are other rulings and many circumstances re: probable cause. There's a very good chance that that one will not play when all circumstances are examined in court. It's certainly not the only ruling on the legitimacy of probable cause. It's one of the more 'flexible' ones due to so many variables and often manipulated.

Again, the case will get very intense legal scrutiny because of the publicity.

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Oh, I see...you think the trials will stay in the Baltimore venue...unlikely. No justice would be seeved by that.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Excon said:

1. I provide accurate information, which is not being an apologist.
Saying such is just an indication of your own bias.

2. Your reply reveals that you do not know what you are talking about and haven't paid attention to the information provided.

It doesn't matter that is came after.

Lets walk through this. Again!

They had "reasonable suspicion" to give chase and detain.
They are allowed to search while he was detained.

That search produced an illegal weapon.
That weapon gave them "probable cause" to arrest. Period.


Even if the weapon hadn't been illegal (which it is) and they were simply mistaken in believing it to be, that mistake is still a good faith belief that it violated the law and still provided the necessary probable cause to arrest. Probable cause can still be based on a mistaken belief.
Do you or do you not understand this?

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Fmr Deputy Baltimore State’s Atty: Mosby’s Police Charges ‘Incompetent at Best’

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:doh
They didn't need to be aware of the knife prior to giving chase.
They had reasonable suspicion after seeing what appeared to be a drug transaction.

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:doh
And?
Totally irrelevant to this van ride, as there is no evidence that it was a "rough/nickle ride". Only evidence of the opposite. A smooth ride.

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That video is a great example of how a biased media tries to drive a narrative. Notice when the female CNN anchor tries to jump in on this woman, her question was designed to insinuate racism, and she had to answer it not once, but twice.

A competant system would immediately over ride Mosby, and recuse her from this case to start over.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

Post #375. Thanks for playing.

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Let me highlight the point we were discussing

Blemonds said:

Frankly speaking, if I was riding in the back of a van with my hands cuffed behind my back, I would not want to be buckled in. If there is an emergency, I would be unable to unbuckle myself

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Funny how your side has to make stuff up in almost every discussion

Blemonds said:

Let me highlight the point we were discussing



Funny how your side has to make stuff up in almost every discussion

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First of all, I don't have "a side". I didn't make anything up, either. I have only quoted you.

Secondly, the seatbelt is ancillary to escape if a person is locked in a cage.. Tell me, how does a person escape a fire, for example, if they are are locked in a cage?

The seatbelt is useful for restraining a person against the normal violence of traffic; it does not make someone less able to escape a locked cage, no more than the cage itself already inhibits escape.

Tell me... Is it possible to make a dead person "more dead" than they already are? Because I contend that it is impossible to make someone less able to escape if they are already unable to escape.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

First of all, I don't have "a side". I didn't make anything up, either. I have only quoted you.

Secondly, the seatbelt is ancillary to escape if a person is locked in a cage.. Tell me, how does a person escape a fire, for example, if they are are locked in a cage?

The seatbelt is useful for restraining a person against the normal violence of traffic; it does not make someone less able to escape a locked cage, no more than the cage itself already inhibits escape.

Tell me... Is it possible to make a dead person "more dead" than they already are? Because I contend that it is impossible to make someone less able to escape if they are already unable to escape.

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All I said was that if it were me, I would not want to be belted in if I was cuffed. You took offense to that and tried to make it about being cuffed (making stuff up) when it was about being belted in.

Blemonds said:

All I said was that if it were me, I would not want to be belted in if I was cuffed. You took offense to that and tried to make it about being cuffed (making stuff up) when it was about being belted in.

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And if it were me and I was handcuffed, with no way to prop myself up, break a fall, or support myself, I would hope I was belted in.

When I pointed this out, you intoned that you would want freedom to be able to escape some nebulous concept of an emergency....from a locked cage that you already can't escape from.

Face it, it just wasn't a very well thought out point. Its ok. We all do it from time to time.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

j-mac said:

Oh, I see...you think the trials will stay in the Baltimore venue...unlikely. No justice would be seeved by that.

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No, not at all. Do you live in Baltimore? I dont. And yet we both seem interested in the outcome and are part of the public that is kept in mind.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

No, not at all. Do you live in Baltimore? I dont. And yet we both seem interested in the outcome and are part of the public that is kept in mind.

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I lived in the Balto area for twenty years, I have a pretty good idea what goes on there.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

And if it were me and I was handcuffed, with no way to prop myself up, break a fall, or support myself, I would hope I was belted in.

When I pointed this out, you intoned that you would want freedom to be able to escape some nebulous concept of an emergency....from a locked cage that you already can't escape from.

Face it, it just wasn't a very well thought out point. Its ok. We all do it from time to time.

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You're free to believe that, but I would still prefer not to be belted in giving myself a far better chance in the event of an emergency

Excon said:

Sources: Baltimore police, State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby.​

:lamo:lamo:lamo
Unquoted and actually unsourced.
And then we have the fact that Mosby is an established liar.


This bit about he was unresponsive does not mean he was unable to respond like he was at the final stop.
This stop referenced that he was helped to get on the bench, not forcible put on the bench. You do understand what helped means right? That's an indication that he was conscious.

And as we know the witness says he was banging his head and thrashing about, so we know he was conscious.
And as already pointed out asking for an inhaler is faking when he is obvious breathing fine and screaming.

Your "apparently needs medical attention because of breathing" argument fails.
What they called for was an ambulance at that stop was for a believed broken arm.
But then decided to take him to the station.

For more accuracy, try this out.
Sourced through video reports.

Freddie Gray Timeline

You keep ignoring that self inflicted is the evidence.
We have already been told that that is what this sounded like to the witness.
And a person thrashing around and banging their head during a smooth ride speaks to self infliction as well.

To show otherwise you are going to have to show, by evidence, that it was not self inflicted.

And again. Thrashing and banging his head during a smooth ride speaks to his injuries being from his own actions and thus self inflicted.

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As I said before, there were only two occasions where Freddie Gray's neck injury could have been self-inflicted per the established timeline:

1) The initial 7 minutes between 8:39 and 8:46 prior to being shackled; and,

2) The 25 minutes from 8:39 - 9:24 en route to the police precinct.

Considering that there was no witnesses to hear him banging his head against the wall during the initial 7 minutes, I think it's safe to say the alleged head banging had to have taken place between 8:59 and 9:24.

According to the timeline (and the preliminary investigation report):

TIME UNKNOWN (after 8:59) — Van makes fourth stop. Goodson and Porter respond to a request for additional units and are met by Nero, Miller, Porter and Rice. Gray is unresponsive on the floor. Sgt. Alicia White, who is investigating complaints related to Gray's arrest, speaks to the back of Gray's head, but he doesn't respond. A second prisoner is loaded into the wagon. Gray is no longer breathing.

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Granted, Gray was able to speak to police on the scene at the third stop reported at 8:59 and it's at this point where Gray would have been able to bang his head against the wall AND be heard/observed by Donte Allen, the 2nd detainee. But by the fourth stop (which doesn't have a time stamp), he's found to be "unresponsive on the floor" and is "no longer breathing". How long was it between the time Donte Allen was picked up and the police found Gray to be unresponsive on the floor and not breathing? That's the question that needs to be answered. Furthermore, if Gray's neck injury did take place at 8:54 per the timeline - at least 5 minutes before the 4th stop - it's highly unlikely he'd be able to bang his head against the wall at all at this point.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out because I don't think this case is as cut-and-dry as some folks believe. There are questions that need to be answered. If it turns out that Gray did injure himself because he was throwing a hissy fit in the back of the van, then Baltimore, MD and the nation gets to close the book on another "thug" who in the minds of many "got what he deserved" and those who believed he was wrong from the beginning will get to say, "See, I told you it was his own damned fault". But if it turns out to be negligence on the part of the Baltimore PD, maybe this case will prompt them to amend their detainee security and transport safety procedures (again, as necessary).

With that, I'm out.

Sounds like the case against the cops is beginning to disintegrate. Reports are coming out that an investigation of the knife has revealed that it was indeed illegal, making the arrest illegal. The cops did indeed attempt to get medical help for Gray but there was some kind of confusion. The charges against the driver are being revealed to be completely baseless and it appears that the ME was pressured into calling the death a homicide. Store owners in Baltimore need t start boarding up their doors and windows

Ouch. The state prosecutor hired an independent investigator to investigate the alleged crime. Turns out the investigator was a former police officer who was stripped of his command for bungling and investigation and not too long ago was tased by Baltimore police officers for some type of disturbing behavior on his part

Blemonds said:

You're free to believe that, but I would still prefer not to be belted in giving myself a far better chance in the event of an emergency

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A far better chance of what? Getting out of the locked cage?

No. The idea that someone is "safer" in the back of a vehicle without being buckled in - especially without the use of one's hands - is ludicrous. Attempting to remove blame from the officers like this is just dishonest and cruel.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

A far better chance of what? Getting out of the locked cage?

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Yes

No. The idea that someone is "safer" in the back of a vehicle without being buckled in - especially without the use of one's hands - is ludicrous. Attempting to remove blame from the officers like this is just dishonest and cruel.

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I hate to tell you but we survived many thousands of miles without ever being buckled in, back in the day

Blemonds said:

Yes

I hate to tell you but we survived many thousands of miles without ever being buckled in, back in the day

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Were your hands tied behind your back as well?

I still find it ludicrous that you actually believe the only thing keeping someone from breaking out of a police transport vehicle is the handcuffs. I mean, come on, you don't really believe that. Do you?

Objective Voice said:

With that, I'm out.

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You were out long before that.

Objective Voice said:

As I said before, there were only two occasions where Freddie Gray's neck injury could have been self-inflicted per the established timeline:

1) The initial 7 minutes between 8:39 and 8:46 prior to being shackled; and,

2) The 25 minutes from 8:39 - 9:24 en route to the police precinct.

Considering that there was no witnesses to hear him banging his head against the wall during the initial 7 minutes, I think it's safe to say the alleged head banging had to have taken place between 8:59 and 9:24.

According to the timeline (and the preliminary investigation report):



Granted, Gray was able to speak to police on the scene at the third stop reported at 8:59 and it's at this point where Gray would have been able to bang his head against the wall AND be heard/observed by Donte Allen, the 2nd detainee. But by the fourth stop (which doesn't have a time stamp), he's found to be "unresponsive on the floor" and is "no longer breathing". How long was it between the time Donte Allen was picked up and the police found Gray to be unresponsive on the floor and not breathing? That's the question that needs to be answered. Furthermore, if Gray's neck injury did take place at 8:54 per the timeline - at least 5 minutes before the 4th stop - it's highly unlikely he'd be able to bang his head against the wall at all at this point.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out because I don't think this case is as cut-and-dry as some folks believe. There are questions that need to be answered. If it turns out that Gray did injure himself because he was throwing a hissy fit in the back of the van, then Baltimore, MD and the nation gets to close the book on another "thug" who in the minds of many "got what he deserved" and those who believed he was wrong from the beginning will get to say, "See, I told you it was his own damned fault". But if it turns out to be negligence on the part of the Baltimore PD, maybe this case will prompt them to amend their detainee security and transport safety procedures (again, as necessary).

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And you were wrong and it was shown why you were wrong.

The occurrences in the timeline you use is not supported by the evidence that has been revealed to us.

Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

Lursa said:

No, not at all. Do you live in Baltimore? I dont. And yet we both seem interested in the outcome and are part of the public that is kept in mind.

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Come on Lursa, I answered that little attempt from you to disqualify my POV on this situation....I will further state, I have family on my wife's side, along with nieces and nephews, great nieces and nephews that live in that city....Face it, Balto has been under demo control for the better part of the last century, and these policies are responsible for what is going on there, yet they, and YOU still try and blame someone, or something else....

Gonzo Rodeo said:

Were your hands tied behind your back as well?

I still find it ludicrous that you actually believe the only thing keeping someone from breaking out of a police transport vehicle is the handcuffs. I mean, come on, you don't really believe that. Do you?

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Bottom line, you prefer to passively sit and wait for others to come to your aid while I would prefer to have the opportunity to help myself. Wouldn't you know that exemplifies the difference between conservatism and liberalism?

Blemonds said:

Bottom line, you prefer to passively sit and wait for others to come to your aid while I would prefer to have the opportunity to help myself. Wouldn't you know that exemplifies the difference between conservatism and liberalism?

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You would still be waiting in the back of a locked cage. The seatbelt changes nothing except the level of danger you are subjected to during the ride.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

You would still be waiting in the back of a locked cage. The seatbelt changes nothing except the level of danger you are subjected to during the ride.

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That's your opinion and demonstrates your willingness to put your trust in someone else for your well being. I happen to hold a different perspective