A_Wise_Fool
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Says you. I have proof on my side, keep reading..There needn't be trillions of intermediary.
I'm aware of cotton-swabbing bacteria between flasks and how it's done. I've done it myself.The fact that you need trillions on a petri dish is simply that you need colonies in order to actually be able to see the micro-organisms.
Says you again, and you are wrong again. Here is why.What is more relevant is not the number of cells but rather the number of generations that it took to reach the desired evolutionary result.
The only thing that matters is the number of mutations. This can be amplified by either number of generations or number of reproductions per generation.
If a stagnant population of 100 bacterial organisms have 50 generations then that is 5000 potential chances for mutations and thus that many chances for evolution to occur.
But two generations of a stagnant population of 1,000,000 bacterial organisms then there are 1,000,000 possible chances for a mutation to occur.
I still understand the relationship between generations, such as it takes several mutations to derive a new benefit sometimes, like in this case apparantly. But, mathematically, the odds of a new mutation occuring on top of an old mutation further up the family tree are just the same as them happening all at once.
So, the number of cells is just as relevant as number of generations. If there were only one bacterium per generation it would take trillions of generations to produce a similar result that the expirment resulted in. Keep reading before you respond to that one....
Let me explain something else first. Transfering generation from generation in the experiment was done with cotton swabs like it said. Since I've heard that our hands are home to billions of strands of bacteria I would assume that cotton-swabbing a dark area full of bacteria in a flask would transfer a net of about 500,000 bacteria from flask to flask each time. At the very least, it cuold be way more. So, anyway, at each generation we have half a million chances for mutations at least.
Now to play with math..
1/2million bacteria per generation * 12 colonies * 31,500 generations =
189,000,000,000 ... bacterial reproductions, or chances for mutations, before we got the ability to metabolize citrate.
If any one of those devoloped a positive mutation it would quickly permeate the colony based on its mutation benefit factor and it would be survival of the fittest; you know how that works. The rest is history. From what I read I think it took around 500 generations to permeate the colony, not that it is important.
So out of 189 billion reproductions we got a new trick that sortof benefitted the bacteria. Very low odds for something comparatively so simple.
Finally, and I hope you took my advice and havn't started responding yet...
The Loom : A New Step In Evolution
Out of that staggering hoard of bacteria, only a handful of citrate-eating mutants arose. None of the original ancestors or early predecessors gave rise to citrate-eaters; only later stages in the line could--mostly from 27,000 generations or beyond. Still, even among these later E. coli, the odds of evolving into a citrate-eater was staggeringly low, on the order of one-in-a-trillion.
So there you have it. The authorities admit it is an astronomically low chance of developing this ability, and fairly closely match my estimates. I'm going to go ahead and assume the same odds exist for any other comparative metabolism ability, call me out on that one if you wish with proof otherwise.
So roughly my 1.8billion mutations out of their ballpark 1trillion attempts figure puts the odds at about 1/5 that over 20 years some complexity would evolve in their controlled experiment. They played the odds and won and published a story about it.
Good for them.
It proves evolution, and it proves something as complex as a human could have never evolved in the time frame given like I have always said. So sad. Case closed.
I don't really know but I though this was due to a lack of a properly functioning amino acid correct? That would make it less complex correct? I'll look that up later.There is only a single amino acid difference between those who have sickle cell and the rest of us. Let me re-emphasize that a single amino acid. There is not that much variation between humans and chimps, we have 99% of all our genetic material identical. But one of the reasons why AIDS was able to cross the species barrier.
But if I am correct, then the E. Coli did not devolop this new trait due to becoming less complex like your sickle cell example, so this proves nothing and has no application.
Edit: after rereading what you said in my comparison from the "early ancestor's" brains and our currnet brains I would simply say that if the complexity was still there a million years ago, then just push back the time frame. The complexities of our brains still needed time to develop whenever it supposedly did. And I guarantee it did not have the trillions of attempts necessary to do so...
That was a joke. It's still quite complex. But its infinitesimle compared to the brain. Many millions of times I would assume.Highschool equation? Have you even the faintest idea of the biochemical complexity of being able to metabolize something completely different? Tell such rubbish to someone who is lactose intolerant.
That joke was to make an ephasis on the comparitive complexity of something simple whchi took trillions of tries verses our brains, which would have to take many many more trillions of tries.
Yeah it is a contradiction... when you don't repeat what I said.So the mechanisms are sound but yet life is too complicated for evolution to occur? Talk about contradictions.
The evolutionary mechanism itself is sound but life is too complicated to have arisen given the time frame it was supposed to have evolved. Read what I said its still there.
Its like winning the lottery five times. Sure the mechanics of doing that exist, but given the time frame it won't happen.
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