Award-winning Native American Actress Lily Gladstone explains why she uses she/they pronouns

[Phys251]

It isn’t. Just a misperception created after some gay native Americans got together in the early 90s and created the “two-spirit” mythology. It is not and never has been part of mainstream Native American culture.

The term is new. The concept is not.

Two-spirit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CLAX1911]

Disclaimer: I will be using female pronouns to describe Ms. Gladstone. You guys are free to refer to Gladstone as she or they.

I am not sure if you guys are big film fans or not, but Lily Gladstone stars in a popular film called "Killers of the Flower Moon". It's the latest Martin Scorsese film and you can watch it on AppleTV+. She recently won the Golden Globe for Best Actress in a Drama and considered the favorite to win Best Actress at the Oscars.

With all the debate about the legitimacy of pronouns, it turns out that Native American culture doesn't rely on gender pronouns and frequently uses gender neutral terminology. How is it that Native American culture is more accepting of non-gendered pronouns than the rest of America and Europe?



BTW - If you haven't seen Killers of the Flower Moon, I highly recommended it. Excellent film. Hits on a lot of themes we're experiencing in our society today.

'Killers of the Flower Moon' star Lily Gladstone says using she/they pronouns is 'a way of decolonizing gender'

'Killers of the Flower Moon' star Lily Gladstone says that using she/they pronouns is partly 'a way of decolonizing gender for myself.'

ew.com

This is something perplexing to me why would she only use she/they pronouns?

If she was talking about herself she would use me or I?

How would you use they to refer to a single person? This is my friend they is a public speaker? They has a cat they loves?

Or is it them is a public speaker?

 

[Lisa]

This is something perplexing to me why would she only use she/they pronouns?

If she was talking about herself she would use me or I?

How would you use they to refer to a single person? This is my friend they is a public speaker? They has a cat they loves?

Or is it them is a public speaker?

Reading is fundamental.

she uses she/they pronouns​

I or Me have no gender, so they are not male, female or non-binary.

 

[CLAX1911]

Reading is fundamental.



I or Me have no gender, so they are not male, female or non-binary.

She uses those pronouns for what to refer to a woman or a group? So does everybody that's how English works.

What you mean to say is she demands other people use those pronouns whether talking about her which is an absurd request.

 

[rahl]

Does that biology include the biology of the trans/NBs person brain, or are you another person who is going to try to ignore gender idneity and only focus on the person's genitalia and chromosomes to if the person is male or female?

That is what actually determines if you are male or female.

 

[CLAX1911]

Does that biology include the biology of the trans/NBs person brain, or are you another person who is going to try to ignore gender idneity and only focus on the person's genitalia and chromosomes to if the person is male or female?

The Brain and Gender Identity: Current Evidence and Implications for Practice (Podcast)

A psychiatrist with expertise in gender dysphoria explores implications of documented structural and functional differences between transgender and cisgender brains.

consultqd.clevelandclinic.org

Would that be the 1990s or would it be the 1490s?

Two spirit: History and meaning

Two-spirit is an umbrella term referring to Indigenous people who are part of the LGBTQIA+ community. They can have both feminine and masculine traits.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Technically it's the size of the gamete produced that determines a person's sex. But since there has never been a person in history with a naturally formed penis or xy chromosomes to produce a large gamete in humans it is chromosomal and anatomical.

In other species such as sequential hermaphrodites fish and amphibians is not chromosomes that's mostly in mammals.

 

[Lisa]

Technically it's the size of the gamete produced that determines a person's sex. But since there has never been a person in history with a naturally formed penis or xy chromosomes to produce a large gamete in humans it is chromosomal and anatomical.

Grammar and punctuation matter.

In other species such as sequential hermaphrodites fish and amphibians is not chromosomes that's mostly in mammals.

Please learn how to use commas.

 

[CLAX1911]

Grammar and punctuation matter.

I used correct punctuation and grammar. Maybe try adding the point.

Please learn how to use commas.

Where?

 

[BrotherFease]

Just so you know, Gladstone just won the SAG tonight for Best Actress.

 

[Aristaeus]

She has indicated that you can reference her by both feminine or neutral pronouns.

So she is both a woman and not a woman? Schrödinger's woman.

 

[ThirdTerm]

The binary nature of two-spirit, or the idea of having two spirits in one body, is not a theme found in the traditional gender roles for Native people, and concerns about this misrepresentation have been voiced since the 1990 conference where the term was adopted.[6][18][11] Traditional Native Americans asked about the concept rejected the "Western" gender binary implications of the term "Two Spirit", such as implying that Natives believe these individuals are "both male and female".[11]

This is what is called gay propaganda in Russia, which is destroying traditional cultures. Traditional Native Americans rejected the "Western" gender binary implications of two-spirit. The concept of LGBT was adopted from liberal white culture and it never existed in Native American culture until the 1990s.

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't know where these people get the idea that they can tell other people what language to use to describe them.

 

[VanceMack]

She is a she, but they is a dumbass.

 

[CLAX1911]

She is a she, but they is a dumbass.

I would go farther and say she's an asshole. She's attempting to dictate to other people how they must refer to her when she's not around.

And if you don't a collection of assholes and narcissists will try and bully you into referring to her improperly.

This is authoritarianism and the best way to combat it is to resist.


So is heartfelt as I can say this **** you to the moon Lily Gladstone.

 

[BrotherFease]

So she is both a woman and not a woman? Schrödinger's woman.

Did you read the original post?

Native American culture doesn't rely on gender specific pronouns. Gladstone is not arguing she's not a woman.

 

[CLAX1911]

Did you read the original post?

Native American culture doesn't rely on gender specific pronouns. Gladstone is not arguing she's not a woman.

That's fine if they don't but English has gender specific pronouns. I don't speak Navajo or Sue or whatever language she speaks or she's referencing so why would she tell me how I need to refer to her because of a linguistic thing that is outside of the languages I speak.

It doesn't make sense.

Yeah I get that she's not arguing that she's not a woman, she's arguing that English is wrong and no.

 

[BrotherFease]

That's fine if they don't but English has gender specific pronouns. I don't speak Navajo or Sue or whatever language she speaks or she's referencing so why would she tell me how I need to refer to her because of a linguistic thing that is outside of the languages I speak.

It doesn't make sense.

Yeah I get that she's not arguing that she's not a woman, she's arguing that English is wrong and no.

Pronouns are social in its inception. It's all about being respectful. Native Americans speak both English and their own language. They have social preferences. There's no victim in somebody telling others how they would like to be referenced by. If you call Gladstone a "he", she's not going to call the cops on you.

What you wrote is simply incorrect. The English language does not only use masculine and feminine pronouns.

 

[CLAX1911]

Pronouns are social in its inception.

well yeah all language verbal and nonverbal is how we go as far as to say all communication is even outside of our species.

It's all about being respectful.

no it isn't. When you're in the presence of somebody you say you or their name you don't refer to them in third person pronouns that's rude. So the only time you would be referring to someone in third person pronouns is when the person you're referring to isn't around. And there's no way to respect them with language like that when they're not around.

So it 100% does not about respect. I don't know this person I've never met her I don't even know what she looks like. She hasn't earned any respect.

Native Americans speak both English and their own language.

That's fine. More power to them. In fact I like learning about languages and other cultures and stuff that's kind of cool but it's not my culture. And I don't have to participate in it or pay late service to and I'm not going to.

They have social preferences. There's no victim in somebody telling others how they would like to be referenced by.

are you kidding me? It is the most narcissistic self-absorbed self-centered thing to do to tell other people that you don't know how they must refer to you when you're not there.

I'm not a victim by this but I'm not doing it. Self aggrandizing jackasses can **** themselves.

If you call Gladstone a "he", she's not going to call the cops on you.

I know I just called her a self-agrandizing jackass. There's no way she could possibly know it's a conversation she's not part of that's when you use these pronouns so to think you can dictate to others how they must refer to you when you're not talking to them or even around them is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

What you wrote is simply incorrect. The English language does not only use masculine and feminine pronouns.

you are correct.
Here's a list of pronouns that make no reference to sex.
I, me, we, you, them, the, us,

All these pronouns have a certain usage and I can't dictate to you how you must use these to refer to me.

If I decided that the pronouns I want used to describe me when I'm not in the conversation is we and us. That would be supremely confusing wouldn't it?

The language works the way it works. If there is a reason to change it we change it it's not a set in stone thing. But some self-absorbed jackass telling me how I must refer to them when I'm not in a conversation with them is not going to happen.

I'm going to use the language the way people understand it because I don't want to go into this stupid explanations about wackadoodle gender identity nonsense.

That is a subculture that is unimportant to me.

 

[VanceMack]

Did you read the original post?

Native American culture doesn't rely on gender specific pronouns. Gladstone is not arguing she's not a woman.

Native culture also saw Indians eat defeated enemies and rape and enslave their women and children.

Back then.

 

[CLAX1911]

Native culture also saw Indians eat defeated enemies and rape and enslave their women and children.

Back then.

I have to interject here and I'm sorry but the culture they're keeping alive today is the good part minus the cannibalism. We shouldn't judge people on past cultural actions it's like saying Christians are bad because of the crusades of the Spanish Inquisition no that was a different time and those people aren't alive today.

They're keeping up the Renaissance version of their
culture. That's good. Distilling out the bad parts and leaving them in the past is what all cultures should do.

I don't think issue with you cultural part of it I don't believe it because native Americans were a tribal people and members meant survival so they would have had very specific gender roles and they would have been far more important than than they are today.

 

[VanceMack]

I have to interject here and I'm sorry but the culture they're keeping alive today is the good part minus the cannibalism. We shouldn't judge people on past cultural actions it's like saying Christians are bad because of the crusades of the Spanish Inquisition no that was a different time and those people aren't alive today.

They're keeping up the Renaissance version of their
culture. That's good. Distilling out the bad parts and leaving them in the past is what all cultures should do.

I don't think issue with you cultural part of it I don't believe it because native Americans were a tribal people and members meant survival so they would have had very specific gender roles and they would have been far more important than than they are today.

Point being I highly doubt the Indians from then were using plural English...or for that matter pronouns...an certainly not fabricated pronouns. Lily Gladstone is grandstanding...Look at MEEEEEEEE...I'm so WOOOOKE.......LOOOOOOOOOOVE meeeeeeee!!!

 

[CLAX1911]

Point being I highly doubt the Indians from then were using plural English...or for that matter pronouns...an certainly not fabricated pronouns. Lily Gladstone is grandstanding...Look at MEEEEEEEE...I'm so WOOOOKE.......LOOOOOOOOOOVE meeeeeeee!!!

Agreed, they must likely had very defined gender roles specifically for women. As one man can create a hundred new tribe members with a hundred women but a woman can only do one. They likely didn't risk them in battle, hunting, or dangerous jobs. A tribe wouldn't survive without it.

I don't believe for a moment this was a thing. Maybe for men because they are not as important evolutionarily speaking. Women needed to be keeping the numbers up.

A lot of this woke (Marxist let's quit using the fake words) garbage is just taking one random thing from history and making it all something was about.

Think about Cleopatra the only thing people talk about is whether she was black or not. Not what she did or who she was but if we can use her as a Marxist icon.

Woke=Marxism

 

[Aristaeus]

Here's a very good argument that I recently read:

"There is a kind of philosophical problem involved. The purpose of language is to bridge the gap between separate human minds, communicating information through shared conventions - like common definitions of words and acceptable grammar. That is, it’s inherently a two way street requiring cooperation. In that context, for whose utility do we have & use pronouns - primarily the speaker, the listener or the person being discussed?

You and I could be discussing somebody who is a thousand miles away and whom neither of us will ever meet - if we use a gendered pronoun in our communication, should that be between the two of us who are negotiating common language, or is the third party we are talking about the primary “owner” of the pronoun? Who chooses whether we use “woman”, or “lady” or “female” to informally refer to the third party who is not present?

The traditional answer is that the speaker and listener get to choose their common language to suit their communication. If the word in question is gendered, the speaker usually makes a choice based on how they read the person. It’s their speech and they control the words they use.

Some modern advocates of personal choice in pronouns believe that the person being referred to should have sole and complete control of the pronoun that others use for them. That is, they are asserting a newly forged right to control other people’s pronoun usage. That’s a radically new linguistic concept."